Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Further discussion of the 223 Ackley Improved

To begin, I am not sure I have a specific purpose for the round other than wanting one. I am torn between a 204 Ruger and the 223 A.I. The dilema is I am shooting left handed. I have a wonderfully accurate 223 but it's a Savage. Things are very rare in a lefty and I've always been partial to Remingtons. It's taken me several years and dollars to build a collection of lefty rifles, and I'd like to get a few more "upgrades".

Since moving to western Washington, I may never shoot another coyote again, but I have taken a few truckloads in my prior life. Even in the plains of southern New Mexico, I really only zapped a few over 300 yards. Most of the time as you lifted the rifle the yellow eyes and flapping tounge just get bigger and bigger, until he rolls at your feet. But I did hate all of the Jello that leaked out and ruined several pairs of boots. No, I didn't skin many, I just didn't want to leave carcasses everywhere. So I like fur friendly or at least less leaky.

Anywho, it seems as though Remington is going to offer a "New for 2004" which really means maybe by 2006, a left handed Remington CDL in a 223. I already have 2 700 in 22-250. I though maybe I'd snatch a small bolt face when I could find one, if I can.

I did follow the post below. I understand that you can skew any argument with stats, but the 204 sounds really amazing.

With a 204 of course I'd need to rebarrel and pay a smith, so I'd be out a few hundred. I am leaning toward a 223 AI mainly to run some type of 40 grain bullet and have a little bit of fun reloading. Can I maybe get teh factory barrel AI'd for under $200 and try and shoot it out before moving on ??

Can anyone chime in about any bugs incurred with the 223 AI and what real world velocities are ??? Can dies be obtained for less than $100 a set ?? What is IMI brass ?? Also, I've heard for an AI to be set up properly, you cannot shoot factory, "regular 223", in it to fireform without headaches.

I am going to focus on bobcats this fall. I've never shot one before and would like a good calling rifle that isn't going to blow apart my trophy. I may alreay own that rifle, but have some "sock drawer" money burning a hole in my pocket and love new stuff.

Hey Jesse,

I guess I'm qualified to answer a few of your questions.

First of all, if your gunsmith sets up the headspace correctly, standard .223 Remington ammunition will fire perfectly in a .223 Ackley chamber. Usually with surprisingly good accuracy.

Actual ballistics? My standard load in my three .223 Ackelys is a 40-grain Ballistic backed with 30.3 grains of H-335. I'm running a 21-inch barrel and two 22-inch barrels. Surprisingly, the 21-inch Schnieder barrel is the fastest and it clocks 3980 fps (@ 10 feet) with the load. My 22-inch Schnieder has many thousands of rounds through it (you'd think I was fibbing if I actually told you how many) and it gets about 3950 fps with the combo. The slowest barrel is a Pac-Nor and it clocks a flat 3900 fps.

With Winchester brass, the maximum load in my three rifles is 31.0 grains with the 40 Ballistic. This load goes well over 4,000 fps in the 21-inch tube and just under that (call it 3960 to 3980) in the other two barrels. I don't use the max load much because it could be wicked in Wyoming at 115 degrees in the shade (and no shade).

Dies: I'd suggest Redding and you can pretty much pick your poison. Sinclair International (phone # 1-800-717-8211) has dies for the .223 Ackley Improved 40�. The Redding Deluxe die set, with a full-length sizer, neck sizing die and a seating die is listed at $98.70. Or you can buy a full-length die set (FLS and seater) for $61.70. Or you can buy the neck die set, with a neck sizer and a seater, for $61.70.

Personally, I like the Type-S neck-sizer and a standard Redding seating die. I have a body die (kind of a full-length sizer with no expander or decapper), but I've never used it. When cases get tight, I find that ironing out the base with a .38/.357 carbide sizer does the trick.

If you wanted a set like mine, the Redding Type-S neck sizer costs $50.25, the TiN .245" bushing is $17.25 (hardened steel - 73 series cost $9.75) , tungsten-carbide expander plug costs $17.85 and the seating die is $39.30. Sinclair may have a Type-S die set made up and it may save you some money, but the cost of the pieces is about $125.00 for this accuracy-oriented rig.

A question that you didn't ask: Is the .223 Ackley worth it? Let's put it this way; barrels last as long as the standard .223 (friggin' forever) and you'll never lust for a .22-250. Yeah, it's worth it.

Gun writers get issued basically unlimited supplies of .223 Remington ammo at the prairie dog hunts, so I use this for "morning ammo." And when the wind comes up in the afternoon, I shift to Ackley handloads. Yeah, Hell of a difference.

I used to use 40 Ballistics for prairie dogs and 50 Ballistics for coyotes/bobcats. Then, one day I got my ammo mixed up and whacked a half dozen Texas coyotes with 40s. They were bang/flop kills. Since that time, I've just shot 40 Ballistics for everything. I've killed literally hundreds of coyotes and many bobcats with the 40s. Man, they don't even twitch.....down and dead every time.

I have never (like NEVER) had a coyote or bobcat move a foot after receiving a 40 Ballistic in the .223 Ackley. Obviously, in hunting, sometimes positions are wrong and bullet placement is not quite right. Doesn't seem to make a difference. They just die.

Good luck in your quest. Be sure to let us know how you proceed in you journey.

Steve

Zapper-

Thank you for the lengthy reply. I kinda threw it out there as bait for you specifically. I fully intend to look up some of your previous articles in VHA. Did you pen any on the 223 AI specifically, as I recall one of your stories with the blue gun in it several times. I also recall a "scientific" study put out in VHA, around the same time as your article I am thinking of, from two guys who shot both 40 and 50 BT's or V-max I think, for an entire season. They had some formula for instant kills, 10 yard walk offs, and gotaways or something like that. I believe the final moral of the story was the 40 BT's or V-max were quicker stops than the 50 by some margin. I guess it's off to the garage to dig for magazines.

I really didn't think the AI would give actual fps speed like you are showing, ecspecially with such short tubes.

I will probably try a factory CDL if/when they ever hit the shelves. If the factory barrel is at least mediocre, than it will get AI's and maybe get the receiver trued and barrel shortened and crowned.

Anyone recommend a smith who can AI a barrel in under a year ????

Jesse,

Bait? Yup, and I rose to it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I have a whole article devoted to the .223 Ackley and a bunch of ones where I was just messing around killing critters that dreadfully needed it.

The article you want is in Varmint Hunter Magazine Issue #21 January 1997. The piece is fairly lengthy (prolly 6,000 words) and, like all my stuff, is straight from the shoulder. It's about the Pac-Nor barrel (great shooter).

Gunsmith? There are a lot of fine ones out there, but my favorite is Gordy Gritters, 1648 Cordova Avenue, Pella, Iowa 50219....Telephone: (641) 628-3044.

Gordy's work is PERFECT. He also loves gunsmithing and isn't out screwing around doing other stuff when you simply want your riflework done (not mentioning any names <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

No doubt about it, the .223 Ackley is a fast little stinker. I was a "shooting gun writer" and every muzzle velocity, load and group size I ever published was the real deal.

No doubt about it, the 40 Ballistics simply tip coyotes over, like furry silhouette targets. Dead-dead.

And it's amazing how many folks will not believe that it is a good killer. I suppose these that to some people it just doesn't seem reasonable that a 40-grain can kill as well as 50s (or heavier), especially on predators. Even my editor at VH, who has by this time killed maybe ten or twelve coyotes, is totally convinced that 40s will simply wound a song-dog. In my old age, I find that it is simply best to listen, smile and walk away (some folks KNOW and some folks don't....and I ain't never going to change that).

My advice is simply to try the 40s. I'll guarantee you'll stick with them.

Steve

JJ,
I followed Steve's advice in building my first 223AI, and was glad I did. You can pretty much take what he says to the bank.

If forced to choose between my 204 and my 223AI, my 204 would be down the road faster than it took to type this. fortunately that scenario is a LONG ways from happening.

The 223AI is a fantastic round, you won't be disappointed.

BTW, Grafs has Winchester Mil-Spec Primed brass on closeout now that would make superb 223AI fodder. Cases last a long time in the AI, but with Milspec you might not be able to wear them out given judicious loading practices.

Now, to depart from Steve's advice a little, I subbed Ramshot TAC for H335 and found nearly identical velocity and accuracy with a much cleaner burning, more stable powder. It doesn't do any of the wierd things that I've had H335 do when it gets hot out.

AA-2230, BL-C(2) and H-4895 are also super. Very non-judgmental cartridge.

You guys wouldn't believe the calls I get when a fella is just starting to fireform .223 Remington cases (or factory ammo) in his new .223 Ackley rifle. "Holy Crap, Steve, my standard .223 Remington fireform loads shoot half-inch. NO WAY will the rifle shoot this well as an Ackley."

It has been my experience that the .223 Ackley commonly shoots superbly with fireform loads. This makes it very practical to fireform and shoot prairie dogs at the same time. It makes perfect ecological sense; you can puff a case and stop a heart, all with a single squeeze of the trigger.

Anyway, Jesse, if you decide on the .223 Ackley, you will not be disappointed.

Steve

You guys and your .223 Ackley talk. I have the itch for something in an ackley version and have been mulling over witch cartridge for awile now. I almost called pac-nor today to have my .243 rebarrled to the .243AI but didn't. Now after reading this thread I think that my favorite rifle, a winchester m70 featherweight .223, that I've had since highschool and shot everything from praire dogs to cows with, will need the treatment. This has been my "luckiest" calling rifle in terms of number of 'yotes shot but they sometimes get back up again. I love the feel and familiarity of this rifle despite my hatred of "classic" style stocks but would like more knock down power. Twenty two - two fifty power and cheap ammo to use on praire dogs while fire forming sounds to me like having your cake and eating it to.

Pronghorn,

The .223 Ackley is a sickness and there is NO cure. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

Again, thanks for the prompt and articulate reply. It's odd in this highly public world of hunting. When your whole life revolves around hunting and hunting shows, camo clothes, rifles, rifles, rifles, Cabelas, and more hunting TV. I guess you's guys are the equivalent of movie stars to many. Having you and MD chime in personally is like getting a fan letter replied to by Tom Cruise. If I ever met Craig Boddington, I guess it would be like meeting Brad Pitt or something. Gordy Gritters would be like using the Personal Trainer for the Stars.

In all honesty, I have not talked to Gordy, but can only imagine he has better things to do than piss around with some nobody's factory barrel and AI it as well as true a receiver. Even if he did accept the project, it would probably sit leaning in the corner for a year or two. I've called your other gunsmith in your state and was kinda blown off. I am sure all of the work is top notch. IN another Hollywood analogy, I doubt I could get Jesse James to build Jesse Jaymes a chopper with a phone call.

Guess I am trying to feel out the next "up and comers" in the game, and get them while they are turning stuff out in under a year.

Hell, Remington still hasn't made the rifle yet. I was out looking for powders today and did buy some 40 V-max's for a standard 223 to temporarily scratch an itch.

I didn't think the Wincester 223 brass was that good, seeing as I throw away 400-1000 peices of it a week. I guess I need to be bringing some of it home.

"I didn't think the Wincester 223 brass was that good, seeing as I throw away 400-1000 peices of it a week. I guess I need to be bringing some of it home. "

Aaaaaaahh! Throw it at ME! Aaaaah!

Too bad you don't have a Savage. You could order a new barrel from Sharp Shooter and keep shooting your old one 'til the new one showed up, usually four to six weeks. Then, it's only about 10 minutes to swap.

Ugly is as pretty does.

You should be all right if you time your gunsmith need. Wanting a varmint rifle done in the spring is kind of iffy. Wanting a big bore in September is the same. So plan a little...say just after Christmas when it's too soggy to do anything but sulk, and I'm sure Gordy or the "other gunsmith" will be happy to fit you in at a decent price.
I do know that Gordy was advertising in Shotgun News for a spell earlier this year, which is a hint at when the slow time is for a gunsmith.

And yep, I'll probably go ahead and get me an Improved when I smoke the barrel I just got.

Friend Dave,

You know Gordy probably as well as I do. Very, very nice guy who would ALWAYS do exactly whatever the shooter wants. He is like I was in my thirty+ years of business; no job too small and the customer is my friend.

Steve

Jesse - give Mitch Vancura a call. His number's listed in the Poulsbo, Washington phone book under Vancura's Gun Works. Don't think you'll be disappointed. Knowledgeable with timely work. What more could you ask? Ward

COOL. Great tip and much closer to home for Jesse. Thanks Ward.

Steve

Jesse, like you I am a left handed rifle shooter and I too have been looking for a CDL in the .223/.222 bolt face. Never have owned a .223 AI but I do have a left hand 700 in a 22-250. Seems to me the 22-250 will do anything and everything the AI would do based on what I read on this and other boards. A friend is now shooting a .204 and it seems rather interesting. Truth is when I find a CDL .223 in 2006 as you say, I'm thinking about a .17 Remington or the regular old .222. I know the .223 will do anything the .222 will do but I've owned a right handed 700 .222 since 1968. It was the first gun I bought after the GCA 68 came out. I've waited so long for Remington to make the small bolt face so I could have left handed .222 I almost bet that is what I'll do. Course it will be a custom barrel. Since you said most of your coyote shots were up close (same thing here) a .204 or .17 Remington might be fun.
Regards,
W

Jesse, I'll chime in with my limited but very happy experience with this round. Unlike some on this board I love my Savage rifles and, for varmint work, shoot them by choice. I have (2) 223 AI's and both are on Savage actions. The first one is a solid bottom single shot 110. I shoots 40gr V-Max bullets at 3900fps into little 3 shot touching clusters. I could not be happier. It is wearing a Lilja SS barrel and has a Timney trigger. If your rifle is pre Accu-Trigger then I recomend the Timney....I have tried some others and the Timney is crisp and easier to get adjusted correctly. I know I have already stated I love my Savage rifles and with this next thought I hope you dont write me off as a cheap skate....when I decided to try the 223 AI it was because of all the great praise it receives on this board but I was not sure I was going to like it...so I bought LEE 223 Imp dies and they work fine...for about $24.(with shellholder) There I said it.....my name is Mark Hopper and shoot Savage Rifles and I own LEE dies. Anyway... the dies are working just fine. The rifle shoots GREAT and I liked it so much that I bought a new Stevens/Savage in 223 and immedately yanked the barrel, faced it off and re-cut the chamber for 223 AI and recrowned......that was last week...still haven't shot it yet. But I did kill 5 groundhogs in Ohio last night with the other 223 AI.

I am shooting 29.5gr of BENCHMARK,BR4 and 40gr V-MAX. It shot so well I stopped at that load. Like you, with my job I have access to ALOT of empty brass. We just switched to Winchester from Hornady TAP. All my brass so far is Hornady/Frontier. Free is good...and it seems to be working.

My advise is don't discount your Savage because of some opinions. It is a VERY easy rifle to work on, accessorise, and accurize. With the ease of barrel switching on Savage rifles you could have a 223 AI and a 204 Ruger and whatever else you want without alot of hassle and then you could shoot what you felt like shooting at that moment.....Just a thought.

Mark H

Moron me, Jesse, I didn't realize you had a Savage but were just griping it. Don't be ashamed about impeccable engineering taste. (Except that rear pillar/sear thing, and EVERYONE sells lawyer triggers these days that stink.)
I got a 223 barrel from Sharp, four week turnaround, I got the short throat and tiny chamber I wanted in a 1-8. I wasn't sure about the twist, but it worked out outrageous.
I didn't get an Ack because I have a BR.
I have two one-holer loads already, one for gophers using the Sierra 40 HP (cheap is good) and one with VM55s, the latter was the best load in my old barrel, too. And I haven't done anything resembling real load development. I am just in shock at what a death ray I have now...and the original barrel was no slouch, either.
So I would recommend you order a pipe from Sharp Shooter. End of story. If you wind up hating Improveds, you can always unscrew the thing.

I can also vouch for Sharp Shooter. I have not used any of their barrels but I have used their Savage recoil lug and purchased several misc parts from them. They are very easy to deal with and have giving me good service.

Mark H

Guys,

Was working with a friend and his .223AI this past weekend. We were forming AI brass with loads in standard .223 cases, and shooting at 50 yards. 24 of H322 and a Speer 50 TNT did a half inch and less. Velocity averaged a tad over 3300. The cases formed just fine.

My buddy has a pound of 2230 that we'll start playing with. Accuracy with the H322 was so encouraging that we'll burn the rest of the can (old lot) forming brass.

Mainframe

Call me skeptical at best, crazy at worst, but I can't warm up to this whole 223AI thing. I build my own rifles and a few for friends(a shooter/machinist who is a partner in a machine shop can be a dangerous thing). Anyway, I have built only two 223AI's at present, both on 700's, one was setup by the owner, I just chambered and installed the barrel. He says it feeds fine and shoots great,10 shots under an inch while fireforming brass with Win factory 45 grainers, the 40 round boxes from WalMart. The other one wouldn't feed. I made it feed but it took a lot of polishing and trial and error (mostly error). I have all the components to build another one for a friend on a stainless 700. I told him I would chamber and install the barrel but when it comes to feeding, he's on his own.
I have at present another stainless short 700 223 action, my own, a VLS stock and a new stainless Bevan King barrel in Rem Varmint contour with a 14" twist at 27"...... I can't get excited about the 223AI...but I have the reamer, and I have borrowed a 222 Rem Mag reamer and I have the dies. I just might build the 222 Rem Mag over the 223AI...seems to me it holds the same amount of powder as the 223AI and I know it will feed like it has eyes and I won't have to fireform. I have a couple 22-250's and two Hornets, I like 22 cal varmint rifles but this 223AI thing has me baffled. What the he!! is so great about it?....enlighten me

Just one thing. What about brass and quality of it for .222 Mag?
Glenn

I have 7 223AI's and am sweet on the chambering...............

'Stick and DX, what's the shortest barrel that you've got or used that gets the most out of the 223AI?

I just picked up, and am yet to fire, a 14" barrel for a Contender in .223. I figure that if the AI is worth it in the short barrel, I might go to it in a year or so, esp. if the .223 is a PIA without handloads.

20" is the shortest in my stable and I'm hip on it.

Burning 31grs of powder,doesn't require a meter of barrel length....................

Reading this is getting me pumped! My 223 Ruger has been at the smith for a few months now waiting to get reamed into a 223 Improved 40.

(Ackley never made a 223AI to my knowledge, therefore it is a 223 improved)

The typical minimal body taper and jaunty 40degree shoulder Improvement while largely semantics,is fitting tribute to P.O.,IMHO(say that fast).

That regardless of whether or not it were his baby.

I'm hoping my latest hits the Mail Box today................

I just bought a Rem 700 barreled action and had it rechambered to .223AI. I stuck it in an old Rem VS stock. Sighted it in today. First group using some Federal American Eagle rounds (3 shot) was .365". I can't wait to get some Ballistic Tips loaded and thump a jackrabbit or two.

Jesse,
Appreciate your post and want to thank Steve for the awesome replies.
Steve, I think you may have another convert.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I just took delivery of a new CZ 527 in 223. It might have to get "Steve'd". Preped cases yesterday, will load today and shoot this PM.
Our Coyote season opens back up in 12 days.. I'll be there...
Thanks,
Don

Don,

Steve'd, I like that. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Steve

She arrived,in GRAND fashion.



Let's just say there is NO regrets......................

Mr. J.J.,
Before you make a big, expensive mistake see the July 2005 issue of "The Varmint Hunter" and read the article "The Tactical .20: A Fast, Furious, And Far-Reaching Varmint Cartridge" by Todd Kindler. This article lays it out so ANYBODY can grasp why this cartridge is the superior round among the .204 Ruger and .223 A.I. Factory ammo by Black Hills will be out very soon as well as Lapua brass

A pard shoots a 24" 20Tactical.

I'll take the 223AI greedily.................

I'm curious: Why would you take the .223 Improved over your pard's Tac 20?

Said pard also has a 223AI and a few 17Rem's to compare/contrast to the 20Tac. Point being,primers are popped with an open mind.

What the 223AI does for me mostly,is flat chew stuff up. 50's outta it at 3750fps fling goo in a way the 20 cain't.

I can also like the trajectory curve,drift values and energy retention,as well as the plethora of projectiles to choose from,so as to scratch any itch.

Have been doing the 1-8" Thing,flinging 75gr A-Max at 3100-ish fps outta a 21.5" tube and them results are impressive on a level the 20 can't imagine. 'Tis no secret I dote on the 53gr XLC or 64PP for Venison Duties,outta my more mainstream 1-12" twists.

The 20 just doesn't have the Juice and is a bastardized "tweener" IMHO. The 223AI can gobble up real estate and whoop some ass on impact and I can like that.

Then of course there are logistics,but the performance is sweeter to me,than the beaten path................

Well, he asked ... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah , well , I'd say personally observed "goo" factor is likely pretty subjective and subject to some preconcieved notions.

I highly doubt there is much if any diff in "goo" when a 39 gr .204 @3900fps will arive at 300 yards packing about the same 700 ft lbs as a 50 gr .22 at 3750fps . Especially when the .20 will arrive with an extra 250 fps , courtesy it's higher starting speed and superior b.c.

I am SURE that the .20 does gobble up the aforementioned real estate by a significant margin better than the slower and less efficient .22 .

Hey, I ain't got a dog in this fight - my comment was only in reply to Stick's reply; made in typical Stick fashion.

My theory is "dead is dead;" so "goo factor ain't that much of a thing just so long as the critter is hit, the bullet does it's thing, and the critter is bagged and tagged.

Sweetheart,you're all a twitter.

I simply stated,that as per my perceptions,founded by shooting the chamberings in question side by each,I really favor the 223AI for reasons mentioned.

Goo Factor is an observed calculation that isn't always denoted by numerical evaluators. Jacket thickness and RPM do factor in the Goo Evaluations too.

The 20Tac didn't do anything for me,up close or far away,with various V-Max and Berger's.

I've never seen a 17 or 20 fling with any enthusiasm nearing 22 levels. 'Course,I've never seen a 22 fling with 243 fervor either and as per my evaluations,a HOT 6mm is the Goo King on the average,because you've ass hauling velocity,melded with extry RPM and frangible jackets abound. Taken to extremes,I've had as many 22CHeetah's as I have 243AI's.

Things is easy,when you needn't guess and guessing ain't my gig...................

ROTF LMAO!!!!

Folks, this is a Stick CLASSIC! It SOOOOO needs to be a sticky or somethin'!

Since I am sitting here drooling, waiting for my 223AI to come back from the smith, I have a question for current owners.

How does it stack up against a 22-250? Can you come close to mimicking performance?

And what power scopes are you guys running?

Thanks!

It won't quite run with a 22-250 over the chrony, as the 22-250 just has more horsepower.

That said, the 223AI gets about all there is to be had out of the 22 bore. The 22-250 may look better on paper in pure performance, but in the field, the difference is modest. In my experience, the 223AI trumps it by giving nearly 95% of the velocity while going easy on barrels and allowing you to carry about 50% more ammo in your pocket.

To get any real performance increase over the 223AI in a varmint rig, you really need to step up to a 6mm of some sort.

Yes , a classic Stick-ism all right. Sly and witty as usual , and sure to impress a few of the loyal munchkins .

But in this case , lacking in merit or substance concerning the discussion .

It may be a surprise to some , but there are other folks that have seen small critters shot with .22 bullets of like speed , and also .20 s and .17 s. And our observations lead us to a somewhat different conclution .

The .223 Ack , good little cartrdge though it is , has been bested by the factory .204 in the trajectory department . Yet the .204 retains the attributes of low cost brass , modest powder consumption , and a slow rate of barrel heating .

Reguardless of your choice , a varmint shooter never had it so good.......

Bump

Holy thread resurrection!

This is really old stuff.

I quess I've got the best of both worlds a 22-204 (222 Rem Mag Imp. 30 degree), it works for me and no fireforming.

erich

So you did it!

How do you like it and what loads have you put through it?

It's my goto fur gun and it's a one load rig 40gr NBT's over enough H-335 to get them moving around 3900fps out of my 22" barrel. I've gotten 50's up around 3700fps but the rifle likes the 40's so much that's all I use in it.

erich

I see the 204 Ruger naysayers have been "SILENT" for some time now!
He-he!
And I see LaPua is still not producing 20 Tactical brass - still being 4 1/2 years later!
I did just perused my 2,009 Remington catalog and they make a BUNCH of arms for left handers but NONE in 204 Ruger caliber!
THAT is an over-sight that needs to be corrected.
The amazing all around Varminting performance, amazing ballistics (including amazingly flat trajectories and amazingly straight flight in the wind!), amazing lethality and amazing accuracy that is obtained with the FACTORY 204 Ruger is just hard to beat - VERY HARD TO BEAT!
I have owned (and still own them all!) five Varminters in caliber 204 Ruger and they have all shot groups (5 shots at 100 yards) under .600" WITH FACTORY AMMUNITION!
Then, my handloads will shoot groups that are just so much better and so rewarding.
Then, throw in the smaller powder charges, next to nothing recoil and no need to fireform cases and the 204 Ruger bests not just the 223 Remington Ackley Improved but virtually every other
all around Varmint cartridge ever conceived.
I have recently purchased 204 Ruger dies from Redding that cost me $31.00 - I see the SIMPLEST set of 20 Tactical dies lists at $102.00 and the 223 Remington Ackley Improved simplest die set is $114.00!
Hmmm... what could a reloader do with say and extra $83.00 hussein obama proof dollars these days?
I can think of a LOT of things!
Hmmm... better performance and no super expensive dies and no fireforming - yeah this is a tough one..... oh yeah its so obvious - go with the 204 Ruger and don't look back!
Hail to the new King of "all around Varminting cartridges" - the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Please don't leave out the fact that the .224's have full varmint bullets from 30-75 grs and bullets made specifically for big game.

Also a 1-8 twisted 223, 223AI or 222 Magnum can easily run 40 to 77 grain bullets.

The 222 Magnum requires no expensive dies, dupes the 223AI and those 204 cases just require a pass in a Mag FL die, adjusted for a shoulder-snug fit. If hell-bent on a headstamp, cases are out there.

The 204 is grand, but it has a way to go.....and the 22-250 hasn't even been brought into the picture.

No custom dies for the 22-204, 6mm-204 or 25-204. I use a Redding 204 Ruger FL Bushing die and swap out bushings expander balls and stem to load all three with the same die. I did have to open the neck openning in the die to clear the larger necks. Talk about cheap. I seat with Hornady seaters from my 223, 243 and 250 Savage. I did have Hornady make me a custom FL sizer for the 25-204 because they're taperred expander ball is great and ait's just one pass from 20 to 25

AWS

Varmint Guy, you are wrong on two points. I have a thousand rds of .20 Tac brass made by Lapua for Dakota Arms, I think. Bought it from Graf & Sons. I Know Lock, Stock & Barrel carried it to.

Second, I have a set of Lee dies for the .223 AI and they only cost $25 + shipping from Midway. That's $6.00 cheaper than your .204 dies.

Tom

I'm late to this thread but have an 223 AI based on a Mini-Mauser action by James Anderson. Came to it really by Dogzapper's comments. Had it to western SD this past weekend with couple of hundred AI's loaded. Ran 50's at almost 3800 fps and they were smacking them way out. Ran out of those and switched to regular 223's, same bullet, same powder and case (and as I found at home before the trip the POI was also the same) for fire-forming and didn't miss a trick.

I'm impressed with the AI cartridge.

3800 is cranking. How long a barrel you have on that rig? Moly? No way my 22" will do that.

I have a Savage with a 26" 1x14 twist Rock barrel on it and the best I can do with a mollied 50 Nosler is 3753-73-27. That's using VV N-530 powder, Lapua brass and Wolf SRM primers. 3800 fps would be one hot load.

Tom

My 26" 12 twist/3 groove Pac Nor 223 AI pushes out a moly 55 NBT @ 3500 fps.....27.5/Benchmark in a Lapua...Win or LC case....safe load in my rifle....the AI chamber gives the std 223 just a nice boost...

Thanks FVA - miss print. It's closer to 3700 than 3800 fps and the barrel is 23". 40's do crowd 4 grand though. My partner shooting prone about ten feet away thought he could tell when I was shooting the AIs as opposed to fireforming the 223s as he said they "smacked" louder and harder. Interesting.

what load are you running with your 50's?

Rem 7 1/2s, H335 29 grs. and 50-gr Sierra Blitzs.

I just had my 1st, of many me thinks, 223AI completed and Im just in the fire form stage but I had the gun throated for the 75gr A-max. Seem this whole thread is about light weight bullets, my gun is an 8 twist.

Is there a reason that you guys seem to lean in the 40 to 50 grn weight class over the heaver stuff?

And this thread should be kept up top........

No, I'm not particularly into the fast-twist-heavy-bullet scenario not that there is anything wrong with that; my barrel is 1:12 which is probably a compromise twist and my loads come right from Dogzapper who is the AI aficionado here and who has probably shot more 223 AI loads than any here.

Seems to me that a 8 or 9 twist would let a guy shoot the 40's and go all the way up to 75's, almost no down side. My heavy 223AI has an 8 twist broughton and likes everythng I have shot in it, 50's were as light as I went. My light 223 is not an AI yet but seems to like 40's up to 60's. Both of these guns ae new to me so I have lots of load developement to do yet. But my 9 twist Pacnor shoot's the heck out of factory 40gr TAP ammo.

This is the exact load that I use with 55 gr soft points, BT's/VMax/BK's....excellent performance. The 26" 1:9 twist factory Savage barrel provides 3560 fps with this load.

Well, I started it some time ago. I went with a 223 AI. Kinda hodge podge thrown together, but it's been a "meat getter" since I've had it.

Went with a Pac Nor 1-8" twist. Found a McMillan for $250 and threw it together. I've tried many loads for it. It shoots a 40BlitzKing amazingly well. And it shoots the 75Amax pretty well. Not amazing at 200 yards, but it holds almost the same group size to 425 yards. Cna't get the 53 TSx to shoot very reliably though.

A bit put off with the fps. I've tried to chase other's load data, and I must have a slow rifle. Only a 21" tube I think. Brad turned me onto a 75 Amax load with Rl-15. I just tried 26.3 of RL-15 with a non-molied Amax last week, and it was too hot. Molied it seems OK, but this is in the desert and was 80+ at 4000ft. Think I am getting 2980ish. Honestly only about hot standard 223 Rem fps. This is will Winchester fireformed brass.

I shot some coyotes with it this season. But honestly, flopped around between 40Blitz, 55Vamx and 75Amax, in never really got a handle on pelt damage. I did send a few 53 TSXs into some coyotes. I really liked this bullet. Got stern to azzwhole penetration on one dog at 60 yards. But no mess. No mess on a broadside, and a bit of a mess through the back of the head while looking at the FoxPro in the mesquite on one. But that's to be expected on a face exit.

I am anxious for the Ruger Hawkeye in 204. I will grab one. And it may put the 223AI in the safe for a while. I still read all the posts I can on the 204. Many happy shooters. Still think I made the right move for down here in NM. .224 legal for lions and deer. The 223AI with a 53TSX is a great truck gun should one run across anything legal.

I'm running moly on all my 223AI bullets. 26.2gr of '15 gave me 3050 w/moly'd 75Amax in Lapua brass. My R-P brass took about 26.5gr of '15 to get the same 3050. This was all in my first 223AI. The second one (which I'm shooting now) is getting 3020 w/26.5gr of '15 and moly'd 75's, in Winchester brass. To be honest, I've only shot that load in it. I haven't tried to work up any faster. I shot the 26.2 load in that second rifle and it was slow. I bumped it up to 26.5 and it was close, and the load shot very well all the way out to 1K, so I haven't even gotten around to going hotter with it yet.

I'm going to revisit H-335 in this second rifle and see if I can get some more speed out of it, but if not, it's not a really big concern to me and I'm happy with how it shoots now. Both rifle's were built with 22" Rock Creek Barrels.

That's a good looking rifle JJ.

TAC was even better in my rifle, although slower. Of course metered very consistantly, but the FPS wasn't there. More like 2875ish.

Would have stayed that route, but with the local Sportsman's folding up, I've never found another can of Ramshot anything since. So I gave up. RL-15 meters good enough for knocking out 50 rounds here and there. And I am getting 100+ more fps.

Thanks for the load help Brad.

Brad - don't forget to try H4895 for the heavier bullets.

I am still working on the RL15 info provided previously.

Where are you starting and what are you considering Max?

From Hodgdon's website:
69 GR. SIE HPBT Hodgdon H4895 .224" 2.235" 24.0 2870 41,100 CUP 26.0C 3069 49,700 CUP

In two AR15's (24" & 16" barrels) and four 223's with 26" barrels, 25.0 seems to be the accuracy node for standard 223's.

The AI's can go a bit above that, but, please work up in your rifle/brass/etc.

Bringing this thread up a notch...and adding a little info on a recent build.

Had a Shilen Select Match 1:8 twist in .224 barrel here for a year or two because I could not decide which caliber I wanted to make it in to.

Gent on savageshooters suggest a 223 AI Long. So, with some new 204 Ruger brass, my trusty 223 AI reamer, I went to work.

Neck size the 204 to 223 size (which, makes it a 222 Magnum - what 204's started life as actually) and built the rifle.

The barrel contour is a light varmint/heavy sporter, which is what I wanted to build so that I could actually have a "carry" rifle.

By chance, I picked up 800 of the 80 gr AMax bullets at a sweet price, so, that put me in the shop with all the parts.

A new Stevens in 308 donated it's action for the build, after selling the factory barrel and stock. Did I mention that NEW actions, well, they actually suck. Not smooth yet. Oh well.

Results...not quite done with the final, final, final load workup, but, yes, as you guessed it, several powders do very well. H4895, H414/Win 760, Benchmark, and RL15. Currently, my 80 cases have RL15 loaded under the 80 gr bullets. NOT pushing the envelope, but velocity is in the 3050-3100 range now.

Accuracy is VERY good, as is expected.

Charge weights under the eighties?

Normal disclaimer - this was from MY barrel, from my reloading bench. Work up your loads for safety sake....and your sake too!!

SHOT VELOCITY benchmark
1 3033.2 25.5
2 3034.9 25.7
3 3056.7 25.9
4 3070.2 26.1
5 3064.3 26.3
6 3108.2 26.5
7 3147.1 26.7


SHOT VELOCITY RL15
1 3040.7 26.2
2 3052.4 26.4
3 3058.4 26.6
4 3091.7 26.8
5 3100.4 27

SHOT VELOCITY AA2460
1 2855.4 24.2 to 26.
2 2881.4
3 2914.9
4 2908
5 2946.7
6 2946.7
7 2948.3
8 2991.3

SHOT VELOCITY H414
1 2836.4 27.2 to 29.
2 2872.5
3 2892
4 2915.6
5 2948.3
6 2992.2
7 2992.2
8 3046.5

SHOT VELOCITY 24.5 - 26.3 H4895 80 gr Amax
1 2833.5
2 2910.3
3 2922.6
4 2933.4
5 2948.3
6 2948.3
7 3009.3
8 2997.8

Thanks!

No rifle chambered for such; just comparing.

Funny thing is, they appear to be spot on.....

Thanks again.

Nate

Nate - what are you comparing with?

A 1-9 222 Magnum (223 AI pretty much the same capacity) with 75 A-Max-77 Nosler bullets.

Friend is debating on a 22-204 or 222 Mag AI, again very similar to what you have.

222 Mag AI is exactly what I have. I used the 204 brass because it is more plentiful and a lot less money to buy.

Post how it turns out.

Shot the "Super Duece" at 1000 yards. 80 gr AMax's over RL15, well..were VERY good. Did not paper it, water filled 2 liter bottles were the targets of the day.

I have two Hart Barrels in 223 AI, Minimum spec chambers, zero freebore, .2245 throat both in 1-14 twists; one barrel is 23" while the other is 27".

With IMI brass, 7 1/2 primers, N133 with the 50's will stomp 3850 fps which is my Max load. With N135 with the 55's, I'm at 3650+. Subtract 100 fps for the 23" barrel.

With IMI brass, 7 1/2's, 40g Noslers, with N133, I am getting 4175 fps with accuracy that is simply hard to believe.

In my standard 223 with IMI brass, Minimum spec Match chamber, zero freebore, .2245 throat, 26", 1-14 twist hart barrel I and partner get the following with N135

40's-3900+
50's-3600-3650

N135
55's-3550

My loads with Benchmark mimick others, as you can see, Benchmark is SLOW compared to N133 and is even worse on the 55's. Benchmark is however extremely accurate, but no more accurate than 133 or 135.

For hard use on a target rich dog town, where I am firing as fast as I can load and acquire targets, I would opt for a ball powder to make it easier on the barrel...learned that lesson in the late 70's and early 80's...when very few shot dogs and the towns were miles wide and long.

Anybody tried IMR 8208 XBR yet? Purchased the Hodgdon 2010 Annual Manual yesterday and this powder, of course, is on the cover.

Copied this from Hodgdon's website:

36 GR. BAR VG FB IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.200" 25.4 3548 44,500 PSI 27.0C 3728 50,600 PSI
40 GR. NOS BT IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.280" 25.0 3433 41,500 PSI 26.7C 3659 50,400 PSI
45 GR. SIE SP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.240" 24.5 3287 41,700 PSI 26.8 3550 52,000 PSI
50 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.210" 23.5 3111 40,500 PSI 25.8 3407 53,300 PSI
53 GR. SIE HP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.200" 23.0 3032 41,400 PSI 25.4 3310 53,400 PSI
55 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.200" 23.0 3024 42,100 PSI 25.3 3268 53,100 PSI
60 GR. HDY V-MAX IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.250" 21.5 2857 43,500 PSI 23.6 3057 51,700 PSI
63 GR. SIE SP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.200" 21.0 2783 43,000 PSI 23.1 2995 52,400 PSI
69 GR. SIE HPBT IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.235" 21.0 2696 42,200 PSI 23.8 2959 52,900 PSI
70 GR. SPR SP IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.140" 20.0 2621 44,100 PSI 21.8 2797 52,800 PSI
75 GR. JLK VLD IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.250" 20.0 2538 40,800 PSI 22.7 2804 53,900 PSI
77 GR. SIE HPBT IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.260" 20.5 2535 41,800 PSI 22.8 2766 53,700 PSI
80 GR. SIE MK IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.550" 19.0 2456 44,400 PSI 21.0 2628 52,900 PSI
90 GR. SIE HPBT IMR IMR 8208 XBR .224" 2.380" 18.0 2270 45,600 PSI 19.6 2419 52,800 PSI

A thread and cartridge worth bumping.....

I hear good things about the chambering................

You gonna ask Rick for a user-name update? (wink)

Not yet......

Back from the dead thread.

Anyone run 60's? I have a 20" 9tw that I am playing around with 40nbt, 60vmax and 69smk.

I've shot a bunch in a SAAMI 8 twist 18" AR. I really like them on coyotes and had a friend use them in a .223 for his sons first deer. Worked great. Beyond expectations on the deer actually. Kinda boring on squirrels at the slow velocities out of the 18". I was using Varget but I have switched to TAC.

What is this 223AI you speak of?


What does the "AI" stand for?

I think it's "A$$hole Indicator" or something along those lines. Wife says I need one so it's at the smiths getting fixed up.

Are pitchers available?

Pondering reaming out a 15-16.5" (vais) encore bbl to AI....if it's worth it, at that length?

Probably not....

Usually ain't.

My Ackley is 18", and I feel like it was more than worth it.

Tag for 40gr NBT on Coyotes.

But is it enough gun?