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Originally Posted by djs

You support a Florida pastor�s right to free speech, but you don't support a woman's right to have an abortion. The former has major ramifications while the second is between the woman, the doctor and, God.


djs, you are making a very common logical fallacy. There are actually two other people involved - the father and the unborn child.

Last edited by achadwick; 04/05/11.

and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

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I'm not sure that that majority of people supporting access to abortion are moral relativists, whether normative or descriptive. While certainly there are some who find nothing wrong with abortion, I don't think it's an accurate depiction.

Many take the position abortion is a a wrong, but that the particular wrong is not something that lends itself to prohibition through laws and earthly judgment, due to the unique circumstances. It then is left to the woman and her maker.

The irony of this thread,of course, is that 90% of Planned Parenthood's patients are there for contraception, for the prevention of a pregnancy,rather than an abortion. Around here, none of the Planned Parenthoods even perform abortions.


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Just don't see the logic of excluding two other parties involved in an abortion decision - the father and the child.

Oh, and you better check your facts on that 90%, Flyfast. You have it mostly upside down. Look beyond the PPH rhetoric at their own data.



and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

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Originally Posted by achadwick
So you are suggesting that someone's male genitalia somehow disqualifies the person from making certain rational moral judgments?

Your free to make all the rational moral judgments you want.
But the big problem with that is, I dont really care what you think.
I look at abortion as a womens issue.
Ill go one step farther.
I think it should be put to a vote.
And only women should be allowed to vote on it.

dave


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The killing of innocent children is everyone's business, dave. It's not just a woman thing, it's about who and what we are.


and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

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God judged and destroyed Israel for killing their babies as an offering to the god Molech.
America, today, is killing 1.3 million babies a year as an offering to the god "Convenience".
Are we not more deserving of God's wrath than Israel?

Hitler was called a monster for killer 6 million Jews in about 6 years.
The U.S. is killing that many babies every 4 years for 35+ years now. What does that make us?

There are many reasons our government should not finance abortions. One of them is that the abortion industry is horrible. It is abominable. Second, is that it is not the "government's money" that finances the killing of the baby. It is our money, which makes it part "my money". When my money is being used to finance murder, then I am forced to endorse it, by default, making me culpable for murder before God.
I don't want to have blood-guilt on my hands before God because you have decided to become a baby-murderer.

When you kill someone you take away from them everything they are, everything they have, everything they are ever gonna be.

Our society knows abortion is very wrong. Case in point. There's a guy in California sitting in jail, convicted of double murder of his wife and unborn child. if she had had an abortion the day before, he'd only be guilty of one murder.
One situation of killing the baby is murder, while killing the baby by abortion is not considered murder?
What is the difference?
In one situation the baby is loved and wanted. In the other, the baby is unloved and unwanted. That is it.
If someone loves you, then your life is valued. If no one loves you, then your life is worthless and you're not even human.
Many people throughout the history of our planet have been killed or enslaved because society dehumanized them and "made it morally right" to do so. The practical extinction of the American Indian and the enslavement of black people in America were built on first dehumanizing them in order to make it a "right" to do this to them..... Just like dehumanizing unborn babies "gives folks the right" to kill them.

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Originally Posted by rphguy
Hitler was called a monster for killing 6 million Jews in about 6 years.
The U.S. is killing that many babies every 4 years for 35+ years now. What does that make us?

There are many reasons our government should not finance abortions. One of them is that the abortion industry is horrible. It is abominable. Second, is that it is not the "government's money" that finances the killing of the baby. It is our money, which makes it part "my money". When my money is being used to finance murder, then I am forced to endorse it, by default, making me culpable for murder before God.
I don't want to have blood-guilt on my hands before God because you have decided to become a baby-murderer.

When you kill someone you take away from them everything they are, everything they have, everything they are ever gonna be.

Our society knows abortion is very wrong. Case in point. There's a guy in California sitting in jail, convicted of double murder of his wife and unborn child. if she had had an abortion the day before, he'd only be guilty of one murder.
One situation of killing the baby is murder, while killing the baby by abortion is not considered murder?
What is the difference?
In one situation the baby is loved and wanted. In the other, the baby is unloved and unwanted. That is it.
If someone loves you, then your life is valued. If no one loves you, then your life is worthless and you're not even human.
Many people throughout the history of our planet have been killed or enslaved because society dehumanized them and "made it morally right" to do so. The practical extinction of the American Indian and the enslavement of black people in America were built on first dehumanizing them in order to make it a "right" to do this to them..... Just like dehumanizing unborn babies "gives folks the right" to kill them.


THIS IS EXCELLENT REASONING AND VERY WELL STATED. Thank you.


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Originally Posted by Flyfast
I'm not sure that that majority of people supporting access to abortion are moral relativists, whether normative or descriptive. While certainly there are some who find nothing wrong with abortion, I don't think it's an accurate depiction.
You have stated uncertainty about the moral position of a lot of people, and have expressed doubt about the depiction. Can you offer evidence to support your doubts? Do you know the minds and souls of all those people? For openers, would you care to explain how someone who supports the killing of babies is operating from anything other than a relatavistic (im)moral premise?

Quote
Many take the position abortion is a a wrong, but that the particular wrong is not something that lends itself to prohibition through laws and earthly judgment, due to the unique circumstances. It then is left to the woman and her maker.
How, and why, would a morally grounded person take a position such as you depict? What is unique about a parent killing an unwanted child? (I wish it were unique.) What matters of morality are NOT left to the individual and her/his Maker

Quote
The irony of this thread,of course, is that 90% of Planned Parenthood's patients are there for contraception, for the prevention of a pregnancy,rather than an abortion. Around here, none of the Planned Parenthoods even perform abortions.
How can one find any basis for irony here. You seem like a nice and thoughtful (to a point) person, but this statement seems to indicate a delusional state - or intake and digestion of PP kool-aid.

Last edited by CCCC; 04/06/11. Reason: sp

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Your free to make all the rational moral judgments you want.
But the big problem with that is, I dont really care what you think.
I look at abortion as a womens issue.
Ill go one step farther.
I think it should be put to a vote.
And only women should be allowed to vote on it.


Clearly, you have never had a child of yours aborted.

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Originally Posted by Flyfast
Around here, none of the Planned Parenthoods even perform abortions.


Flyfast,

I don't know where you live in California, but, by my count, of the 113 Planned Parenthood centers in California, 80 of them do provide abortion services. That's about 71%.

I pulled these data right off their website. If you don't believe me, you can count them yourself here:
Planned Parenthood Centers in California

Now, it is arguable whether the "Emergency Contraception Services" provided by most of the other centers is also just abortion in disguise. If so, then the percentage is way higher than 71%.


and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

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So, facts are not important in this dialog?


and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

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