|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
Fireformed 50 cases of .243 AI today from already twice fired Winchester brass. The loads were Sierra and Hornady 100 grain bullets with book max charges (for the parent .243) of RL-22 and H-4831 as listed in the respective manuals. The cases had been annealed by the candle method outlined in John Barsness� book �Obsessions of a Rifle Loony� and also here: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._re_quenching_after_annealin#Post4503090All 50 survived the transition without a single loss and they are all well filled out with sharp shoulders, so I anticipate the remaining 47 of this lot will do okay as well. Mule Deer had asked me to report back so I wanted to post this update.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
I Just shot 25 rounds today with virgin .325 WSM brass necked up to .358 (for a WSM), and annealed with the same method after necking up.
Got one split neck out of the bunch. Here's my question though, do you guys think you get fewer split necks by annealing before the first firing?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
I wouldn't think so. The last thing the factories do to a case is anneal. Well, except for maybe the headstamp.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,731
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,731 |
I annealed about a hundred 6ppc cases for my benchrest rifle because case neck tension was becoming hit or miss. You could feel the difference sizing and seating bullets. My gunsmith said to put them in a tray of water and heat the tops with a torch until they start to change color and tip them over into the water. I went to see Jim Borden with my benchrest rifle. He put on a barrel for me and I talked to him about my troubles... He said annealing brass was iffy. There's a rotary thing with 2 torches that does a fair job, but what I was doing would actually make things worse. I couldn't do it evenly. He said when the brass got that bad to chuck it and start again with fresh brass. I have not tried to anneal brass since. I figured shy of a $300 contraption, there wasn't a reliable way to do it. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
"I didn't get the sophisticated gene in this family. I started the sophisticated gene in this family." Willie Robertson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,675
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,675 |
May I suggest that many gunsmiths too can learn new things?
Jim
BE STRONG IN THE LORD, AND IN HIS MIGHTY POWER. ~ Ephesians 6:10
Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance,
and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
--Winston Churchill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,731
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,731 |
Gunsmiths can be wrong. Anyone can be. I agree with the logic in that it stands a good chance that I ruined a batch of brass. I saw this article I posted. Beyond promoting an automated brass annealer it does give temps and manages to support Mr. Borden in that my tray of water method is inconsistent. Even the little machine they promote doesn't look like it's rotating the brass in the flame. That would appear to be inconsistent too.
The article says you have to heat the neck evenly to 650 to 700 degrees for 6 to 8 seconds. I bought the paint that changes color from the welding store. I used it and did the water bath deal, but I agree that I couldn't have possibly heated them evenly with a torch.
In the last 20+ years of shooting benchrest style and forming 6ppc and .22ppc cases from .220 Russian Lapua brass, I have never split a case. After many reloads, the problem I have is neck tension goes south. That's why I had the interest in annealing. I want to bring the spring back to the case necks.
"I didn't get the sophisticated gene in this family. I started the sophisticated gene in this family." Willie Robertson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
I guess I don't understand the report, or what you are reporting? No if you fireform the remaining 47 cases without doing the candle trick and 4 split, we could make some sort of conclusion.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,090
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,090 |
Never tried the candle method on medium to large capacity cases but it works quite well on small cases. My opinion is supported by the results on target and seating resistance while reloading, nothing else.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,834
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,834 |
To prevent inconsistent heating, I've generally used Todd Kindler's annealing ring (Woodchuck Den), which mounts on your propane bottle and produces flames all around the case neck. Not sure if it helps, but it can't hurt. The way it works happens to have a lower flame temperature, as well, which seems to be more forgiving. HTH, Dutch.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
Mule Deer, the whole idea behind the candle (vs. a torch) is that you can't over-heat the brass, correct?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Correct. As I've mentioned it was worked out by a metallurgist. I've gotten very good results over the years.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
And as long as you hold the case by the head until it gets too hot to handle, you've got it heated enough, right?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
But be careful, you can overheat your fingers. Those cases get "too hot to hold" real sudden like! 
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
With me, it's past the "can" stage. If I can rig a way to use a drill and quickly get the cases in/out of the chuck and spin them over the flame, that'll be ideal.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
That's true, I don't have a baseline to go on since I annealed them all and then posted on that. About all one can say is a general conclusion that "twice fired cases, after annealing, survive fireforming". I cannot say that they would not have survived had they not been annealed.
I do have some .243 cases fired ten times. Maybe I'll anneal a few of them and fireform the annealed and some unannealed ones and see if the annealed ones make it and the unannealed ones crack.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,101
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,101 |
I can validate that Mule Deer's method works. I got a batch of once fired Federal 223 brass from a friend, all the same lot. I started getting a significant number of cracked necks (like 30%) on the 2nd reloads (3rd firing total), so I annealed the ones without cracks with a candle. I could feel the difference when I resized them, and they went 10 more firings without any neck cracks. After 10 firings I annealed them again, just because, and they are still going... I know it isn't AI'ing and fireforming, but it proved the process works to me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 82
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 82 |
I use a small propane torch to anneal brass but with a twist. I put the case base down in a bullet seating die and rotate it by hand slowly in the flame in a dimmly lit room, the die acts as a heat sink (no hot fingers). When the neck starts to change color i dump it and start another case.
I have also used this setup to anneal primed cases with no problems. The die never gets more than warm to the touch.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
ti takes very little heat to effect a softening effect on cart. brass
( I am a metallurgist by trade, just not practicing in Columbus !)
Look at a military 30/06 and then follow the same light color change.
It's just so much easier and quicker to stand a bunch or cases in water and hit them with a light propane flame.
I bet even a candle lighter would be enough, just a bit more cost.
I can't safely advise one hold a case in your fingers. They WILL heat quickly!
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
The reason one stands the case in water is to Not heat the case at all. It may harden it enough to hasten cracking.
The old standard was 1/2 to 1/3 of the case under water.
But trying to heat a big batch with one torch and then cooling at once will result in spotty ( and different ) hardness.
I've just always changed brass. But then my big volume days were in several different M-1's so I full length sized.
Loaded a couple times and then replaced brass
YMMV
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Per typical for the Internet a bunch of people have either never read what I wrote, or have misread it somehow.
The technique described was developed by Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist who writes frequently for Precision Shooting. He published the article in PS.
Fred worked out the method with heat-paint, which is one reason it works very well. The other reason is that the neck is constantly being turned constantly in the tip of the candle-flame, so it doesn't just get heated on one side, as often happens with a propane torch.
Since a bunch of people apparently feel free to comment on the technique without knowing anything about it, here it is:
1) Hold a cartridge case about halfway up the body with your fingertips (NOT the head of the case).
2) Hold the neck of the case at the tip of a candle's flame, turning it constantly.
3) When the case gets uncomfortable to hold, wipe it with a water-soaked cloth or paper towel. This stops the annealing process, long before any heat reaches the head of the case.
I can't recall how hot this gets the neck, but it's just hot enough to anneal without over-softening, as the old advice the heat the neck red-hot certainly does.
I have been using this technique for annealing for probably close to a decade, without any problems whatsoever, and like it a lot because it's simple and cheap. But a lot of handloaders like to make things complicated, I suspect because they use handloading as an excuse to get away from other stuff. If so, it's certainly a free country.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,471
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,471 |
Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist What the hell does he know? I read about a guy who knew a guy who had a 3rd cousin that read on the internet to do it a different way. 
Faith and love of others knows no mileage nor bounds. That's simply the way it is.
dogzapper
After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
Italian Proverb
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 21,810 |
Per typical for the Internet a bunch of people have either never read what I wrote, or have misread it somehow.
The technique described was developed by Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist who writes frequently for Precision Shooting. He published the article in PS.
Fred worked out the method with heat-paint, which is one reason it works very well. The other reason is that the neck is constantly being turned constantly in the tip of the candle-flame, so it doesn't just get heated on one side, as often happens with a propane torch.
Since a bunch of people apparently feel free to comment on the technique without knowing anything about it, here it is:
1) Hold a cartridge case about halfway up the body with your fingertips (NOT the head of the case).
2) Hold the neck of the case at the tip of a candle's flame, turning it constantly.
3) When the case gets uncomfortable to hold, wipe it with a water-soaked cloth or paper towel. This stops the annealing process, long before any heat reaches the head of the case.
I can't recall how hot this gets the neck, but it's just hot enough to anneal without over-softening, as the old advice the heat the neck red-hot certainly does.
I have been using this technique for annealing for probably close to a decade, without any problems whatsoever, and like it a lot because it's simple and cheap. But a lot of handloaders like to make things complicated, I suspect because they use handloading as an excuse to get away from other stuff. If so, it's certainly a free country. There is a problem with JB's method. To the anal-compulsive, gadget-hooked reloader (like me), this is way too simple and cheap. It might work, but where is the technical complexity and undecipherable instructions?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,090
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,090 |
Well, you can always fret about the variables of neck wall thickness or whether or not it works for nickel plated cases, and puzzle about doing it with Winchester AA hulls.
Just tryin' to help out...
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755 |
I guess I don't understand the report, or what you are reporting? No if you fireform the remaining 47 cases without doing the candle trick and 4 split, we could make some sort of conclusion.
I resize 7mm Rem Mag brass to .257 Weatherby. With new brass I've had no problem. With once fired brass the shoulder collapsed on 3 in a row. After using this annealing method, I only lost one of the remaining 17.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,735
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,735 |
So Mule Deer, can you or should you anneal nickeled brass?
My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
1) Hold a cartridge case about halfway up the body with your fingertips (NOT the head of the case). So, does this mean that if you hold the case at the head and wait until it's too hot to handle, you risk over-heating the brass?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
bigwhoop,
Yeah, you can anneal nickel-plated brass, but since the annealing temp of nickel is higher than for brass, the plating is likely to flake on the neck after a few loadings. But the nickel is really thin anyway. The main point is to anneal the brass underneath.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Smokepole,
Yep. The head of the case shouldn't be heated at all.
Brass cartridge cases are designed to be softer toward the neck, and harder toward the base. The front end is softer to both hold the bullet relatively gently but consistently, and to seal the chamber against gas blow-back. The head of the case is both thicker and harder, both to hold overall pressure and the primer.
One of the interesting things about brass (a copper-zinc alloy) is that unlike most metals, it does NOT require quenching in a cooler liquid after heating to remain soft. If, for instance, you use the older method of standing cases in water and heating the necks with a torch, there is no reason to tip the cases over to "quench" the necks. If you just let them stand there, they'll end up with just the same hardness as if tipped over. And you won't have to dry out the inside of the cases.
But it's even easier to just wipe off the outside with a wet paper towel after heating them in a candle flame.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
MD- So, after reading all the glowing (ahem) reports above I decided to try this annealing thing. I had some cases that were starting to get a bit brittle at the end from firing. I used them in trying the three-step process described above. I found a candle, and got some paper towels pretty soggy with water. (In view of what happened, I can readily see why wet towels are needed.) Here's what I did: 1) Hold a cartridge case about halfway up the body with your fingertips (NOT the head of the case).OK, check. Did that. 2) Hold the neck of the case at the tip of a candle's flame, turning it constantly.Again, check. I kept things rolling right along. 3) When the case gets uncomfortable to hold, wipe it with a water-soaked cloth or paper towel. This stops the annealing process, long before any heat reaches the head of the case.OK, did that. When the flames started to melt my fingernails, I wiped the end of the case with the wet paper towel, and that put out the fire. It also apparently stopped the annealing process, and I don't think the brass head got hot at all. As advertised, the annealed end of the case is no longer brittle. But something seems amiss, with the case missing that certain je ne sais quoi that most good usable cases possess. I made a photo so you all can see what I mean. --Bob ![[Linked Image]](http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/33132/AA-annealed.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 347
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 347 |
vires,fortitudo,vigilantia
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Bullshooter,
Obviously, you made the mistake of trying the method in a saloon rather than a more controlled environment. Though I salute the spirit of experimentation!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274 |
Steel I know pretty well. Don't know Brass so well, at least as far as metallurgy. What temperature was Mr. Barker trying to achieve, in heating the brass?
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
Smokepole, Yep. The head of the case shouldn't be heated at all. Well then, I guess I'm one of those who mis-read your method, I skipped right over the part about holding the case halfway up. My most humble apologies.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
better yet ...
hold it in you lips.
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 6,755 |
better yet ...
hold it in you lips. I'd pay a dollar for a picture of you doing that.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
better yet ...
hold it in you lips. I've got a better idea, hold "this" in your lips.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,150
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,150 |
BullShooter Now that was funny 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
better yet ...
hold it in you lips. I've got a better idea, hold "this" in your lips. queer
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
tex n cal,
I would have to find his article again to make absolutely sure, but I believe it was in the 650-degree range.
Heating it red-hot gets the brass to 800+ degrees, which makes it too soft.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,289 |
This is a quote from an article by Dr. Howell. "When the brass around the mouth reaches a temperature of about 660� to 665� Fahrenheit (about 350� Celsius, which equals 662� Fahrenheit), its surface becomes light blue � and this is as hot as you want to let it get."Here's a post from Dutch that helps explain the annealing/stress relieving process and the temps required. The last paragraph is particularly interesting. Bobski This is the best chart I have been able to find on the subject; and it shows you are right. There is a wide range of temperatures that apply. What's worse, 660F doesn't fit with this information AT ALL! ![[Linked Image]](http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01/images/phase_diagram.jpg) edited to add: Further, in the link below to an engineering manual, the annealing temperature for cartridge brass is listed as 800 - 1400 degrees Fahrenheit -- I suppose it's time to quit quibbling over 650 vs. 660 degrees........ http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wrought_copper_alloy_c26000_cartridge_brassThing is, I have annealed much brass using a 660 degree temp stick, and it WORKS. I get consistent, desirable results. What we do, may be "stress releaving" rather than true annealing -- which may result in the "dead soft" condition described by those who caution against overheating. If so, the 660 on the shoulder is probably the maximum to prevent the neck from going over the 800 degrees listed. FWIW, Dutch.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
� Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist � Good guy! "Teah. All right. Okay. Sure. Mm-hm. You bet."  ("in" joke)
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,909
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,909 |
I'm Catholic and spent much of my younger years "annealing"
Candles were lit.
Does this count ????????/
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,855
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,855 |
Only if you had Ecclesiastical Approbation.
Last edited by 5sdad; 03/29/11. Reason: found an "l" lying on the floor
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Yeah, Fred is a good guy! Good shot, too....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,022 |
better yet ...
hold it in you lips. I've got a better idea, hold "this" in your lips. queer Dude. I was talking about the candle. What were you thinking?
A wise man is frequently humbled.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,610
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,610 |
I read that article in PS back in the '90s I believe. Have been annealing that way since.
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths.
"there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser"
"the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
Couple of hints.
Keep the neck of the case pointed up a bit, otherwise the hot gas from the flame accumulates in the body of the case and makes it really hot very quickly, I think giving one a false sense that the annealing has had time to work.
Wiping each case with a wet cloth ala' Mule Deer's version does work best. It cleans the considerable soot from the necks but doesn't get any water inside the case if you want to load them that night.
The original post told how I fireformed 2X cases that had been annealed, but don't have a baseline of performance. So, I annealed six .243 cases that have been fired 10 times. I'm going to use the same full power load used previously and load six cases, also fired 10X, that have not been annealed.
If all six annealed cases survive I'll go ahead and anneal the rest of the batch of 100 and use'em up in the Ackley.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,551
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,551 |
Would this method work on primed cases? Would I have to resize after annealing? I'm only asking because I haven't a clue. grin
"I Birn Quhil I Se" MacLeod of Lewis
I Burn While I See
Hold Fast MacLeod of Harris
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
I would not use it on a primed case but that's just being extra cautious and not letting a primer get near a flame. In actuality the head of the case doesn't get nearly hot enough to set off a primer and if you use a wet cloth no water gets in the case to possibly kill the primer.
But I still wouldn't do it.
You can resize before or after annealing, neither procedure has much to do with each other except generally. All you're doing is relieving or "softening" the work hardened neck of the case to keep it from cracking.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
I don't see why it wouldn't work with primed cases, because the head of the case never gets hot. But I would be pretty nervous about getting a primer anywhere near an open flame!
No need to resize cases after annealing.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 17,527
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 17,527 |
I've used JB's method, but started just using the kitchen stove. Turn the gas on low, gently turn in the flame, and plop...into some water. I didn't like all the carbon on the cases from the candle smoke. The rag makes sense though if you don't want to wait for the cases to dry out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401 |
John,
One other question. Do you find that there is a certain number of cases you can anneal before your fingers lose their sensitivity to the proper amount of heat?
I would think a person can become accustomed to increasing heat, so their fingers don't sense the same amount of heat the more cases you anneal (in one session). Don't know if this is the case or not, so thought I'd ask.
Thanks!
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
IME they increase in sensitivity as you go along. After annealing a batch, I annealed 121 30-06 cases just last night, if not careful I end up with a very minor 1st degree burn on my fingetips. Not really a burn, more like a bad sunburn. You quickly learn to hold on to those cases only until it gets "almost too hot to hold", not until it's a test of willpower to see how much pain you can stand.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
One thing I do when heating the case is start counting when the neck gets put into the flame. I've found it takes just about the same count for my fingers to start feeling the heat every time.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,523
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,523 |
I've got a bunch of .221 Fireball cases that need annealing pretty bad. I'll have to give this a try.
However, that Fireball case is awfully short, I suspect my fingers will get pretty warm...............
You can roll a turd in peanuts, dip it in chocolate, and it still ain't no damn Baby Ruth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
Mule Deer's tip about counting should work. "one, tw...ouch!"
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 479
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 479 |
I don't see why it wouldn't work with primed cases, because the head of the case never gets hot. But I would be pretty nervous about getting a primer anywhere near an open flame! Well I guess I'm a risk taker cuz I just did about 10 primed cases the other day and I'm just fine but there's one problem that occured. When I wiped my cases down with the wet paper towel some water got inside about 6 of the cases and so I just deprimed the whole lot of them and let them dry for a while before seating more primers. So, all in all, it wasn't worth the risk.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,084
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 10,084 |
It seems simple enough... that even I will try it.
That which does not kill us makes us stronger
Friedrich Nietzsche
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 267
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 267 |
I need to anneal some 22 Spitfire (.30 carbine necked to .22) cases. Can the candle method be used with cases that small?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
I don't see why not. I've used it on .221 Fireball cases--though you might want to hold it more toward the base side of the middle of the case.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,716
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,716 |
Sounds like the system he came up with was with the use of the Tempil Stick or Tempil Laq. I made the mistake of getting the 650 Stick (Markel Thermomelt Heat Stik), as it was supposed to work like a crayon according to what i read. Well it's chalky so it doesn't rub on. But i thought to just scrape a bit off on the inside of the case mouth, and use a pair of jewelers glasses to see when it dissipates, and it actually worked well this way with the torch. But i was often questioning it since many of the videos i saw the necks were turning red hot, and mine weren't--obviously not correct according to what i'm reading here. But i have done many 17 Mach IV and 223 cases with no problems so far, but i may have to try the candle system with the chalk and see how that works too.
John--do u remember what issue that article was in?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
No, I don't. I have the photocopy Fred gave me around here somewhere, but exactly where might be a question! I'l try to remember to take a quick look tomorrow.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 86
Campfire Greenhorn
|
|
Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 86 |
I wonder if you could dip cases in melted potassium nitrate to anneal them. Or would that color the cases a weird shade?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320 |
The question came up about resizing before or after annealing.
It might not make any difference, but if you resize before annealing, you have resized a case that needs annealing one more time. That one more time might be the one that causes the neck to split.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,817
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,817 |
I think what he's trying to say is if the brass is near it's limit, it would then be better to anneal before performing another cold working operation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320 |
That is what I was trying to say. When I made the above post, I knew it didn't look right, but I couldn't figure out another way to say it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Thanks for the clarification, guys!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
This morning I fireformed 12 .243 cases that had been fired 10 times, they were fireformed to .243 AI. Six were annealed using the candle method and six were left unannealed. All cases survived the fireforming without any splits or cracks of any kind.
The load was .5 grain below the max listed in the Hornady handbook for their 100 gr. BTSP and H-4831 so it wasn't a wimpy load.
The only difference the annealing seems to have made is that the shoulder/body junction of the unannealed cases was not quite as sharp and defined as on the annealed cases.
Don't know what that really tells us, except that R-P .243 brass apparently remains ductile even after 10 firings.
Anyway, I went ahead and annealed the rest of that batch of 100 cases and am going to go ahead to fireform them and use them in the new AI chamber.
Added: Been thinking some more about this and I think it also shows the value of minimal neck sizing. These .243 cases have been sized exclusively with the Lee collet die and a Redding body die. The necks weren't subjected to being squeezed down much smaller than needed and then enlarged with an expander ball so they haven't been work hardened nearly as much as they might have been.
Last edited by Jim in Idaho; 04/10/11.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
And in other news, sometimes it takes someone else to make you say to yourself, "well, duh."  In this case it's MD's suggestion of counting while heating instead of waiting to see when each case gets too hot to hold. I timed two cases to the point of almost getting too hot to hold at the middle, then for the rest of the batch I held them at the head and just counted the seconds. There's a clock in my loading room that ticks audibly so the counts could all be the same. Holding the cases at the cool end sure saves a lot of wear and tear on the fingertips.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,903
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,903 |
Jim, a clicking clock to time by is excellent. Gonna use that one!
GOA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,017
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,017 |
I did a bunch of .30-06 cases with this method. It seems to take about 15 seconds +/- to get the bosy of the case too hot to hold. I'll load some of them this week.
My experience in .30-06 is that eventually the necks split. Since I have a half dozen '06 rifles, I have to full length size to assure chambering in any rifle.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 13,401 |
And in other news, sometimes it takes someone else to make you say to yourself, "well, duh." In this case it's MD's suggestion of counting while heating instead of waiting to see when each case gets too hot to hold. I timed two cases to the point of almost getting too hot to hold at the middle, then for the rest of the batch I held them at the head and just counted the seconds. There's a clock in my loading room that ticks audibly so the counts could all be the same. Holding the cases at the cool end sure saves a lot of wear and tear on the fingertips. Jim, How long on average for the 243 cases? I may be annealing some 223AI cases in the near future.
“There are some who can live without wild things and some who cannot.”
ALDO LEOPOLD
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
I held the .243 cases in the flame for 14 seconds. Also did a batch of .308 cases yesterday and they took 15 seconds each.
Wiping each one off with a wet rag and grabbing the next one you can do about three per minute. That's pretty close since it takes me a bit over 1/2 hour to do a batch of 100 cases.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,397
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,397 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,075
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 18,075 |
If you don't want to tag you can go up top to topic options and add to watched topics then it will be stored under watched topics in the watch list under the my stuff tab up top.
I save most of the really good ones that way and its easier to find them then scrolling through years of posts
Mike
God, Family, and Country.
NRA Endowment Member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,886
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,886 |
Now that I have read this entire thread, I have questions. Aside from the cost: What is the opinion on the Fluxeon Annie Induction Annealer? http://www.fluxeon.com/buyflux/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=66
Last edited by Reloder28; 03/28/15.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,563
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,563 |
I bought 500 rds of Remington 25-20 WCF brass, when such a thing was available, and loaded 100. 32 split necks on first firing, aarrgh! candle annealed new brass, next 100 fired with same load and zero splits. With Lee collet dies I anneal every other firing, and usually drop hot cases into a bath of water with citric acid and dish soap, then put in ultrasonic cleaner.
There is no retreat but in submission and slavery!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,337
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,337 |
John
You might share my experience with the 7mm Mag problem I was having.
Charlie
The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment. NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTSj
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Thought you might, but I might as well.
Charlie had some brand-new 7mm Remington Magnum brass, and for a while thought he couldn't make a 7mm RM that shot worth a hoot. He finally called me about it, sometime in the past year, and we batted it around for a while. I finally suggested annealing the brass. After all, factories can screw up now and then, and annealing is just another step in the manufacturing process.
He'd never annealed any brass before, so I described the candle method. All of sudden his 7mm RM's starting shooting little-bitty groups!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,425
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,425 |
I'll play Dittohead on "annealing works."
But I like the propane and spin-holder-drill method way better. Speed....my bullets go slow, my annealing goes fast. Just like doing forearm curls, PUMP YOU UP.
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,604
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,604 |
I've used JB's method, but started just using the kitchen stove. Turn the gas on low, gently turn in the flame, and plop...into some water. I didn't like all the carbon on the cases from the candle smoke. The rag makes sense though if you don't want to wait for the cases to dry out.
This is exactly what I do.
"Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart." Psalm 37, verse 4.
"The lazy do not roast any game, but the diligent feed on the riches of the hunt." Proverbs 12:27
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,080 |
Just want to point out again (because I do it every time this subject comes up) that candle annealing isn't MY method. It was developed by Fred Barker, as an alternative that doesn't run any risk of over-annealing. Just want to make sure Fred gets credit, since there are too many people in the world taking credit for things they didn't do.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,375 |
I see it's been almost exactly 4 years since I reported the results of fireforming annealed cases so figured I'd update the results. Those cases are now on their 20th firing with no signs of slowing down. Not a single case has been lost to neck splits. Further, by minimal neck sizing and judicious shoulder bumping only as needed, there are no signs of incipient head separation in any of them. Nor have they been trimmed in all this time since being trimmed after their first firing. Hmm, maybe Mr. Ackley was on to something...
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,091
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,091 |
MD- As advertised, the annealed end of the case is no longer brittle. But something seems amiss, with the case missing that certain je ne sais quoi that most good usable cases possess. I made a photo so you all can see what I mean. --Bob You dummy, you're supposed to use high base stuff...
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800 |
MD- As advertised, the annealed end of the case is no longer brittle. But something seems amiss, with the case missing that certain je ne sais quoi that most good usable cases possess. I made a photo so you all can see what I mean. --Bob You dummy, you're supposed to use high base stuff... dennisinaz- [sneer]You think you're so smart ...[/sneer] . ![[Linked Image]](http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/33132/normal_annealing.jpg) --Bob
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,425
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,425 |
Up hills slow,
Down hills fast
Tonnage first and
Safety last.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,412
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 31,412 |
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,634
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 10,634 |
There are various ways to do this, most being variations on a theme. Most of my annealing is with BPCR cases, involving low pressure black powder loads. Goals is neck tension uniformity and extending case life. I turn in an electric drill with a K&M case holder. For a heat sink I use a series of sponges with holes in the center. Besides keeping excess heat from the head area, it provides a "handle" to remove the hot case from the drill. Takes a bit of dexterity and practice, but it works well for me. Paul ![[Linked Image]](http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m88/Paul39/IMG_0002-2.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m88/Paul39/IMG_0004.jpg)
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 708 |
Lots of ways to skin a cat. A friend uses the candle method quite successfully......low ES and long case life. I tried it and could not get the hang of it with out getting my fingers into the flame or touching some hot part.
So , I use the propane torch and case in a socket drill method. Watching the YouTube videos on case annealing machines it appears about 8 seconds and 5 seconds for the 223 type cases. I have a cookie sheet with dampened/wetted towel on it, put case in spinning socket for 8 seconds (my natural way of counting gets me to 13 in 8 seconds), I pick the case out of the socket with my bare fingers and roll on the damp cloth. I find it easier than the candle method.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 671
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 671 |
I read one of Mule Deer's posts here around 4 years ago. I noticed differences in case hardness while chamfering the inside of the necks. I could also feel the difference pulling off the expander plug.
The difference in hardness will effect the neck tension. The candle method has worked for me on 223's, 20 Tac and 243's. I also turn necks and then anneal. I simply find accuracy better when cases are annealed. In addition, it is rare when I get a split neck.
|
|
|
|
|
557 members (1beaver_shooter, 10gaugemag, 1Akshooter, 17CalFan, 007FJ, 1337Fungi, 55 invisible),
2,479
guests, and
1,159
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,327
Posts18,468,536
Members73,928
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://s102.photobucket.com/user/Paul39/media/IMG_0002-2.jpg.html)
![[Linked Image]](http://s102.photobucket.com/user/Paul39/media/IMG_0004.jpg.html)