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I am wanting to load some 405 grain lead cast bullets for
close range ( under 100 yards ) deer hunting in my 1886 Win.
Question:
1. How hard , or soft should the cast lead be ?
2. Where to purchase such bullets ?

I would like to keep velocity in the 1300-1500 range.

I bought a bunch of 300 grain RNFP several years ago. They
are accurate and don't beat me up. Keep them at 1600+/- fps.
great for targets. I have no idea how hard they are.

Sorry, I forgot...Iam talking about a 45-70.

Thanks in advance for the info,

Rabbitdog

Last edited by Rabbitdog; 05/30/11.

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Midway has a good selection if you want ready made bullets.

The Lee 90374 405 .457 plain base is very accurate (under 2" @100 with irons) in my 86, cast with just salvaged wheelweights. SPG lube, 3031.

You don't need a 405 to kill deer, the 300 will zip right through any deer.

Hardness is not an issue except for leading. A 45 caliber hole through a deer's lung/heart area will leave a good blood trial and make a quick kill.

Took this Antelope at 90 odd yards last fall with my Whitworth MZ replica.
Load was 90 gr FFG and a .452 cast 482 gr (pure lead) bullet. (would be a serious 45-70 load if it would fit in the case cept' need fatter bullet). Zipped through both lungs, he sat down, fell over and rolled down the hill DOA.

Bad news was the WG&F bioligist said he was the oldest Antelope he had ever seen.


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I load my own cast 405 grain bullets in two 45-70's -- a Buffalo Classic with a 32" bbl, and a Marlin 1895. The powder I use is AA5744 -- 25 grains. Accuracy is phenominal. I water quench the bullets out of the mould, and tumble lube them. Velocity is 1250 to 1300 depending on the rifle, and NO problems with leading the bores. My mould is a Lee single cavity el cheapo that just keeps tossing out 0.459 bullets.


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1. How hard , or soft should the cast lead be ?
I cast the Lyman 457193 (405 gr RNFP) for my 45-70s. I use wheel weights for smokeless loads and cast 40:1 and 30:1 for BP loads. I know the BP loads are in the 1200 fps range. The smokeless loads are 54 gr IMR4350 - I have never run them over a chrony, so don't know fps for sure, but would estimate in the 1500 to 1600 fps range. I lube all with a home-made lube (similar in consistency to SPG) and put a .035"+/- card wad under the bullet.

2. Where to purchase such bullets ?
As said, I cast my own. Try Buffalo Arms for purchase.

I shoot a Shiloh Sharps (30" barrel), a Rem Rolling Block (34" barrel) and a Marlin 1895 Cowboy (26" barrel), all in 45-70.


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Most of the commercial cast bullets are pretty hard. Contrary to popular belief they will lead your bore especially if they are slightly undersize for the bore. Best bet would be to slug your bore to get the actual diameter. Then contact one of the custom casters such as Beartooth Bullets or Montana Bullet Works. There are others but these are 2 that I have had pleasnt dealings with. They have a store house of information and will be able to help you find what you need to fit your parameters.

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Thanks to ALL for the replys. The information is invaluable.
I think I'll just stick with my "Store Bought" 300 grainers
and see how the White Tails respond. I have taken several 200+lb.Hogs at about 50yards with them. All gave up with a single shot through the front end. Complete pass throughs.

Thanks, Rabbitdog


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I don't cast but I use lots of Beartooth, Oregon trails and Cast performance bullets. Oregon trails "TrueShot Silver bullets" are unbelievably uniform in size, weight, OAL, and ogive measurements and produce the best accuracty in my shooters...a NEF BC rechambered to 45-120 so I can shoot all the different case lengths... a Browning 450 Marlin, and a Marlin 336 switch barrel, 356 W, 444M and I just installed a 45-70 barrel on it which I will rechamber to 458 American so I don't have to do so much work on the receiver to get that huge rim to work.

If you want an eye opener, compare the ballistics of a 300 gr bullet in a 375 H&H to the ballistics you can get from a 300 gr bullet in a 45 cal. I somehow catagorized shooters into "large and slow" and "small and fast" in my mind...and the two didn't come together until I was checking velocity and pressure for the Marlin rifle and happened to think "those numbers look vaguely familiar" then checked against my 375 H&H and 416 Taylor reloads...after I shot the first one which I had loaded for my BC and was surprized at the level of recoil compared to my 444M with 300 gr bullets I went back to my notes and really did some comparing...the velocity for a 300 gr in a 45-70 out of that 32" tube is well above what is produced in my 375 H&H and was up in the 2500fs plus range in the 22" Marlin...I'm now making a muzzle brake for that barrel. eek shocked grin

For all intents and purposes, ANY of the 300-350 gr "store boughts" in a 45-70, jacketed OR cast, will handle a deer at woods distances at not much more than 1500 fs and most people can handle the recoil without complaint.

One reason I did the "switch barrel Marlin" was to have a caliber I could match to the game...356W for deer size, 444M and 458 American (450 Marlin) for bear and larger.

Just find a bullet that shoot accurately in your rifle and you like the looks of and go enjoy your toy.. cool

Luck

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Thanks NFG... Rabbitdog


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I use cast bullets in both my 45/70 and 2 of those .444 Marlin lever guns. Many of those type bullets are just to hard for animals like deer etc. I like em to spread out a little and perform more damage on tissue.

I use a lot of thoes Remington 405 bullets purchased in bulk. I have a friend of mine who makes his cast bullets and they are really nice for thin skinned critters like deer more lead in his bullets.


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I'm shooting Laser Cast 405gr over Unique. Shoots accurate and very little leading in a Marlin.

18.5" Marlin 1895
405gr Laser Cast
CCI 200
Rem brass

Unique
16gr - 1300 fps
15gr - 1250 fps
14gr - 1190 fps
13gr - 1120 fps
12gr - 1050 fps

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=796585

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Have you tried Varget for a load in the range of 1450fps?

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When I was developing loads for my 458 American in the SMLE, basically the same case capacity as a 45-70, I contacted AA for information on which powder(s) of theirs would work the best at <45KCUP. Johan replied that AA2460 was 5% lower in pressure at equal amounts so I tried it.

AA2460 gave me the highest velocity and lowest pressures and longest case life of ANY powder I had tried so far...ALL the powders except VV that fell into that specific pressure range for the specific case volume of those cases.

The most accurate load, ~<1" at 125yds with the Lazer cast, 430 TrueShot "Silver bullet" would give me well over 10 firings per case...10 being my limit for heavy loaded rounds. AA2230 would be giving up at 8-10 firings and some of the other faster burining powders like 4198 only give 5 or so...H4895 was also a good one.

Varget was a bit slow for my taste, but gave a full case, good accuracy but lower velocities than I wanted. RL-15 was also good for a full case, low velo but accurate with several bullets from 300 to 525 gr.

I like a full case right to the base of the bullet and slightly compressed, which also helps keep the bullet from moving backwards from recoil and getting whacked by the other bullets in the tube mag...bullet movement is not quite as bad in a stack mag if you have a tight neck fit and crimp.

Lots of good powders and bullets for the 45-70 for whatever weight and velocity you happen to like. I shoot more bullets over the chrono than in the field definitely when it comes to all my large cals...but those large cal, heavy bullets whack, dig a hole and bury all those sageratz that happen to get in the way...Hahahahahah

Luck

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I have a few 45-70's, and I cast my own bullets for the rifles.

Personally I like the 405 grain bullet. And I normally shoot them between 1200 to 1600 fps. Depending on which rifle.

I use straight WW for these bullets. Expansion on deer is fantastic. They hit like a hammer. I prefer them well over the 300 grain bullet. The 45-70 is meant to be big and slow. Not small and fast.

IMO leading is more a function of improper sizing rather than alloy content. Especially in the velocities you are talking about. And I do not like the hard alloys for hunting with a 45-70 at 1200-1600 fps.

Slug your bore and get a properly sized bullet. I am sure it will work out. Tom.


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I don't mean to hijack the thread, but it seems like the original question was well answered.

I inherited an 1873 Springfield trapdoor about 9 months ago. It's pretty weather worn, and took a lot of TLC to get it back to a state where the rifling was visible. Regardless metallurgicaly speaking. it's a little rough, sort of a bumpy surface over the whole outside of the barrel. However, I took it to a gunsmith (pro-shop owner of a local range) who eyeballed it for a few minutes and said "yeah should be fine, just go easy on her, but I see no need for you to use black powder"

I am a newbie to reloading, been reloading .303 Brit for about 6 months. So, straight cases are something new. I have IMR 4350 and 405 cast balls, and some once-fired cases, and some I believe to have never been fired (super clean, no primers)

My overall question is, in a old dog of an 1873 trapdoor, would it be safe/advisable to load the above mentioned 54 grains of IMR 4350. If not, what would you suggest?

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Originally Posted by reenact12321
My overall question is, in a old dog of an 1873 trapdoor, would it be safe/advisable to load the above mentioned 54 grains of IMR 4350. If not, what would you suggest?

In an original 1873 Trapdoor, I would not use IMR 4350 or any other smokeless powder. Wouldn't hesitate to do so in a reproduction Trapdoor, but not a nearly 140 year old rifle. Real BP (or a sub such as Pyrodex) would be a lot safer, and more fun, in an old action.

That's just my opinion, without seeing the gun . . . If you trust the gunsmith, load some up and let him pull the trigger.


Someday I hope to be the person my dogs think I am . . .
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
Someone once said "a nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
Shiloh Sharps . . . there is no substitute.
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Otter has it right. NO WAY would I shoot smokeless in an old beater 45-70 Trapdoor. In fact, If I shot it at all, it would be with 1f black powder and a 400 grain bullet.

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Gotta say I agree...

BP never smokeless.

I would not even use trailboss

But it is your rifle.


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