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Most of you have read a lot about government waste, but how about examples of military waste? I own a small electrical design & sell business near DC. I spent most of my career working for GE & Westinghouse involved with government/military contracts. I have seen first hand how vast amounts of taxpayers money have been thrown away over the past 40 years. I supplied high voltage equipment for a Navy project in DC. During the drawing approval stage we submitted numerous times with huge amounts of unnecessary supporting documents. As is typically the case the electrical specifications were incorrect. This happens most of the time. After all this documentation the Navy suddenly realizes the contract completion date is nearing & equipment is urgently needed. They approve drawings that were submitted many months before & then realize the equipment can't be built in time. Since its not the Navy's money(it's ours)they spend a substantial amount for overtime (how about 100%) & even special dedicated trucks at $2500 each to delivery the various equipment. Anyone that thinks this is an isolated example is kidding them selves. Imagine the vast multi-millions & billions the military contracts for defense weapons & facilities. The entire process is a cluster screw. The military & government hasn't a clue how to specify or manage any contract. I would believe that about 50% of our expenditures for military hardware & facilities is totally wasted. Contracts are improperly written, politically awarded in many cases, improperly managed, & no body really cares. If millions are wasted those involved still draw their salaries & continue down the same path wasting tax payer money year after year. Factor in entitlements, Foreign Aid, waste in SS & welfare & you have the answers to our budget short fall.


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If you know it is wrong and you wait til the last minute to speak up, Why? you milking the system too for more money?


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Enter a huge "Cluster" the F-35 !!!


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There sure is, the contractors are doing rather well by it. But i'll say a positive note for your old employer GE. They sure do make a good turbine engine (700/701 series), better then the darn Lycomings.

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Yep. The F35 is a very expensive white elephant. It's being tested down the street from where I type this. I know what the people who actually have to work on it say about it. sick

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I have an aunt and uncle that ran a small machine shop with 4 machinests in Washington state for many years. The majority of their business was government contracts(mostly Federal). Most of the items they built were already available on the market but the government had to have everything built to their exact specifications. These were all bid contracts and my aunt and uncle were fairly competitive because of their low overhead. A few years ago the US started letting China bid on these contracts. This put my aunt and uncle out of business in no time. It wasn't a hardship for them because they were ready to retire but it was a hardship for the 4 machinests and their families.

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tbear, yer screwin with my livelihood. wink


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You must be an idiot. I'm a small businessman & have no ability to change anything that the Navy or government does or doesn't do. No, I lost my a$$ on this order with all the changes, resubmittals, engineering time, calls to manufacturers, & on & on. My point is that this happens time & time again & no one in the military is accountable. We as tax payers pay for all the mismanagement. The media discusses entitlements & other wasteful programs, but little is every said about military contract waste. Your statement makes me want to puke.


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There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system


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Originally Posted by DayPacker
If you know it is wrong and you wait til the last minute to speak up, Why? you milking the system too for more money?


It does not work that way. Speak up and your contract may get terminated (not too many contracts these days) or your COTR (contracting Officer's Technical Representative) will chew you out. In an ideal world, you might be right, but in the real world, it just does not work that way.

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Originally Posted by victoro
I have an aunt and uncle that ran a small machine shop with 4 machinests in Washington state for many years. The majority of their business was government contracts(mostly Federal). Most of the items they built were already available on the market but the government had to have everything built to their exact specifications. These were all bid contracts and my aunt and uncle were fairly competitive because of their low overhead. A few years ago the US started letting China bid on these contracts. This put my aunt and uncle out of business in no time. It wasn't a hardship for them because they were ready to retire but it was a hardship for the 4 machinests and their families.


In a free enterprise society, anyone can bid on a job. Under the Buy America act, there must be 10% lower price if the product is made overseas. If you are too high, you lose. If you support free enterprise, that�s the law.

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"War" itself is the biggest economic scam in the history of the world.

How Cheney is still free of the gallows I'll never understand.

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Everything I'm involved with in the DC area requires American made products. Granted many subcomponents are made in foreign markets, but the electrical products have to be made in the US, Canada, or Mexico. There are exceptions of course. A few years ago the Navy issued a bid for VFDs for shipboard use that had to be 100% made in America. After lots of rebidding with no US manufacturer able to comply the requirement was dropped. Many of our electrical manufacturing plants are now owned by foreign corporations. Square D, Siemens, & ABB come to mind. I represent one of the largest high voltage transformer manufacturers in the world with a huge plant in Missouri that employees union workers. Profits go to Belgium. One of my old employers (GE) now makes transformers in Mexico. If a major war developed I'm not sure our domestic electrical industry could serve our needs. As my post stated the military waste so much tax payer money we should require everything used to be made 100% in America. Probably not possible, but it would be nice to grow our manufacturing base again.


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Originally Posted by tbear
... My point is that this happens time & time again & no one in the military is accountable. We as tax payers pay for all the mismanagement. ...


Been involved in this for years both in the Navy and as a contractor. What you say is generally true. But, I've found that to be the case govt wide. There are agencies much worse than DOD. It's what happens in any organization when individuals don't have any skin in the game.

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Originally Posted by prm
Originally Posted by tbear
... My point is that this happens time & time again & no one in the military is accountable. We as tax payers pay for all the mismanagement. ...


Been involved in this for years both in the Navy and as a contractor. What you say is generally true. But, I've found that to be the case govt wide. There are agencies much worse than DOD. It's what happens in any organization when individuals don't have any skin in the game.


There may be more inefficient agencies, but none with an annual ~ $680B budget, add discretionary spending and it's not even close.


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The Pentagon can't account for $2.3 Trillion(yes that's Trillion) and the military can't account for 25% of it's own spending.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kpWqdPMjmo



More money for the Pentagon, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports, while its own auditors admit the military cannot account for 25 percent of what it spends.

"According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions," Rumsfeld admitted.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml

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Pick on the uniforms with "great sources" like U tube and CBS news. Bottom line is uniformed officers have very little to say about spending. They set requirements and assess then it's in the hands of the politicans. I've written ad-nauseam here about procurement and how the Congress and mostly the civilian leadership drive that train. Make it worse today where the leadership both uniformed and civilial try to run an organization that is essentially wasteful by nature like a business, pad the budget with non-military expenditures and add contractors replacing jobs formerly done by uniformed personnel and you have the waste.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Pick on the uniforms with "great sources" like U tube and CBS news.




Do you think the video of Rumsfield saying the Pentagon can't account for $2.3 Trillion would be somehow different from another source?

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Our company is often involved in bidding government purchases. As stated, the process is ridiculous.

We went after a large procurement just a few miles from our offices. It was a big contract, and we pulled in some outside talent because the project was bigger than we could do alone. Just adding up the manpower and resources spent on the bid, I figured the total cost for our company to respond was about $250,000. And we were told after the fact that we had the best proposal.

But the bid went to another company. The bid was a small business set-aside, and the company that won isn't/wasn't a small business. Their consultant bluntly told my partner that it did not matter what was in our bid, he golfed the contract to his client.

So about 5-6 companies put in an effort similar to ours, spending probably a total of over $1,000,000 in proposals.

In the end, the company that got the contract nearly went broke because they staffed up, but the government only issued about 1% of the indicated Task Orders against the contract.

Now everyone involved has to charge more on their next venture, to make up for what they lost on that one.

And that, folks, is how you get $600 hammers. That's what our US Federal Acquisition Rules force. It's the cost of bidding and compliance with the regulatory overhead that runs up the cost. If they'd come in the front door, pick from the commercial off the shelf offerings, and pay net 30, they'd pay the same for a hammer as anyone else.


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That video was an initital take by Rumsfeld during the early to mid stages of the Iraq war and what he was addressing was that often-times operational requirements outweigh fiscal accuracy and I agree with that. Can it be cut? Oh you bet and I've written about that extensively and I'm too lazy to do it again.


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Procurement issues have been an ongoing problem for many moons.Typical example:When I arrived in SEA the first thing that struck me was.. over here on the tarmac we had multitudes of broken airplanes sitting awaiting parts,a shortage of 7.62 ammo but over here stateside beer piled up two stories high and exploding under tarps.C-130's and 141's coming in day after day with beer,but parts/ammo?? Nada!! Our maintenance people pulling their hair out to keep everyone as operationally ready as they could but by God we had beer and plenty of it!! We always said if the VC would ever overrun us we'd just lay down our weapons and hand out the beer!!! whistle


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This is typical with what I have seen in the DC area for 40 years. There are certain projects that are minority set-asides & only certified minority firms can bid. A few perform well, but most do poor work, cut corners, etc. Again, they get away with this because they are a minority. In DC everything for their government is bid as an 8A minority. Many minority firms have gotten rich from this system. Its standard practice for non-minority firms to give a kick back to a minority firm so they can bid DC work. I'm an engineer with 50 years experience in the high voltage field & specifications being issued on electrical products has never been worse. Transformers incorrectly specified & the project I referenced had 15KV switchgear. The Navy specified vault mounted switches, then pad mounted gas switches, & finally pad mounted fusible switches. The drawings indicated the correct product - switchgear. The design engineer constantly disapproved our submittals because they did not meet the specification which was incorrect. Letters that were written were ignored. Then panic set in when the switchgear was needed & 100% overtime was paid. The manufacturer lost money because of all the engineering work in preparing resubmittals & having to reorganize production. We could reduce the construction & weapon purchase budget by 50% & not lose anything if efficiency could be obtained. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. Every where we turn as tax payers there is inefficiency & waste in government, including the military, & both Democrats & Republicans continue down the same old road.


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Quote
Our maintenance people pulling their hair out to keep everyone as operationally ready as they could but by God we had beer and plenty of it!!


Well, we never ran out of beer where I was but toward the end of the month we were down to Falstaff and Carling Black label. Funny how at the first of the month Budweiser and the other good beers showed up. Right on time every month. miles


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Originally Posted by tbear
You must be an idiot. I'm a small businessman & have no ability to change anything that the Navy or government does or doesn't do. No, I lost my a$$ on this order with all the changes, resubmittals, engineering time, calls to manufacturers, & on & on. My point is that this happens time & time again & no one in the military is accountable..
Change that to: "no one in the government is accountable - and you got your answer..

If it has to do with gov't - it's full of pork, waste and inefficiency, period..


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Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
Our maintenance people pulling their hair out to keep everyone as operationally ready as they could but by God we had beer and plenty of it!!


Well, we never ran out of beer where I was but toward the end of the month we were down to Falstaff and Carling Black label. Funny how at the first of the month Budweiser and the other good beers showed up. Right on time every month. miles


From what I've been told Budweiser requires cash payment on every delivery to every vendor. Those others probably sold on credit...





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Received a design & build project issued by the Navy late yesterday that included a 15000 volt "Gas Impregnated Switch". I want to see a Navy engineer impregnate this switch. Definition of impregnate - imbue or permeate, to cause to conceive, make full, infuse, or best of all in a metaphorical sense to fill a container. Everyone in our local electrical industry is laughing their a$$ off at the Navy (again). They couldn't simply state "utilize SF6 gas bottles" like the utility industry. Just more psychobabble.


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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Pick on the uniforms with "great sources" like U tube and CBS news. Bottom line is uniformed officers have very little to say about spending. They set requirements and assess then it's in the hands of the politicans. I've written ad-nauseam here about procurement and how the Congress and mostly the civilian leadership drive that train. Make it worse today where the leadership both uniformed and civilial try to run an organization that is essentially wasteful by nature like a business, pad the budget with non-military expenditures and add contractors replacing jobs formerly done by uniformed personnel and you have the waste.


Jorge - you are right on with this post. I do want to note that in many programs, developmental and production costs are either, underestimated, not known, or just plain lied about until we learn publically that the program is way over-budget, is late and lacks the required performance.
The F-35 (a case in point, especially the B version) is at the $335 billion level, is late and, the exhibits low performance. Now we either pony up more $$$, or cancel the program (and waste the "invested" funding).
The Army's cancelled Crusader artillery piece is another. The current mechanized artillery system is the upgraded Paladin M109-A system. Ironically, after cancelling the Paladin, the Army incorporated many of the advanced into the now cancelled XM1203 Non-Line-of-sight artillery system, also cancelled due to increasing costs.
We do need to get a handle on realistic costs and performance before embarking on expensive full-scale developmental programs.

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Originally Posted by djs
There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system



Coming from someone who is milking the system for all he can, as fast as he can.




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Originally Posted by tbear
This is typical with what I have seen in the DC area for 40 years. There are certain projects that are minority set-asides & only certified minority firms can bid. A few perform well, but most do poor work, cut corners, etc. Again, they get away with this because they are a minority. In DC everything for their government is bid as an 8A minority. Many minority firms have gotten rich from this system. Its standard practice for non-minority firms to give a kick back to a minority firm so they can bid DC work. I'm an engineer with 50 years experience in the high voltage field & specifications being issued on electrical products has never been worse. Transformers incorrectly specified & the project I referenced had 15KV switchgear. The Navy specified vault mounted switches, then pad mounted gas switches, & finally pad mounted fusible switches. The drawings indicated the correct product - switchgear. The design engineer constantly disapproved our submittals because they did not meet the specification which was incorrect. Letters that were written were ignored. Then panic set in when the switchgear was needed & 100% overtime was paid. The manufacturer lost money because of all the engineering work in preparing resubmittals & having to reorganize production. We could reduce the construction & weapon purchase budget by 50% & not lose anything if efficiency could be obtained. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. Every where we turn as tax payers there is inefficiency & waste in government, including the military, & both Democrats & Republicans continue down the same old road.


+1 here. I have always opposed any form of set-asides (minority, small business, etc.). I want the best product at the lowest cost.

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Defense spending should be easy. Assess the threat, let those in the know put out the requirements to build a counter, compete the candidates, select a winner with REAL TIME capabilites, contract for the units required, pay a portion up front and the rest upn delivery. Congress should write the check and nothing else.


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Originally Posted by VAnimrod
Originally Posted by djs
There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system



Coming from someone who is milking the system for all he can, as fast as he can.


I have saved the government more than your entire lifetime tax payments will be, just by closing one $125 million project.

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Originally Posted by jorgeI
Defense spending should be easy. Assess the threat, let those in the know put out the requirements to build a counter, compete the candidates, select a winner with REAL TIME capabilites, contract for the units required, pay a portion up front and the rest upn delivery. Congress should write the check and nothing else.


Yes, in an ideal world. How big a check to write might depend on whose district the project falls or how many add-ons will be allowed.

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Originally Posted by djs
Originally Posted by VAnimrod
Originally Posted by djs
There are a lot of defense contracts that are known wastes of money; performance and budget are poor. Lower level military officers (AF/Army Colonels & Navy Captains who actually run the programs admit it. I have recommended cancelling several (only the Contracting Officer can legally cancel a contract) and feel that my recommendations have saved money; but then, it gets wasted elsewhere. These were in the order of about $100-125 million each, not big, but significant just the same.

The higher level officers are more career conscious than the lower level officers and rarely admit that it is time to pull the plug.

The problem is that each new project or technology appears to offer great benefits at first and then following contract award, the successful bidder starts finding issues that they told the Technical Evaluation panel were negligible or presented no major hurdle. Recall that in 1990 Defense Secretary Richard Cheney ordered the A-12 aircraft cancelled; years of litigation followed.

It is just a system of greedy contractors milking the system



Coming from someone who is milking the system for all he can, as fast as he can.


I have saved the government more than your entire lifetime tax payments will be, just by closing one $125 million project.


Yeah..... okay.

BTW - it isn't the gov't's money; it's the money the gov't extorted from the citizens, and that money was never refunded.

Thus, you only allowed .gov to move it from one project to another, and saved no one anything.




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Nothing personal Sean, just a question. Do you bring as much negativity into your life, employment and family as you do here - or is it just me?

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My employment, family, and life is pretty damned good, thank you.

No thanks to .gov, lie-berals, and either side of Team Fed.




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That bad, huhh - on all counts?

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