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#5451224 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: nighthawk]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36549
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
nighthawk,

Ah, another one of those famous "examples of one"....

An awful lot of hunters decide they know all about killing power after a few dozen animals, because each instance is magnified. But if you see a few hundred (or a few thousand) taken, you become aware that "killing power" (like anything that depends on numerous variables) follows a bell curve.

Anything can happen at the far ends of the curve, whether dropping an elephant with a .22 rimfire to having a whitetail doe run off quite a ways after a heart-lung shot from a perfectly adequate deer rifle.

One of my favorite examples of one was a springbok I shot during a cull hunt in South Africa almost a decade ago. I was testing the then-new (and short-lived) 260-grain .375 Nosler Ballistic Tip. It had worked very well up to that point, dropping various animals up to over 500 pounds quickly, and penetrating deeply.

A pair of springbok came trotting along, a male and female, pushed by drivers on horseback in the valley below. They didn't look all that alarmed, so I tracked them and when they stopped I shot the male (or "ram" as they're called). He dropped right there, as you might expect from an 80-pound animal shot with a .375 H&H.

The ewe ran a little way at the shot, then stopped to look back at where the ram dropped. At the shot she took off running again, going close to 100 yards before slowing and then falling. There was a hole on the other side of the chest you could stick the end of a football in.

From that experience we might extrapolate that the .375 H&H isn't really enough for antelope the size of Labrador retrievers, or that it was a really good thing when Nosler bonded the 260-grain Ballistic Tip less than a year later, because it wasn't tough enough. Instead, all it meant was that sometimes bullet diameter, expansion and velocity don't affect animals the way we theorize they should!
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5451270 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mule Deer]
CrimsonTide Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 16966
Loc: Kentucky
Some creatures (and people) don't give up the ghost like others do.
_________________________
"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Thomas Jefferson


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#5451287 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: CrimsonTide]
ingwe Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 57149
Loc: Southwestern Montucky
True dat, John, or his lovely bride Eileen will have to tell you the story of her antelope buck in Wyoming sometime....it was apparently beamed down as a cyborg from a spaceship in the future...and mere bullets couldn't kill it! shocked
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" Tell 'em we done it for Dixie and nothing else...."

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#5451296 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: ingwe]
Mark R Dobrenski Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/19/01
Posts: 28277
Loc: Bozeman, Montana
I had a deal like that once as well, we called her the whitetail from hell. Lets just say that the brawl included my 340 and enough 250 Speers to take on a small country. And it was an Igloo deer if you catch my drift.. wink

Dober
_________________________
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy

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#5451301 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mark R Dobrenski]
ingwe Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 57149
Loc: Southwestern Montucky
I had one too...a smallish mule deer buck in the Marias river breaks we dubbed " The Terminator"...

Nuff said... eek
_________________________
" Tell 'em we done it for Dixie and nothing else...."

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#5451309 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: ingwe]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36549
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
That's a good story!

As many people have noticed, an alarmed or rutting animal is often harder to kill.

That particular pronghorn buck was severely "harassing" a doe. Eileen placed the first shot perfectly at about 200 yards, putting a 120-grain Nosler Partition from her .257 Roberts tight behind the buck's shoulder. Blood started pumping from the exit hole in a stream almost an inch in diameter, indicating one of the major blood vessels had been whacked.

After a light reaction to the sound of the shot, the buck started harassing the doe again. Eileen shot him again, pretty much in the same place, whereupon he quit bothering the doe and eventually bedded down, and then lay his head down. When Eileen and our friend Casey Tillard approaching him, though, his head came up and he tried to horn Casey. Eileen shot him again at least twice with the .257 before the buck finally decided to expire. When field-dressed, there wasn't any blood pooled in the chest cavity, because he had finally, totally bled out, over a period of several minutes.

From that we might extrapolate that a .375 H&H might be adequate for pronghorns--if it wasn't for that doe springbok in South Africa.

_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5451311 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: ingwe]
Mark R Dobrenski Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/19/01
Posts: 28277
Loc: Bozeman, Montana
Yeah the Marias river critters can be tough, that's where I encountered the yote from hell also.

The Terminator bucks and such will test ones hunting/cartidge maturity just a wee bit.

Dober
_________________________
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy

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#5451322 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mark R Dobrenski]
ingwe Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 57149
Loc: Southwestern Montucky
True dat...Shari got one too...a nicish mule deer buck that finally augered in after 7 shots.....seven nice entrance holes in the chest cavity, seven nice exit holes...the " Swiss" deer... grin
_________________________
" Tell 'em we done it for Dixie and nothing else...."

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#5451326 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: ingwe]
Mark R Dobrenski Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/19/01
Posts: 28277
Loc: Bozeman, Montana
Those Swiss are tough bastids...grin

Dober
_________________________
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy

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#5451484 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mark R Dobrenski]
John Frazer Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 3009
Loc: Northern Virginia, USA
A friend of a friend in northern Maine shot a big whitetail buck up there several times in the chest before it went down. I don't recall how many times for sure, but it was something like 3-5 shots ... with a muzzleloader.

I don't have the details of shot placement or bullet type, but given the amount of time it had to take to reload, I'm not sure it really matters.

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#5451519 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: John Frazer]
CrimsonTide Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 16966
Loc: Kentucky
WITH A MUZZLELOADER! Now that deer was a Masochist!
_________________________
"Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Thomas Jefferson


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#5451614 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mule Deer]
Shag Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 6468
Loc: Cowlitz County
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
HA!

Actually, I just bought a really nice little Husqvarna .243 from the Campfire. It weighs 7 pounds with scope, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it shoots. (I already know the .243 can kill stuff....)


Now that sounds like a neat rifle!!!
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2015 AFC West Champions
Oakland Raiders

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#5451891 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Shag]
LBP Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 3885
Loc: Central, Texas
I remember that story of the Cyborg Goat.

I've had one hog that was like that she took several shots from several rifles, ironically the final rifle that finshed the nasty affair was a 243. But I know it was just coincidence as all the rifle were adequate for Miss Piggy...
_________________________
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.

The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.

Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.

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#5451973 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mule Deer]
High_Brass Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 4218
Loc: Parkersburg, WV
Got Savage 110 in 243 that I have had for 20 years. It's worn 3-4 scopes, shot 70, 80, 85, and 100gr bullets into very tight groups and has killed several deer. There is bluing wear on the bolt knob, safety, and trigger for good reason. Groups have opened up a bit (still under 1") and I figure it's f due to wear. I have shot the schitt out of it because it's accurate and doesn't kick like European soccer player. Never had to track a deer that I shot with it either. They have either dropped like a rock or I saw 'em fall. All deer were shot with (wait for it) 100gr Remington Core Lokts that were handloaded. One thing I have found with this gun is that you pick a bullet and about any powder and you'll get the thing to shoot like it's paid for it. Heck with 70gr Hornady SPs (which are very short for their weight) and 43gr of Big Game, Dad and I taking turns shooting shot a 7 shot group at 100 yards about 3/4". To me, that was impressive.
_________________________
Karma and Trouble have busses, and there's always an empty seat.

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#5452013 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: High_Brass]
LBP Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 3885
Loc: Central, Texas
The 100 gr Core-Lokt's are what I have used the most too...
_________________________
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.

The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.

Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.

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#5452094 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: LBP]
High_Brass Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 4218
Loc: Parkersburg, WV
I hear ya LBP. Slap a deer in the important parts and get your knife ready.
_________________________
Karma and Trouble have busses, and there's always an empty seat.

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#5452289 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: LBP]
nifty-two-fifty Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 1360
Loc: Far Northstate Calif
Ingwe"s Swiss deer reminded me of my first antelope. I was crawling up an easy rise hoping to get a shot down the other side where a small group of antelope were grazing. Unknownst to me they were walking up the other side, almost straight towards me. Well before I reached the top, a nice, younger, but very shootable buck sky-lined himself right in front of me at about 100 yards. He turned almost broadside and stared at me, and posed like a statue. I was quickly in a classic kneeling position to clear the intervening grass and low sage and the first shot went. Not a flinch or the bat of an eyelash of reaction from the buck as the bolt action seemed to operate itself, the cross-hairs settled and the second shot was off.

Again, no reaction whatsoever. My mind reeled as the bolt operated itself again. "I can't believe I am missing." "Is my scope knocked out of wack?" "Am I shooting at a phantom? Did I actually see the buck move before I started shooting?" "Could I be shooting at a decoy?" And then the third shot was on its way.

Again, no reaction. Three shots in about three seconds. "Am I shooting blanks?" "I give up! Lord, what is happening here?" The buck is still staring at me.

As I stand up erect, the buck slowly crumpled straight down in its spot. Very dead.

On the Campfire several folks are fond of saying we never get to shoot 3-shot groups on game. Well, sometimes we do.

Nicely placed on the chest were three 7mm holes in less than two inches. On the offside, three holes only slightly bigger, in less than two inches.

This occured very early in my big-game hunting career. I wasn't familiar with antelope, and I hadn't seen "statue-mode" before. Also, I expected my 7x57 to just "Knock 'em right off their feet like the Hammer of Thor" shooting the high-pressure Norma factory load with their 150 gr semi-pointed "Torpedo" bullet. After all, Mr Bell shot elephants with his 7x57.

That bullet would probably be good on elk. And before someone squawks about a sky-line shot, I was well aware of what was in that direction (wide-open prairie for miles). For you Easterners, if you haven't hunted Wyoming-type terrain it is hard to imagine. Like hunting on the moon, with grass and lots of low thorny stuff. And the only other human (or vehicle) within miles was my hunting partner well to my rear. Had he been up close to me he might have seen the first bullet impacting the hair on the chest in a good spot and been able to tell me to just take a couple of deep breathes and wait for the crumple.

Every hunt gives us another chance to learn something about our bullets and about the animals we hunt, and how they can react many different ways to the shot.
_________________________
Nifty-250

"If you don't know where you're going, you may wind up somewhere else".
Yogi Berra

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#5452410 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: nifty-two-fifty]
dubePA Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3943
Loc: PA
Read it the other day. Good article, even if'n it was actually a thinly-disguised 250 Savage/257 Bob scribble. ;O)
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If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.

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#5452529 - 07/24/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: dubePA]
Dirtfarmer Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/10
Posts: 13764
Loc: Central Louisiana
Originally Posted By: dubePA
Read it the other day. Good article, even if'n it was actually a thinly-disguised 250 Savage/257 Bob scribble. ;O)


Dube,

You saw that grin on his face with the speed goat, holding a Kimber Classic in .257 Bob. Like the cat that just ate the canary, feathers on it's mouth and all...

It WAS hard to tell that he was actually writing about the "other sixes" holding that Kimber...

Oh well...

Still a nice piece, that unfortunate detail, notwithstanding...

DF

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#5453124 - 07/25/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Dirtfarmer]
dubePA Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3943
Loc: PA
Quote:
You saw that grin on his face with the speed goat.


It is the gaze of the shameless hussy, were they whiskered?

I've seen that on the faces of reformed snake oil salesmen, former bond hawkers and repentant sinners, fresh from the waters of redemption.

Treachery of the finest crafting. Note that he even drags Ms B into it, by noting the failure of the 90gr ETip? ;O)
_________________________
If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.

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#5453138 - 07/25/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: dubePA]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36549
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Ah, yes, the agitators of the Internet!

Luckily, I have become somewhat immune to such nefarious nabobs of nonsense.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#5453217 - 07/25/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Mule Deer]
Steelhead Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 72947
Loc: Between Glib and Flippant
Can't fault a person for being a 25 caliber slut.
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#5453322 - 07/25/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Steelhead]
Kimber7man Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 10022
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Can think of a lot worse...
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Outta retirement...

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#5453514 - 07/25/11 Re: Mule Deer's 6mm American Rifleman article [Re: Kimber7man]
dubePA Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3943
Loc: PA
Fixed it. Ran a sheet of heavy stock paper through the printer and pasted it over P. 72. Now sez, "A Veiled Homage To Nearly Forgotten Quarter Bores".

Makes more sense and won't confuse anyone that winds up with this particular copy, years down the road. Yep. Looks just about right now. ;O)


Have had a 24" CM .257 bull barrel in the corner for some time. Could never decide if it needed to be a 250 Savage or 257 Roberts barrel? If it were a sporter barrel, one or the other would've already "happened".
_________________________
If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.

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