Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles REDDING TYPE S FULL BUSHING DIE VS FORSTER BUSHING BUMP NECK SIZING DIE

What, if anything, is the difference in function of the Redding Type S Full Bushing Die and the Forster Bushing Bump Neck Sizing Die?

I want to try one or the other of these with my Blaser R93 .22-250 heavy target barrel. I know there is controversy over the need for such dies but I have decided to try a set anyway and I just want to make sure I correctly understand each of their function before I decide between them.

The Blaser bolt collets probably allow slightly more case head set back on firing than a Mauser type turnbolt. So I don�t want to neck size only for a Blaser and I don�t want to have to split neck sizing and setting the shoulder back a couple of thou into two operations.

Have any of you got any direct experience with either of these dies?

My understanding is that the Forster only neck sizes and bumps the shoulder, no sizing of the case. The Redding sizes the case/neck and bumps the shoulder.Rick.

Ricksmith,

Thank you for explanating the difference. I thought that might be the difference between FL size and bump, but didn't know for certain.

Do you think that a neck-bump die like the Forster, if used correctly as you describe, would be appropriate in assembling hunting ammo where reliable feeding and chambering are critical? Or would something like the Redding be indicate to assure hunting reliability?

I`ve used a lot of neck sized loads for hunting but always checked their functioning in my rifle prior to the hunt. I`ve never had one that didn`t run through the rifle just fine, but always start with a case that has only seen 1-2 firings for hunting ammo.
You shouldn`t have any trouble hunting with NS cases, just run them through the action after loading to be sure they fit. (in a safe place, not your kitchen ;))

Most of my hunting ammo is just neck sized and all is done with a Redding Type"S" neck bushing die. I shoot often enough to know when cases for a certain rifle are getting snug to bolt closure and then will PFL on the next loading.Rick.

I use the Forster Bushing/Bump die for my 6BR. Have reloaded the cases five times so far, and have found no need to FL or body size the cases. I set my die up to bump the shoulder 0.001". I remove the neck bushing and use the die body itself to measure the base to shoulder distance. Most who use the die do not use the expander ball. However, I do, but it only opens the neck up about 0.0003". My theory is that it is more important to have a uniform ID than OD. Further the way Forster design their dies, the ball is located up very close to the neck to minimize any runout induced by the expander. Also, I adjust the bushing up so only about 2/3 of the neck is sized.

I'm quite happy with the way the Forster works, and can recommend it without hesitation. The common issue I hear with the Redding is that their bushings are inconsistent in size and may not be what is stamped on them. I guess if you buy enough of them, you find one that works.

You may find this thread in another forum of interest.

Redding vs Forster Dies

I believe the rumors concerning the Redding bushings being inaccurate are merely a result of the different thicknesses in the different brands of brass...plus when the necks get a bit work hardened, they don't end up measuring the same as the bushing size.

Don't know how many bushings the bushing boxes hold but I have over five boxes of them and never a problem. Have to agree with JStor.Rick.

It is not a problem if you have a full box of bushings. But if you only want to buy one bushing and have it work, then it becomes a little more important that the bushing measures what it says it is. I also think part of Reddings issue may be that they are trying to supply bushings that produce necks that measure on the OD what the bushing size says. To do that they would have to make the bushing smaller to allow for springback. And, depending on the hardness and thickness of the brass in the neck springback can vary. That said I prefer the Forster method which is to provide a bushing that measures what it is stamped, and you have to allow for springback.

Ron, only problem with the idea is that you don't know how much spring back you are going to have with each firing of the brass. More firings, greater work hardening less springback. Annealing will also change springback. I could go measure a bunch of my Redding bushings and report but since they all work for me, don't think I will do that.Rick.

Not sure it is that complicated. Up to 5 loads 0.001" seems to be pretty close for springback, and I will anneal now, so I can't see it changing in future. But, then I use an over sized expander ball as well as a bushing. It compensates for increased springback as the brass work hardens.

You are working the necks twice with each loading, size it down and expand it up. You are depending on your oversized expander ball to give you the desired tension. Do you have to special order oversized expander balls? Why not just use the correct bushing and do away with the expander ball? Do you use the expander ball to compensate for differences in thickness of the neck? Have you tested loads done different ways at the range? Just wondering. If I want to make a change to my normal loading routine I usually test several groups to see if it makes a worth while difference. I try to avoid the use of expander balls but if I have to use them I first polish them to a mirror finish and use a dry lube.Rick.

Yes working them twice but very slightly compared to most standard dies. The neck of my Savage 6BR is quite tight at about .2715" They come out of the gun fired around 0.270 to .2705". I size them down with a .267 bushing, so they are coming down about 0.004", springing back another 0.001", and according to some measurements I've taken, the expander ball is opening them up a further 0.0003". Some of my other cartridges are worked three times that much. Yes I could use a different size bushing, but they come in 0.001" increments. If I went to .268" I think the bullet would fall out. I have a .266 bushing to give more tension, but I have not tried it yet. I would not be able to use the expander ball if I go tighter, or I would just lose the extra tension and work the brass more.

Yes you can special order the oversize expander balls from Forster. They come in 0.0005" increments. My thoughts on using the expander ball is that the ID is more critical than the OD. If there is variation from case to case I would prefer to see it on the OD. I also use a dry lube on the ID -- a bore brush dipped in graphite.

No I have not done any testing with and without the expander ball. The loads are very accurate but I am getting an unexplained flyer about once in every 10 shots. Three consecutive groups below shot at 100 meters, but when I get a flyer it does not touch the other holes and opens the group up to about 0.5" or so. So when the snow goes I will have to try some rounds with and without the expander. Will also have to try some with the .266 bushing and the extra tension in the neck.

I know the benchrest guys frown on the expander ball, but I suspect they are thinking of it in the conventional die. I think a standard .243 die sizes the neck much smaller and expands it back out quite a bit. My guess would be that a standard ball is likely around 0.241".

Thanks for the explanation, makes good sense. I started marking flier cases with a sharpie at the range. Load them and shoot again, if they again cause a flier, the brass is just used to foul the barrel.Rick.

That is a good idea, and I'll probably give that a try too. My only worry is that I might convert my whole lot of brass to foulers!

I don't expect to use just one bushing size. I first size down to no more than .005 at one time, then go from there with whatever finishing size I want. No expander balls are used. This is for neck dies, but I do the same with a full length S-die in .30-06.

On a .308 I size to .339 first, then go to .335 for Lapua brass or .334 for Winchester brass. I haven't tested, but Redding claims runout is induced if sizing more than .005 or so at one time.

The exception to this practice would be Lapua .223 brass. The stuff I have has a thick enough neck to get resized to .250 and it's ready for bullet seating. Winchester brass would get the .250 bushing first, then a .245 or .244 if I wanted to use it in an AR15. It is way thinner than Lapua.

My best results are using the Lee Collet die for neck sizing and the Forster Shoulder bump die without the bushing. I have had poor luck with bushings in dies.

I've done the same thing on my 308. I sometimes think that we overthink this die thing a bit. A good friend of mine shoots on the national palma team...he uses a standard hornady fl die for sizing his brass...I think it's been tweaked a bit..but works for him.