Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters .260 Rem. vs 6.5 Creedmore, some thoughts.

Dear all,
I am one of those looneys that has long been attracted to the 6.5 mm cartridges, with the .260 Remington holding the most slots in my safe. About 7 years ago I had a target rifle built on a Ruger action with a 28" Lilja barrel in .260 Remington. I think I am getting as much or more out of that combination than I could out of the 6.5 Creedmore, plus brass is easy to obtain (I use Nosler brass). Please don't make me buy another rifle/cartridge combo! Thanks for the great article John in Handloader.

Handloader came on Saturday and I am reading the article now.

I love the 260 Remington (as well as the 22 Hornet, 223 Rem, 220 Swift, 6.5X55, 7X57, 300 Savage, 308 win, 30-06, 8X57, 338-06, 358 Win, 35 Whelen, etc - well, you get the idea). I don't need another cartridge for which I'll have to buy new dies, additional brass, etc).

But then, the 260 Creedmoor sure looks interesting.

Can you AI it?
Only kidding.
I've a barrel/action about to be chambered to the 260AI the next week or two. I still waffle about giving the smith a call and telling him to change it plane 260, Creedmore, or 6.5x47 Lapua.

Application should dictate choice IMHO:

1) Competition shooting/Hunting + handloading? 260 has most performance and brass options and supply. RP, FED, Nosler/Norma, now Lapua, re-formed 308, HSM, Corbon, etc. are some options for brass.

2) Competition/Hunting (realizing ltd. bullet choices - some match/target design) + affordable factory ammo only? Creedmoor. For handloaders, brass supply has been sketchy (likely Hornady prefers selling ammo anyway). Not many are 'forming brass' from any other case, and Hornady is the ONLY mfg. of brass/ammo to date, to my knowledge.

Since the Above 2 TYPICALLY see better speeds w/139-142s at common pressures they have that niche for many. (I know there are exceptions - but again, taking averages of the masses of users).

3) Competition + handloader + shooting 123-130s, OR Hunting + Handloading and using in a sporter length bbl where more powder is not utilized as much (say 19-23" bbl), I would choose 6.5x47 Lapua.

Bottom line, they ALL are CLOSER in performance than what most shooters can realize in differences. Brass supply, cost, die cost, ammo cost, and availability of all are more different than any difference on a Chronograph. That said, the very more critical 1,000 Yd shooters and beyond, claim the 260 w/139-142s are superior and unmatched by the 47 fwiw, but again, it's ALL ABOUT APPLICATION and above 3 scenario's is how I would decide.

Just my .02.

The other reason I am sticking with the .260 Rem. is the great shooting Remington Mountain rifle I have in that chambering, and my daughter has a Model Seven in .260, plus I have several sets of dies, lots of brass, etc. etc. If I was starting from scratch I think I'd still go with the .260, I tend to like things with Remington in the name, can't help but think of all that name means to a kid of the 60's and 70's, those old ads still bring back wonderful thoughts.

65BR,

As I pointed out in my article, it is extremely easy to form 6.5 Creedmoor cases out of commonly available .22-250 brass using the Cream of Wheat method. One little pop and you're done.

JB, you mentioned at one point that you might cut a bit off the barrel of your Ruger 6.5. Did you end up doing so? I'm wondering how the 6.5 creedmoor would do with a barrel length of around 22"?

Thanks for pointing that out JB...

Sorry I missed that, I do recall you mentioning it here, though not heard of anyone doing it, most seem to buy, or are awaiting Hornady brass from what I have seen i.e. over on snipershide where you have a sprinkling of 6.5C users as well as 47, but the latest talk of Lapua 260 brass has seemingly increasing interest in the 260. No doubt, the 47 and Creed BOTH have design features that offer improvement over Rem's version.

That's a good option to have if/when Hornady is in short supply.

How would quality compare and which brand 22-250 would be preferred......(Lapua cost about as much as 47 and 260 brass - so no advantage there)?

I Like the Creed DESIGN actually better than 260, but to me the availability of components and ammo to me give the 260 a big advantage, as of now, again IMO. That said, there are no flies on the design or factory ammo in the 6.5C, but I think the buying public may well now lean more than ever to the 260 since Lapua is out and handloaders see that as a KEY rationale for choice. I have not heard anything bad on consistency w/6.5C brass, but primer pocket life has been debated.

Time will tell if the 6.5C survives/thrives, if it does not, it will be not due to it's capabilities.

Personally I like hedging things w/brass options being a handloader and having so many 'ready made' stamped '260' cases on the scene, it's hard to overlook that aspect. Just me.

From an industry standpoint, I don't expect to see any other mfg. desiring to offer ammo/brass as the 6.5 mid capacity space seems to be getting crowded, not to mention the legendary 55mm w/120+ years of success/history.....albeit usually in a long action.

I have nothing against any of the rounds, they all offer great accuracy, low recoil, and good killing power to hunters, w/good trajectory and wind drift.

I will be interested if Lapua brass will dramatically change the ease of accuracy obtained with the 260 vs. the 'IMO' better designed cases the Creed and 47 offer.

From calculations I made, I believe the neck on the 47 is .319
while the other 2 are around .2594/2.595. I believe the 6.5x55 has a neck of about .313, a known round for accuracy.

Just as my experience showed a preference for a 6mm Rem to slightly overshadow the 243 Win in ease of developing 'bug hole' loads, I think the 47 offers that potential.

It's splitting hairs really, the 260 does make it harder to kiss lands when seated in factory mag boxes w/factory Saami chambers no doubt - not a great thing, though there are options for reamers and mag boxes. Granted, one would have to be Darned good to 'Shoot the difference' when not on a steady table w/sandbags or similar.

I would expect a SLIGHT recoil reduction w/the 47 in a sporter weight rifle, again, splitting hairs.

In selecting one over another, it seems to be more about application, Real accuracy goals/needs, and owner wants/needs with ammo, brass options, and costs of those IMO. A BR shooter might want a 47 but a steel shooter might like less expensive brass in the event one fails/wishes not to recover all ejected brass.

Just some of what I have seen others argue, though I admit I have also used the same criteria to consider when choosing which round, for various projects.

To me, the best reason to use a Creed is a non handloader who wants a mild nice 6.5mm, whether for non dangerous big game/varmints and/or various competition. Hunters do get the option of having many choices by Ruger and I believe Savage has added some 6.5C's along w/their 260s. There may be more, I am not sure.

None the less, there is no 6.5mm round I dislike

Loaded to the same pressures.
I would expect less recoil with the 260 Rem.

Less barrel length.
Less pressures.
Better brass.

Who wants to fire form brass, have a longer barrel, shoot at higher pressures just so they can match a 260 Rem shooting at normal pressures out of a 22" barrel?

Am I missing something here?

SU35,

In my comparison of 6.5 Creedmoor and .260 brass, there was a 1/2-grain difference in powder capacity with a bullet seated, not enough to make a practical difference in velocity/pressure.

They're both great rounds with more similarities than differences. I shoot the 260 and have been very happy with it. Would've been equally happy with the 6.5C for my purposes (mostly hunting).

At the range I've been hearing a few people talking about moving away from 6.5x47 and going back to the 260 because they were having to push the 47 really hard to match speeds with the larger case. Have you guys heard any of that?

I dont think the intention of the 6.5x47 was to ever match speeds of the 260?? I think it was built to best utilize the long 6.5 bullets with good powder in a smaller/efficient round. I have several rifles of the 6.5 caliber and my favorite right now is the 6.5x47. Its easy to load, easy on the shoulder and seems to shoot anything you put in it extremely well. If you wanna match the 260 in speed get a 260.

Yeah, about the only real difference is the shorter overall length of the Creedmoor, providing a little more flexbility in bullet seating depth in 2.8" magazines.

The Hornady Creedoor brass is good, when you can get it, but Lapua makes .22-250 brass which would be an excellent way to go as well.

Midway has Hornady Creedmore brass in stock.

FWIW, I had Pac-Nor build me a 6.5-308....aka now 260 back in the mid 90s...and about then a few 6BRs. For Varmints/paper/deer I still see ALOT of utility for these rounds w/good bullets.

As to the 47, for a fellow that wants to drive 120-130 class bullets and happy w/say 2900/2800 respectively in a 22-23" bbl max, I think it gives up little to nothing in capabilities for game typically hunted with a 6.5 up to most normal distances.

Now granted, if I were shooting competition at 1,000 yds, a 260, and Creedmoor as I said above gives a little speed more due to case capacity in heavier 139-142s, (and many would argue for a 6.5-284 and/or 6.5x55 or an AI variant, and rightfully so - bore life not withstanding) but when you drop down to lighter bullets i.e. 120-130s, the differential is less and a 47 is very comparable in results/data I have seen.

The 47 has the least capacity, therefore least recoil and muzzle lift. Recoil is NOT an issue w/any, but the LESS my muzzle rises and sight pic left undisturbed, the easier I can spot my hits/misses.....and one only needs to run a rifle where you can do so to learn a rifle's trajectory fast...shooting 6mm BRs and 7BR in a rifle has been my most fun calibers I have run. Various 22s were nice, but lacked as much 'bullet signature/impact' when hitting in say grass vs. dirt. SO, having a bullet with enough frontal area and weight/energy yet in a mild enough recoiling rifle (think BR thru 308 case, and 6-7mm bullets thru 120-130gr) to me give a great balance.

No doubt they are all very useful and have more in common then otherwise. On brass - the Creedmoor perhaps suffered inconsistent production meeting supply/demand ratio's but perhaps it will straighten/level out after many owners stock up.

No doubt given the intro of the Creed and timing of a new administration and 'panic buying...HOARDING of components inc. brass/lead/caps' supplies of brass were not always steady so it seems based on owners putting out 'Brass wanted' posts on sights where many Creed users reside. No doubt that was not likely a long term issue, but I seen many such posts and complaints....but I personally was not keeping tabs on the issue since I was not looking for any.

M7 - I loved my Borden 260 Varmint bbl, and may yet do a sporter in one as I have 3 more Alpine actions begging for barrels. 2 6.5 Bartlein's ready to be chambered and I am leaning strong to the 47 for at least one....as though many might compare differences in the 3, the fact is, I'd be willing to bet big, that 90-95% of the deer and hogs killed, could all have dropped very dead/quick had a good 120-130gr 6.5 been fired from the measley Grendel.

Having shot the 6 and 7 BR, NOT fireforming brass was why I chose those and was 'yet' to have built a 6.5 version, the Grendel is compelling, but a bolt makes more sense....yet I pause thinking you give up another 150-200fps over a BR case.

A 47 will close the gap between a PPC improved case ala Grendel, and the BR vs. the 260 and Creed, while giving POSITIVE feeding in a repeater...minimal recoil and muzzle lift...and VERY close speeds when using 120-130s, to a 260 or Creed in a 21-23" bbl which I prefer in a sporter hunting rifle.

With a 6BR and 95 Ballistic Tips or 105 Amax OR a 7mm BR w/120 Ballistic Tip OR a 120 Vmax......OR a 6.5 Grendel or BR and 120 Ballistic Tip or 129 SST........I would HAPPILY use ANY of those BR/PPC_AI cases to 400 yds on deer.

That said, I have NO doubt a 47 will do for 98-100% of what I intend to do with a 6.5 bore, mostly varmints/paper/deer/hogs and perhaps a sprinkling of other non dangerous big game, with ranges likely not to exceed 400-500 yds as an outlier. Surely not 600+ that John Burns video showed Wayne Van Zwolle taking his elk w/129 w/the Creed.

There is an argument for all three, depending on application, where any/all might do VERY well, but when you split hairs, the edge based on criteria determined by the individual choosing, specific to the exact type of shooting/hunting that will be done, can go to any one......depending.

Glad to see the support and appreciate for these three mild mannered highly efficient and effective rounds. I think the 243 and 7/08 got many in this direction as did the 270 when many realized 30 somethings were not always needed......or even small bore magnums.

Light recoil, self spotting hits w/o a muzzle brake, bore life, wonderful accuracy, and endless diversity of common bullet choices from 85-160gr.....simply covers alot of ground and features I desire in a cartridge. Granted, MANY rounds can well duplicate their performance - but for the balance I have selected for all my criteria, they personally have alot more pros than cons. For other hunters/shooters, their needs may differ and that's ok, a 6.5 or at least modest capacity 6.5 may NOT be the best.

EACH shooter must individually decide WHAT it is they are looking for in variable's to choose the criteria they look for, and in what priority they put them.

SU - re: your comments -

quote[Loaded to the same pressures.
I would expect less recoil with the 260 Rem.

Less barrel length.
Less pressures.
Better brass.

Who wants to fire form brass, have a longer barrel, shoot at higher pressures just so they can match a 260 Rem shooting at normal pressures out of a 22" barrel?

Am I missing something here?]quote


The 6.5x47 LAPUA cartridge typically runs about 37-40gr powder vs. say 44-46 or more in the 260.

As to pressures - granted some/many users of the Lapua '47mm' round PUSH pressures very high to try duplicating a 260 or Creed.....that's NOT my plan if I chamber one up......as to my uses....if I am 50fps shy of a 260 for example, it won't change IF that bullet will take down a game animal at the ranges I hunt. I think Greg R and others here have done VERY well w/260s running in a 16.5" Ruger Compact, knowing well that anticipated/typical vel. loss is about 30-35 fps per inch, an average loss of say 150-200 fps might be pretty much expected over a 22-24" bbl, YET the animal never knows, only the user if they clock over a chronograph.

FWIW, I ran a 22" 260 Sako 75, fav load was a 130 at 2780 w/IMR4350. Sure I could have bumped it up about 50-75fps or more, using H4350 and others, yet I was getting groups where the first 2 of 3 shots were in the same hole.....at 200 yds.....(Federal brass - Rem brass did not reproduce results). I did this TWICE the same day back to back after barrel cool down using a 6.5-20x Leupold.

Headstamp is more in a shooters mind than affecting the outcome of a kill for a hunter, when the first two principals are applied:

1) Use a good bullet
2) Put it thru vitals

I could be VERY happy running ANY of the 3 so long as I had a good supply of ammo and/or brass to handload, and good bullets, and my loads/rifle was producing groups near/sub 1/2MOA which is not uncommon in any of them in a well built rifle, inc. Ruger's as JB has noted.

This assumes one is not making a video on LR hunting on large game at 800-1,000+ yards, which is a whole other topic anyway. Plenty speed is on tap IMO for expansion and penetration save the LONGEST of shots w/the hardest of bullets (think solid copper).

Perhaps Alan - aka GSSP will see this thread and chime in...he has had some very impressive results w/his personal 47 Lapua's - 2 rifles......and it is intriguing...however no doubt, many can question pressures used, even though Alan has to date had no safety issues, handloading safety does need to be in check for any round loaded.

"match speeds" was a bad phrase for me to use. The long range guys like to push bullets fast. In order to get the speed they want they have to push the smaller 47 case pretty hard. By going back to the larger 260 case (some of them had used 260's in the past) they can reach the desired velocity without pushing it so hard.

That's what I've been hearing at the range. I'm not a long range guy so that's why I asked about it.

I've got two 260s, two 6.5 Swedes and one 6.5 Creedmoor. I could never decide between them so have them all.

I got some creedmoor brass from Midway and loaded some 129gr SSTs using the Superformance powder. I was quite impressed with the powder. It was very consistent in velocity with duplicates in each string and standard deviation in the four loads I tried went from 7 to a high of 13.
My Ruger Hawkeye has the 26" barrel and velocity was higher than the Hornady data with all loads. That, in my experience is quite unusual. At the max of 46.7grs my rifle got an avg. vel. of 2951fps & a .25" 3 shot group.
I am eager to find some time to re-test that load some more. I have never had velocity or accuracy of that level with any of my other 6.5s. Result of rifle or cartridge? At this point I can't say, but it sure is fun and should make a deer unhappy this fall.

The Creedmore was designed to allow the use of VLD bullets seated long & still feed from the magazine of a short action, as in the 300 rapids event of across-the-course Highpower.

The .260 will shoot VLDs just fine, but is better at it when the bullets are seated long for single loading as in prone slow fire like F-class and Highpower Mid & Long range events. Go to a long action and it shoots VLDs loaded long even from a magazine.

Hunting was never part of the equation in designing the Creedmore. Not that it can't be used, just that it holds no significant advantage over the .260 in hunting situations.

7Heaven, Don't change what you are doing Nice shooting.

Barry, Agreed. That said, no reason the Creed won't equal a 260 in the field, it's nice esp. given the lack of support that has waned w/the arms mfg. in 260, that Ruger is offering a few Creed rifles, and as in their 260s, using the preferred 8" twist covering all bases. I do see Hornday offering loads OTHER than Amax's which granted flatten deer well esp. broadside lung shots, but not ideal for all angles. They are broadening their market w/more ammo, as is Ruger doing sporter rifles vs. just the Target/Varmint 77 originally.

It's a coin toss w/very subtle differences in REAL world performance of the three.

Where can I find this article?

Thanks,

Mark