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#5572362 - 08/30/11 05:22 PM Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder!
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25408
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
The Prosecuting Attorney in Logan County says he wants to be careful what he says publicly about a case involving a Logan man who allegedly shot and killed the man who robbed him.

It happened earlier this week at the Logan Wal-Mart.

"At this time, we're still gathering information, statements and whatever else they can come up with, evidence and I really don't want to comment at all," Prosecuting Attorney John Bennett said on Thursday's MetroNews Talkline.

Logan Police say David Abbot, 37, from Chapmanville had taken money from Jesus Canul, 26, of Logan (pictured above right) who had just cashed his paycheck at Wal-Mart.

Abbot threatened Canul with a sharp object, possibly scissors, during that robbery.

Once he took off with the money in the parking lot, reports indicate Canul, who has a concealed weapon permit, pulled out a gun and allegedly shot Abbot in the head. Abbot died at the Logan County Medical Center.

Canul claims he was acting in self defense, but Bennett says there are clear legal definitions for that.

"If and when it ever gets to a grand jury, the judge would instruct them specifically on the law of self defense in this state." He says he has seen cases like this one before now.

"The facts are always somewhat different but, in many respects, quite similar."

At this point, Canul is facing murder charges.

This happened in West Virginia by the name i would bet the robber was a Illegal
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#5572387 - 08/30/11 05:29 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
CoalCracker Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 677
Loc: PA
Reminds me of some of the best legal advice I ever read. If you ever need to defend yourself in any way, tell the authorities ONLY that you were the victim of a crime and feared for your life. Anything beyond that will be forthcoming AFTER you retain an attorney.

Even if the LEOs on scene appear to be "on your side", you never know how they really feel or how a potential prosecutor may view your story.

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#5572395 - 08/30/11 05:31 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
Scott F Offline
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Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Many places if not most this would be a bad shoot. When the bad guy turned and ran the danger was over. If he had shot when the bad guy was in his face and armed to would be a different story.

I know in Washington this would not end well for the shooter.
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#5572420 - 08/30/11 05:37 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
stxhunter Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 17505
Loc: south texas-Corpus Christi
not in TX
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I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull
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#5572430 - 08/30/11 05:39 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: stxhunter]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Yep. Texas is far in the lead as far in castle doctrine and self defense.
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#5572461 - 08/30/11 05:48 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
Cheesy Offline
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Registered: 01/14/04
Posts: 6443
Loc: SW Missouri
At least he won't be robbing anybody anymore.

Put me on the jury.

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#5572476 - 08/30/11 05:50 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Cheesy]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.
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#5572487 - 08/30/11 05:54 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
milespatton Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/31/02
Posts: 10766
Loc: Arkansas
Might be a good place for Jury nullification. miles
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#5572495 - 08/30/11 05:55 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: milespatton]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25408
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
If i was on the Jury it would be not guilty.
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#5572503 - 08/30/11 05:58 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: milespatton]
Wildalaska Offline
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Registered: 09/02/09
Posts: 604
Loc: In My Easy Chair in Alaska
No one here has enough facts to make a judgement.

WildsowhyargueoveritAlaska 2002-2011
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#5572507 - 08/30/11 05:59 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 15011
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
When the bad guy turned and ran the danger was over


This statement makes no sense. What about the danger of not paying his bills or not geting food for his kids? Do you think the power company cares why you don't have any money?

I see it as a totally righteous shoot.
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#5572515 - 08/30/11 06:03 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Wildalaska]
Penguin Offline
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5561
Loc: The great midwest
I'm assuming this is West Virginia based on the names of the towns. If so then, yes, he is guilty of murder. You cannot run someone down from behind after a robbery and shoot them in the head. It isn't, and shouldn't be, legal.

I'm all for self defense but you have to actually be defending yourself in order to be within the law.

Will
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#5572523 - 08/30/11 06:05 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: Ringman
Quote:
When the bad guy turned and ran the danger was over


This statement makes no sense. What about the danger of not paying his bills or not geting food for his kids? Do you think the power company cares why you don't have any money?

I see it as a totally righteous shoot.


Not in Washington, not in Oregon. Not is the story that was posted was the real story. Shooting a fleeing robber in the back of the head will get you hard time in most states.

Better read up on your state laws my friend.
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#5572530 - 08/30/11 06:09 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
tbear99 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 7860
Loc: UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted By: Ringman
Quote:
When the bad guy turned and ran the danger was over


This statement makes no sense. What about the danger of not paying his bills or not geting food for his kids? Do you think the power company cares why you don't have any money?

I see it as a totally righteous shoot.



danger of not paying bills is not life threatining.This is flat bad shoot.Do you feel for the guy yes if he would of shot while being threatened this would not be news
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#5572544 - 08/30/11 06:12 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: tbear99]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Yep. Will be interesting to see how this one turns out.
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#5572545 - 08/30/11 06:12 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
ford8n Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 764
Loc: Madison, Virginia
Originally Posted By: Scott F
Originally Posted By: Ringman
Quote:
When the bad guy turned and ran the danger was over


This statement makes no sense. What about the danger of not paying his bills or not geting food for his kids? Do you think the power company cares why you don't have any money?

I see it as a totally righteous shoot.


Not in Washington, not in Oregon. Not is the story that was posted was the real story. Shooting a fleeing robber in the back of the head will get you hard time in most states.

Better read up on your state laws my friend.



Yep, shooting someone in the back around here would not be legal either. No self defense there.

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#5572583 - 08/30/11 06:23 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 13585
Loc: North texas usa
"This happened in West Virginia by the name i would bet the robber was a Illegal "

David Abbot is an "illegal's" name ?
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#5572584 - 08/30/11 06:23 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: ford8n]
CoalCracker Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/23/10
Posts: 677
Loc: PA
What if the shooter says that he was certain the robber turned around, reached into his waistband, and appeared to be drawing a weapon?

Reasonable enough doubt for an acquittal?

I'm not saying a person should lie under oath, but I wouldn't be flapping my gums at the scene until I had legal representation in order to get my side of the story on the right side of the law, to the greatest extent possible.


Edited by CoalCracker (08/30/11 06:27 PM)

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#5572588 - 08/30/11 06:24 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Wildalaska]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 15011
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
No one here has enough facts to make a judgement.


This is the internet. We make judgements based on the facts the poster gives us.
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#5572599 - 08/30/11 06:27 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: tbear99]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 15011
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
danger of not paying bills is not life threatining.This is flat bad shoot.Do you feel for the guy yes if he would of shot while being threatened this would not be news


The liberal media would call it murder and a liberal D.A. would see it as murder even if the guy was stabbed while shooting the perp.
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#5572636 - 08/30/11 06:42 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
257wby Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/20/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Minnesota
Armed robbery is not a capital crime in any jurisdiction. The guy is in front of you with a weapon demanding money...cap him on the spot in the front.

Guy is running away? You better tackle him because it's not self defense anymore.
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#5572655 - 08/30/11 06:47 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
Pipefitz Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 5
S S S !

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#5572662 - 08/30/11 06:50 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Cheesy]
shreck Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 16601
Loc: littoral North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Cheesy
At least he won't be robbing anybody anymore.

Put me on the jury.


Yep put me on the jury.
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#5572675 - 08/30/11 06:53 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: shreck]
toltecgriz Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 17198
You are all assuming he intended to hit him in the head. Probably just tried to "wing him" to make him drop the money....
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#5572694 - 08/30/11 06:57 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: toltecgriz]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
grin
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#5572697 - 08/30/11 06:58 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: toltecgriz]
doubletap Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 5018
Loc: Atlanta
The guy was so distraught from being robbed that he was shaking and accidentally gripped the gun too tight and it inadvertently discharged. The fact that the robber was hit in the head was just pure bad luck.
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#5572701 - 08/30/11 07:00 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Wildalaska]
loyburkes Offline
New Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 10
TEXAS is the place to live according to Texas penal code 9.42 you can shoot their ass half mile away in back of their head if you can hit them and you can do it if it your neighbors property also.

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#5572842 - 08/30/11 07:35 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 34741
Loc: La Grange, TX
I have not had a renewal course in a few years, but IIRC, in TX that could have been a bad shooting too.

IIRC you can shoot that guy as he goes away, but you can't kill him, you can only injure him.

Thinking the terms are something like lethal and non lethal force and their differences.

Now if it was at night, its all totally legal basically.

I could be mistaken though.

Damn shame you can't kill someone after the fact though... I mean it was THEY that engaged, and you simply had to pick your time when it was safe to kill them in return, but no... can't do that....
How could the thug be assured of not being killed? Simple as hell, don't rob anyone. Pretty simple to me.
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#5572869 - 08/30/11 07:41 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: rost495]
catosilvaje Offline
Member

Registered: 04/03/10
Posts: 238
Loc: Elm creek Cooke county
In Montague co. Texas it would be a NO BILL then they would send you to a Clint Smith type school to teach you to draw faster.
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#5572887 - 08/30/11 07:46 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: rost495]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 13585
Loc: North texas usa
I think the "at night" deal is valid in rural areas only.I don't believe "rural areas" is defined anymore than the phrase.
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#5572893 - 08/30/11 07:47 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: catosilvaje]
Archerhunter Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 13780
Loc: A sandy knoll,
Only one SSS proponent?

Damn. What a disappointing crowd.
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#5572914 - 08/30/11 07:52 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Archerhunter]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 13585
Loc: North texas usa
Walmart parking lots are paved.
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#5572955 - 08/30/11 08:06 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: curdog4570]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
And have cameras and lots of people watching.
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#5573052 - 08/30/11 08:40 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
crossfireoops Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 45483
Loc: Southeastern AZ
I think it was a fear induced AD, and the slug bounced of the pavement, your Honor,.....so does the rest of the jury,....

very bad Kharma / Mojo,....plain and simple.

GTC
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#5573062 - 08/30/11 08:43 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: crossfireoops]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
I wish that would work but I am thinking this guy is in deep...
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#5573079 - 08/30/11 08:52 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
crossfireoops Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 45483
Loc: Southeastern AZ
Some time not so far back, here in My closest town,....

GTC

82 Year Old Shoots At Attacker

82-year-old fights off attacker

March 15, 2010
SIERRA VISTA - An 82-year-old woman takes matters into her own hands after she's attacked in a Wal-Mart parking lot in Sierra Vista.

Police said the suspect Stephen Prickett beat the woman with her own cane until she grabbed her gun from her purse and started firing.

After a few days in the hospital, she's out and told News 4 all about it.

She said she was just walking to her car with some groceries when she was approached by the suspect. She said, "In a very mild voice he said, 'this is your day. You are too old to be alive anyway.'"

Moments later she said he grabbed her cane and started beating her and she's got the bruises to prove it. She said, "I got boo boos where I didn't know I had a place to put boo boos."

She eventually went for the gun in her purse and opened fire. She didn't hit him but said it still saved her life. She said, "In the long run I think it saved me because if I hadn't shot the thing no one would have known there was anything wrong and come running."

Wal-Mart employees came to her rescue and police weren't far behind.

Police said the victim did absolutely everything right. As for the suspect, they said he made a big mistake. Tracy Grady with the Sierra Vista Police Department said, "He picked the wrong woman. She was the wrong target."

And the self proclaimed "stubborn, old broad" said you can say that again. She said, "If I go naturally or to a sickness or something, fine. I'm ready to go, but I'm not ready to let some idiot like that take me out."

The victim said owning a gun isn't for everyone but added with the proper training it's a good idea particularly for elderly people like her that are becoming victim's more and more often.

( a good friend TRAINED this neat old Gal, and got her all lined out for CCW, ....GTC)

The suspect was arrested shortly after the attack. He's facing multiple charges including attempted murder.

82-year-old fights off attacker | KVOA.com | Tucson, Arizona
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#5573088 - 08/30/11 08:57 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: crossfireoops]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
That one is not only a justified shoot it brought a huge grin yo my face. Good for her.
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#5573108 - 08/30/11 09:08 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
loyburkes Offline
New Member

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 10
Like I said read the Texas penal codes 9.41 thru 9.44 . If you don't believe that read about the Joe Horn shooting incident in Pasadena Tx a couple of years ago.He killed two guys who burgularized his neighbors house while he was on the phone with the police and was nobilled end of the story.

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#5573257 - 08/30/11 10:39 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: loyburkes]
TexasRick Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 3046
Loc: East Texas
They won't believe it loyburkes. I've tried to explain how the law is written in Texas to those from other areas many times....sometimes with a copy of the Penal Code in hand. No one will believe that we have the rights we do even when they read it with their own eyes.


Damn I love being from Texas!
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#5573265 - 08/30/11 10:45 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: TexasRick]
2legit2quit Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 12383
Loc: cold & forbidden
God Bless Texas!
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#5573284 - 08/30/11 11:03 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 2legit2quit]
stray round Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 3009
Hopefully someone on this guys jury will understand that the world is better place without the robber and the shooter did everyone a favor and vote not guilty.

In my opinion that would be justice. Anyone going around threatening people peacefully conducting their business is a danger to everyone.

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#5573291 - 08/30/11 11:09 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: curdog4570]
NathanL Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 12742
Loc: MS/LA/TX
Most everywhere I have lived it would come down to the DA and I would say it would be better than 50/50 you would walk with no charge.
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#5573328 - 08/31/11 12:04 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 257wby]
Flower_Child Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 532
Loc: VIRGINIA
Maybe it isn't a Capital offense nowadays but it sure as hell used to be. Check out the history of Northfield, Minnesota. Also, the punishment for stealing cattle, a man's horse, kidnapping, rape, etc. These were all capital offenses until the wussy lawyers started reversing common sense law with their perverted versions of "fairness" concerning what can and should happen to criminals and issuing hunting rules regarding the lawfullness of the way in which you are allowed prevent crime, punish offenders, protect yourself, and recover what is rightfully yours. It's high time we as the governed changed things back to the way things used to be. A good start would be to make it unlawful for any member of the justice system to run for election or to be appointed to any legislative or executive position in government and thereby maintaining the divisions of governmental power and authority/jurisdiction as delineated in the Constitution. Sooner or later this has got to happen as the "Law" gets more unfair, insane, and ridiculous every day.

Flower Child

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#5573371 - 08/31/11 03:16 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
Mannlicher Online   happy
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 44618
Loc: N. Central Florida, and Miami
you can't shoot someone who is no longer a threat. If he runs, he 'walks'. That has been the decision in a number of cases, most recently that of the pharmacist that was robbed.
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I named my Dog..........wait for it.........Muhammad laugh

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#5573562 - 08/31/11 05:47 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Mannlicher]
WildWest Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 1977
Where was the robber running to? Was he running for a gun? Running to get to a better spot to attack again? Running to get buddies to come and attack again? All have assumed he was running to get away from guy with gun and stay away? Who knows his real intent was?

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#5573583 - 08/31/11 05:57 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: WildWest]
Mannlicher Online   happy
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 44618
Loc: N. Central Florida, and Miami
and that's why we go to court. shocked

let me add though, that in my oh so humble opinion, if a person commits a crime, if he uses a gun to rob, burgle or the like, then anything and everything that happens subsequent to that should be HIS fault.
If someone shoots and kills him, oh well...........


Edited by Mannlicher (08/31/11 06:01 AM)
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I named my Dog..........wait for it.........Muhammad laugh

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#5573676 - 08/31/11 06:33 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: loyburkes]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 34741
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: loyburkes
Like I said read the Texas penal codes 9.41 thru 9.44 . If you don't believe that read about the Joe Horn shooting incident in Pasadena Tx a couple of years ago.He killed two guys who burgularized his neighbors house while he was on the phone with the police and was nobilled end of the story.


If the law was cut and dry, it wouldn't even go to grand jury then.
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#5573703 - 08/31/11 06:45 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Wildalaska]
djs Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 17151
Loc: Virginia
I believe the law is pretty clear on this in most states. Once the threat is over, you can't shoot just because you are mad or to regain property. Now if the victim shot while the guy was facing him with the sharp object, it would be a different situation.

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#5573713 - 08/31/11 06:48 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Mannlicher]
djs Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 17151
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Mannlicher
and that's why we go to court. shocked

let me add though, that in my oh so humble opinion, if a person commits a crime, if he uses a gun to rob, burgle or the like, then anything and everything that happens subsequent to that should be HIS fault.
If someone shoots and kills him, oh well...........


Sam, perhaps we agree on this one. However, I do think the perp needs to be in the victim's house or a confined space; the victim can not just run down the street shooting at the perp.

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#5573748 - 08/31/11 06:59 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: loyburkes]
Scott F Offline
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Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: loyburkes
Like I said read the Texas penal codes 9.41 thru 9.44 . If you don't believe that read about the Joe Horn shooting incident in Pasadena Tx a couple of years ago.He killed two guys who burgularized his neighbors house while he was on the phone with the police and was nobilled end of the story.


Like I said above, Texas is way out in front in their laws on this one.

But, please note, this did not go down in Texas and as far as I know there are no other states where this would be justified.

If the information in the OP is true and that is what the DA and the jury will see then this guy is going away for a while.
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#5573753 - 08/31/11 07:01 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
Scott F Offline
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Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
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In Washington this would not have been a good shooting unless the robber was equally or greater armed and the victim had retreated as far as he could go. It is not enough here to be confronted face to face with a robber who is armed. You as the victim must retreat and try to get away.
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#5573755 - 08/31/11 07:02 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: djs]
Monkey_Joe Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 1822
Cat approaches you with a lethal weapon and robs you and someone is going to impose some "fair fight" fantasy on you? You can sure tell that we have a shortage of people who have ever actually been in a serious fight.

I know that the limp-wristed have made this the law of the land (mostly), but if someone has threatened your life and stolen a portion of your livelihood then his is forfeit at the first opportunity. Screw a bunch of fair-fight bullcrap.
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#5573757 - 08/31/11 07:03 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
cal74 Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 5009
Loc: Brookings, South Dakota
Originally Posted By: bea175
If i was on the Jury it would be not guilty.



Exactly


If more people committing violent crimes were shot/killed than the next guy might think twice about doing a similar thing.

Give the shooter a medal and a small reward as far as I'm concerned.
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#5573764 - 08/31/11 07:04 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 257wby]
Redneck Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 38270
Loc: TAXHELLWI. USA
Originally Posted By: CoalCracker
Reminds me of some of the best legal advice I ever read. If you ever need to defend yourself in any way, tell the authorities ONLY that you were the victim of a crime and feared for your life...
Exactly...

Originally Posted By: Ringman
Quote:
When the bad guy turned and ran the danger was over


This statement makes no sense. What about the danger of not paying his bills or not geting food for his kids? Do you think the power company cares why you don't have any money?

I see it as a totally righteous shoot.
And in a majority of states, you'd be wrong - then convicted and sent to prison..

Originally Posted By: 257wby
Armed robbery is not a capital crime in any jurisdiction. The guy is in front of you with a weapon demanding money...cap him on the spot in the front.

Guy is running away? You better tackle him because it's not self defense anymore.
Exactly...
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#5573767 - 08/31/11 07:08 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Monkey_Joe]
Scott F Offline
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Registered: 12/28/00
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While I agree with you the law does not. It is your choice in a face to face, judged by 12 or carried my 6. But in most states except for Texas you will be judged by 6. It is the law.

Shooting a fleeing robber in the back of the head who only showed something sharp will get you time away from home. Count on it.
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#5573849 - 08/31/11 07:36 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 2legit2quit]
louiethedrifter Offline
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Registered: 10/29/10
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Loc: Texas Gulf Coast
I hope he has a good Lawyer,and a Jury like Casey Anthony's
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#5573870 - 08/31/11 07:42 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 12970
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.


You are a puss.

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#5573876 - 08/31/11 07:43 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
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Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Not self-defense, but if that's the only way to stop a robber, I think the law should permit it. Property is a very fundamental right. Seems that in a case like this where a robber, who used credible deadly force threats to accomplish a larceny, and is killed at some point after the robbery, but while still in "the heat" of the felonious act, and when no other action will stop the robber from absconding with the ill gotten goods, an exception ought to be codified in law.
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#5573879 - 08/31/11 07:43 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
17ACKLEYBEE Offline
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Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 19503
Loc: A wash in the west.
Ah he should have used a crossbow!
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#5573883 - 08/31/11 07:45 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: CoalCracker]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: CoalCracker
Reminds me of some of the best legal advice I ever read. If you ever need to defend yourself in any way, tell the authorities ONLY that you were the victim of a crime and feared for your life. Anything beyond that will be forthcoming AFTER you retain an attorney.

Even if the LEOs on scene appear to be "on your side", you never know how they really feel or how a potential prosecutor may view your story.
Absolutely. Just "I was the victim of a crime and feared for my life." That's it till you've spoken to your attorney.
_________________________
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#5573891 - 08/31/11 07:47 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.
As a juror you stand in judgment both of the facts and the law. If you determine that in a particular case the law, applied literally, would result in an injustice, it's your right and duty to acquit.
_________________________
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#5573895 - 08/31/11 07:49 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
bea175 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 02/15/02
Posts: 25408
Loc: Kpt.,TN , Montgomery, Co, VA
agree
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#5573898 - 08/31/11 07:49 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Wildalaska]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Wildalaska
No one here has enough facts to make a judgement.

WildsowhyargueoveritAlaska 2002-2011
Naturally, anything we say here assumes the facts are as described. If it turns out not to be the case, we'd have to reevaluate our responses. This is pretty standard.
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#5573928 - 08/31/11 07:57 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
Boise Offline
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Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 4209
Loc: Rapid City, SD, US
Feel free to call me a puss but if someone just threatened me with a 'sharp object' and robbed me I would be in fear for my life regardless if the individual was facing me or not. He could just as likely spin around and kill me or may be thinking he is going to get a more deadly weapon.

I've never been robbed but am fairly certain I would be in a altered mental state for sometime after the initial confrontation. I'm certain my understanding of the duration of my life being endangered would be much different than any other time.
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#5573956 - 08/31/11 08:07 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Take_a_knee]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
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Originally Posted By: Take_a_knee
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.


You are a puss.


grin Thank you Sir.

But I have a question for you. Have you ever sat of a jury and listened to the case for a week or more that had to listen to the judge lecture you on the law? It does not come down to how you feel about the law. It has nothing to do about your feelings about the person on trial. It has to do with the facts and did the person on trial break the law. Yes or no, black or white did he break the laws of that state, not the laws in any other state like Texas.

I would not like to send this man to prison. I would loose sleep over it. But let me say it again. If I was on that jury and the facts were presented to me as they are stated in the OP and I was not in Texas I would have to decide if this man committed a crime under the laws in the state where this happened.

I wish one of the guys here with the background in the law would chime in here and tell me where I am wrong.


Now to another point. There question about what exactly constitutes a case where shooting is justified. If someone hikes across my land that is trespass. Is that a justifiable shooting offense? If I ask them to leave and they refuse, that become criminal trespass in this state. Is that a justifiable shooting offense?

II drop my wallet wit twenty bucks in it and someone see me do it, grabs mt wallet and runs away. Is that a justifiable shooting offense? How about someone running over my dog or my llama? Or someone get pissed at me because I took the last can of Bush's Baked Beans off the shelf at the grocery and he pushes me down and grabs my can of beans. Is that a justifiable shooting offense?

Where exactly does an offense become so grievous that killing is justified.
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#5573983 - 08/31/11 08:16 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
high_country_ Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 4144
Loc: E. WA / N. ID
scott, this appears to be a classic eastern wa vs western washington difference of views. the man did not kill a guy grabbing the last can of beans. if he were 30 miles deep in the passayten wilderness and it was his last can of beans, which meant he would die without the beans, killing him would be justified to me. if a guy can kill both pilots of an airplane with a razorblade, I would be dang concerned with a guy swinging scissors. face it.....bad guy changed the dynamics of both parties day, it just worked out a whole lot worse for him. good riddens. IMO, we should send him the bg's welfare checks for his trouble.
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I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.

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#5574018 - 08/31/11 08:24 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Scott F
I would not like to send this man to prison. I would loose sleep over it. But let me say it again. If I was on that jury and the facts were presented to me as they are stated in the OP and I was not in Texas I would have to decide if this man committed a crime under the laws in the state where this happened.

I wish one of the guys here with the background in the law would chime in here and tell me where I am wrong.
I already have, Scott. The job of the juror is more to bring about justice than it is to enforce the literal law. That's part of why we have a jury system, rather than an inquisitorial one, as they do in other nations. A professional judge is all you need to determine if the laws were broken. A panel of the defendant's peers, however, represent the people, not the state, and therefore are empowered to consider whether or not, in the case before them, a rigid application of the law would bring about justice or injustice, and find accordingly.

Why do you think a jury isn't simply instructed to vote yes or no on a set of facts proposed to them by the judge, following which said judge determines if the law was violated? That's not how it's done. A jury not only determines what the facts were, but is also empowered to determine guilt or non-guilt, i.e., a person could be found to have violated a law, literally interpreted, yet still be acquitted, i.e., determined not guilty. Were it otherwise, a jury would only be asked to report to the judge what facts it has found to have occurred. As it is, it's asked only to determine guilt or non-guilt.

In our legal tradition, however, this only works in one direction, i.e., in the direction of acquittal, not conviction. Should a jury decide to disregard the law in their conviction of a defendant, a judge is empowered to acquit notwithstanding a jury's verdict if he determines that the facts don't actually support the conviction.

This is a double safety valve, built into our legal tradition, in favor of the accused..
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#5574048 - 08/31/11 08:32 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
hotdog Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 315
Loc: Kentucky

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#5574051 - 08/31/11 08:33 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: high_country_]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
I can agree with most of your statements. The only part I see as a problem lays here.

Quote:
Once he took off with the money in the parking lot, reports indicate Canul, who has a concealed weapon permit, pulled out a gun and allegedly shot Abbot in the head. Abbot died at the Logan County Medical Center.


As I see it the threat was over. If Canul had drawn and killed Abbot when they were face to face I think he would have been good under the law in West Virginia. He probably would be facing charges in Washington.

Quote:
Canul claims he was acting in self defense, but Bennett says there are clear legal definitions for that.

"If and when it ever gets to a grand jury, the judge would instruct them specifically on the law of self defense in this state." He says he has seen cases like this one before now.

"The facts are always somewhat different but, in many respects, quite similar."

At this point, Canul is facing murder charges.


Isn't this just about the way I stated it. Under the laws of West Virginia self defense is defined. It appears Canul broke those laws and the judge will instruct the jury on those laws. That is how the jury will have to decide this case.

I am really glad I will not be in that jury box. I disagree with the laws here in Washington. I think having to run and hide before being able to defend yourself from an attacker is out and out stupid. But those are the laws here. If I break them then I will have to face the consequences.
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#5574096 - 08/31/11 08:43 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
high_country_ Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 4144
Loc: E. WA / N. ID
perhaps the shooter lost a game of scissor throwing, when his opponent stuck his scissors in a stump at 50 paces after a spinning around from a dead run.

suddenly it sounds justifiable.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.

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#5574112 - 08/31/11 08:46 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
From the above link.
Quote:
He tells him 'You better back up. You better back up,' and the guy don't back up until he gets his wallet out. Then when he gets his wallet out and he sees that gun, he takes off running. That's when Jesse shot him, as soon as he took off, Rodney Sells, a witness, said.

That's where the debate of self defense comes into play. Canul is facing murder charges because Abbott was already running away when he was shot. However, Canuls supporters disagree.




Quote:
WSAZ.com looked into the fine line between self defense and murder.

We found there is a line, but how fine it is -- depends. It depends what the law says about deadly force.

It also comes down to common sense, and what the facts may be of any individual case.

We went to the experts and the law books and asked 30-year NRA certified pistol instructor Chuck Yeager to demonstrate with WSAZ.com's Randy Yohe what he says all gun safety instructors teach -- that you only use deadly force if you are forced.

I'd give you my wallet. It's in my pocket. Don't stab me," Yeager said. "Then, I would try to back up and put my hands in the air. And if you turn around and run away, I don't care. I can replace my wallet. Even though you're a criminal, your life is worth more than a wallet."

Cabell County Prosecutor Chris Chiles says there are two general rules in what's self defense and what's a criminal act.

Who was the primary aggressor?" Chiles said. "And, was it reasonable for the person who acted to be in fear of death or serious bodily injury?

A West Virginia law known as the Castle Doctrine says a person attacked in a public place is without a duty to retreat, if they are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm -- and can only be saved by the use of deadly force.


Better than Washington laws but no where near as good as Texas. I think this will cost Canul time.
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#5574121 - 08/31/11 08:48 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: high_country_]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: high_country_
perhaps the shooter lost a game of scissor throwing, when his opponent stuck his scissors in a stump at 50 paces after a spinning around from a dead run.

suddenly it sounds justifiable.


Perhaps but I doubt it will turn out well for Mr. Canul.
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#5574130 - 08/31/11 08:51 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Scott F

Perhaps but I doubt it will turn out well for Mr. Canul.
Oh, we're in perfect agreement on that.
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#5574141 - 08/31/11 08:55 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
NathanL Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 12742
Loc: MS/LA/TX
From reading these articles for years and years and seeing the outcome I think the biggest influence on your odds of getting charged with a crime is the district attorney instead of your state law. Sure it has a bearing, but I've seen some that would fall easily into the excessive force category that were allowed to walk and some that were in the good shoot category that were charged that may/may not have got off later.
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#5574148 - 08/31/11 08:57 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: NathanL]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
I cannot argue that one.

Edited to add:

I hope he walks. He was confronted with a violent man. In the heat of the occasion he made a decision. It was his decision alone and I was not standing in his shoes.


Edited by Scott F (08/31/11 08:59 AM)
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#5574155 - 08/31/11 08:59 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: cal74]
djs Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 17151
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: cal74
Originally Posted By: bea175
If i was on the Jury it would be not guilty.



Exactly


If more people committing violent crimes were shot/killed than the next guy might think twice about doing a similar thing.

Give the shooter a medal and a small reward as far as I'm concerned.


I don't believe the guys doing things like this think at all of the consequences (either by mental defect or ego). But, eliminating one might save a life later.

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#5574206 - 08/31/11 09:15 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 12739
Loc: Gone To Texas
Originally Posted By: Scott F


Where exactly does an offense become so grievous that killing is justified.


Scott, I'm not a lawyer, but I've studied the law and ethics of use of force and especially use of deadly force in depth and detail, primarily from a law enforcement perspective (i.e., use of force by police, against police, and against others being investigated by police).

First thing: at law, homicide is the killing of another person. If you have sufficient reason for killing another person, it is justifiable homicide, and it is not a criminal act. If you do not have sufficient reason, it is a crime. Everything hinges on justification.

Second thing: use of deadly force is only justified when the person using said force justifiably believes he is in danger of grave bodily harm, which means danger of being killed or being permanently injured by the offender.

Justifiable is the key word in this definition, and it is the pertinent element of the shooting we're discussing in this thread. In order for a homicide to be justified, the offender must have demonstrated 3 things: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

Ability means the offender has the ability to kill you or cause you grave bodily harm. He has a gun, an edged weapon, and the strength/size/apparent determination to use it; he's 7 feet tall and has a black belt; etc, etc, etc.

Opportunity means the offender is in a position to actually use his weapon on you. If a gun, within effective range of the weapon. If an edged weapon or bludgeon, within 7 yards or so. If he's got a broadsword but is on the opposite bank of a river and there isn't a bridge in sight, he doesn't have opportunity; if he's got a rifle, he's got opportunity.

Jeopardy means the offender has verbalized or otherwise demonstrated his intent to use the weapon against you right now. Pointing a gun at you is sufficient in most cases. Pointing a pair of scissors at you and saying,'Your wallet or your life' is sufficient. Pointing the scissors at you and saying, 'I might come looking for you with these scissors one of these days' does NOT constitute jeopardy.

In this case, the offender had turned away from the shooter and was apparently leaving the scene of the crime. He still has ability, but opportunity is equivocal and jeopardy is highly doubtful.

Given the facts as outlined in this thread, this is not a justifiable homicide. This man would be arrested in any jurisdiction in the United States, including Texas. There is nothing about this shooting that speaks to duty to retreat or "castle doctrine". I facts come out in the investigation or at trial that contradict the facts presented so far, he may be acquitted, but at this point I would predict he will be convicted of criminal homicide of some kind.
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#5574334 - 08/31/11 09:55 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: DocRocket]
Roundup Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Eastern Oregon
A lot depends on a jury.

There was a shooting in Portland, Oregon a few years ago. A small business in downtown Portland, I believe that it may have been in the Pearl district, was held up by an armed robber. The robber left and was pursued by a person from the business. The pursuer was armed with a .380 auto pistol and shot the fleeing robber. The robber died as a result of being shot. The DA's office let it go to a Grand Jury and they declined to indict, in effect saying it was a righteous shooting. I can't remember where it went from there, if a civil suit was filed,etc..

Shooting such as this, justified or not, may alter how criminals approach prospective victims. With more states enacting legal permits to carry, it could have a dampening effect on daylight, public robberies.

Probably be an improvement over a suggested course of action some years ago when it was suggested if a woman was facing being raped that she void her bladder and bowels....which seems to be a typical liberal reaction to facing a dangerous situation.
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#5574336 - 08/31/11 09:56 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: DocRocket]
Redneck Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 38270
Loc: TAXHELLWI. USA
Very well stated, Doc.. Kudos..
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#5574361 - 08/31/11 10:06 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
mathman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 20689
Quote:
In Washington this would not have been a good shooting unless the robber was equally or greater armed and the victim had retreated as far as he could go. It is not enough here to be confronted face to face with a robber who is armed. You as the victim must retreat and try to get away.



That is pretty freaking sad, law or not.

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#5574378 - 08/31/11 10:13 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mathman]
Redneck Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 38270
Loc: TAXHELLWI. USA
Originally Posted By: mathman
Quote:
In Washington this would not have been a good shooting unless the robber was equally or greater armed and the victim had retreated as far as he could go. It is not enough here to be confronted face to face with a robber who is armed. You as the victim must retreat and try to get away.



That is pretty freaking sad, law or not.

It's the same here in TAX HELL WISCONSIN..

Nice, eh?
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#5574380 - 08/31/11 10:13 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
HugAJackass Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 15357
Loc: AL, USA
In Alabama this may or may not be considered legal. The castle laws here state that protecting property (ie cash) is legal grounds for a shoot. The right to own and protect property is highly protected here.

That said, I don't think at that time, given the information posted, that I would have shot. Maybe I'm just a wuss, but for ME, killing a man isn't worth a handful of cash. I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

However, the difficult thing with a fleeing crook, is it CAN be difficult to know if the guy is actually fleeing, or if he is repositioning. Given that the article states he had a sharp object, I'd think he was fleeing. If he had a gun though, I would have shot in a heartbeat as I would have still felt threatened due to the fact that he COULD be repositioning. I wouldn't risk my life on a could be.
_________________________
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Turdlike, by default.

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#5574407 - 08/31/11 10:25 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Redneck]
mathman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 20689
A person shouldn't have to retreat or submit one little bit to protect their body or property, no matter where they are.

The proper response to "Hand it over or I'll kick your ass" should be the alignment of the sights on center mass.

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#5574425 - 08/31/11 10:33 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: CoalCracker]
StubbleDuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/18/06
Posts: 4539
Originally Posted By: CoalCracker
Reminds me of some of the best legal advice I ever read. If you ever need to defend yourself in any way, tell the authorities ONLY that you were the victim of a crime and feared for your life. Anything beyond that will be forthcoming AFTER you retain an attorney.

Even if the LEOs on scene appear to be "on your side", you never know how they really feel or how a potential prosecutor may view your story
.


EXCELLENT post!

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#5574457 - 08/31/11 10:44 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mathman]
Redneck Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 38270
Loc: TAXHELLWI. USA
Originally Posted By: mathman
A person shouldn't have to retreat or submit one little bit to protect their body or property, no matter where they are..
No argument from me.. But it's the stupid-azzed law in this stupid-azzed state.. mad

I know they're working on a 'castle-doctrine' bill but it's not here yet..
_________________________

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Ex - USN(TM3-SS) USS Razorback SS-394 '68-'69

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#5574465 - 08/31/11 10:46 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mathman]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: mathman
A person shouldn't have to retreat or submit one little bit to protect their body or property, no matter where they are.

The proper response to "Hand it over or I'll kick your ass" should be the alignment of the sights on center mass.


Agreed. But we do not know the situation. Perhaps he did not have time. Perhaps he was not on the alert and the first he knew anything was wrong he was looking at getting his throat slashed. I cannot second guess this as I was not in his shoes.

It is what I would have tried to do but again I was not there and I may well have found myself in the same situation.

And I agree a person should not have to run and try to hide before making the choice to defend himself. What if it were my wife and I? What if I was armed and she was not? Does the state of Washington think I should run and hide and let the bad guys do whatever they wish with her? Then is it OK to defend myself after she id dead and the have me cornered? Sounds like a pretty stupid law to me but this is Washington and that is the way the laws read.

These are decision each of have to make before we carry. It is wise to know the laws in your state and any other states you carry. Then make your own decisions as to how you would react.

BTW. I not case where I have to run and let the bad guys have my wife, it just ain't going to happen. I would rather face prison and execution as a murder that live with letting them have my wife. But that is a decision I have already made.
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#5574470 - 08/31/11 10:47 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: HugAJackass]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
[quote=HugAJackass
That said, I don't think at that time, given the information posted, that I would have shot. Maybe I'm just a wuss, but for ME, killing a man isn't worth a handful of cash. I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

However, the difficult thing with a fleeing crook, is it CAN be difficult to know if the guy is actually fleeing, or if he is repositioning. Given that the article states he had a sharp object, I'd think he was fleeing. If he had a gun though, I would have shot in a heartbeat as I would have still felt threatened due to the fact that he COULD be repositioning. I wouldn't risk my life on a could be. [/quote]

Exactly how I feel.
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#5574471 - 08/31/11 10:48 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Redneck]
toltecgriz Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/09/06
Posts: 17198
I'm sure I would be too scared for my life to turn my back and retreat.
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#5574477 - 08/31/11 10:50 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: toltecgriz]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: toltecgriz
I'm sure I would be too scared for my life to turn my back and retreat.


Yep. The law is stupid. It was written by idiots who have never had to defend themselves and believe all criminals are really good guys on the inside.
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#5574480 - 08/31/11 10:51 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Redneck]
derby_dude Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/21/06
Posts: 33262
Loc: Montana, Lewis and Clark Count...
I haven't read all the posts so I might have missed something.

Here's my opinion from Montana.

If murder is the only charge and it's murder or nothing, using jury nullification, it's not guilty based on what's known.

If it's a manslaughter charge, 2nd degree, based on the known information it would be guilty.

I suspect the charge will be manslaughter in the 2nd degree because that should a easy charge to get a conviction on. I doubt it will be a murder charge but hey, it's the liberal gun hating East coast so who knows.
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#5574695 - 08/31/11 12:11 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: derby_dude]
1234567 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4320
What about the robber leaving the scene of a crime? Leaving the scene of a crime is illegal, isn't it?

Would that not justify the shooting? The victum was only trying to prevent the robber from leaving the scene.

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#5574756 - 08/31/11 12:33 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 1234567]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: 1234567
What about the robber leaving the scene of a crime? Leaving the scene of a crime is illegal, isn't it?

Would that not justify the shooting? The victum was only trying to prevent the robber from leaving the scene.
For some reason, police officers are actually considered privileged to shoot those fleeing arrest if 1) they observed them commit a felony, and 2) they have reason to believe they pose a high degree of danger to society. I'd say this case qualifies. Running away was, in essence, fleeing arrest.

Now for the question why cops are in any way distinguished from anyone else in terms of privileged lethal force. There's no logic to it. Originally, we were all "the police," i.e., we all had the common law right to maintain the piece, and defend life and property. Then people got too busy to do it, and decided to either elect or hire someone to do it for them. The people then extended to these officials the full degree of their own common law powers to maintain the piece and defend life and property, i.e., police can have no greater authority than we all possess in these regards. Where did the police derive any greater degree of power than that possessed by the folks who empowered them to do their policing for them?
_________________________
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#5574775 - 08/31/11 12:41 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 1234567]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: 1234567
What about the robber leaving the scene of a crime? Leaving the scene of a crime is illegal, isn't it?

Would that not justify the shooting? The victum was only trying to prevent the robber from leaving the scene.


A reach at best and a long one at that. In this case the robber did not commit a capitol crime. Armed robbery will not get you a death sentence in any state as far as I know.

Face to face with an armed robber and you have a chance. In this state you would have to have pretty convincing proof your life was in emanate danger. In other words the famous dog poop on a stick would not do it. A knife or any other kind of deadly weapon might do it. In this state a fleeing armed robber would get you a long stay away from home.
_________________________
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#5574925 - 08/31/11 01:37 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: derby_dude]
Semper_Fi57 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/18/05
Posts: 262
Loc: Fredericksburg, TX
Gentlemen,
As I see it, this is what comes from allowing a bunch of scabby-kneed, ambulance-chasing lawyers to make the laws. Like the old Ranger said, "Puttin' a lawyer in the legislature is akin to havin' a fox guard your chickens". Jim

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#5574964 - 08/31/11 01:51 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Semper_Fi57]
nighthawk Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 7427
Loc: NE South Dakota
Well, if you put the Supreme Court in that category. See Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985).

Fleeing felon statutes have pretty much been repealed so as a civilian you're looking at making out a case for justifiable homicide if you're a good shot. Imminent danger of death or severe bodily injury and all that. The old rule applies: Don't shoot anybody unless you're left with no choice. Even if justified it'll likely mess with your head.

Should add that Castle Doctrine is a legislative definition of justifiable homicide. Adds no more than that.


Edited by nighthawk (08/31/11 01:54 PM)

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#5575014 - 08/31/11 02:05 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
hunter1960 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 10/21/03
Posts: 10863
Loc: Middle Tennessee
Originally Posted By: The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted By: 1234567
What about the robber leaving the scene of a crime? Leaving the scene of a crime is illegal, isn't it?

Would that not justify the shooting? The victum was only trying to prevent the robber from leaving the scene.
For some reason, police officers are actually considered privileged to shoot those fleeing arrest if 1) they observed them commit a felony, and 2) they have reason to believe they pose a high degree of danger to society. I'd say this case qualifies. Running away was, in essence, fleeing arrest.

Now for the question why cops are in any way distinguished from anyone else in terms of privileged lethal force. There's no logic to it. Originally, we were all "the police," i.e., we all had the common law right to maintain the piece, and defend life and property. Then people got too busy to do it, and decided to either elect or hire someone to do it for them. The people then extended to these officials the full degree of their own common law powers to maintain the piece and defend life and property, i.e., police can have no greater authority than we all possess in these regards. Where did the police derive any greater degree of power than that possessed by the folks who empowered them to do their policing for them?


It pisses you off doesn't it? That LE can do this under certain circumstances as those within Garner-vs-TN. This doesn't occur outside of the most severe and limited circumstances.

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#5575016 - 08/31/11 02:06 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Semper_Fi57]
TexasRick Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 3046
Loc: East Texas
A few points.....

First, in Texas (and yes I know our laws are somewhat unique) the defense of property IS justification for use of deadly force. Deadly force is also justified to prevent or to prevent a felon from fleeing following such things as theft, robbery, assault and even "criminal mischief" under certain circumstances. therefor in Texas this would likely be a justified shooting (particularly if it took place "in the night time"....and no, it makes no difference if it is a rural or urban setting according to the law).

Some have said the a handful of cash isn't reason enough to take a life. For me, a used beer can is reason enough because it's MY beer can.....not yours. Steal from me and pay the price if I know about it and can react.

Second, the idea that a jury "has" to convict because of the way a law is written is bullshit. No one HAS to do anything and there is a legal idea (which lawyers and judges HATE for jurors to be aware of) called Jury Nulification It matters not what THE LAW says....if a juror feels it is not justice.....he can and should "nulify" the law by voting not guilty. If you DON"T do so....in my opinion, you are guily of being an assesory after the fact and just as guilty as the original criminal.

The final point that amazes me is that the same people here who say that the would "have" to vote guilty....even though they also say they think the man was justified.....are mostly the same folks who loudly proclaim that they'd never give up their guns if a law were passed saying they must.

Does this mean that you also believe that a person has the right to ignor any law they choose because they don't agree with it....but MUST follow other laws? You NEVER "have" to convict when on a jury....grow a set of balls and stand up for what's right or blindly follow whatever instructions THE LAW decides you should.....you can't have it both ways.

Maybe I'm a bit different, but I was taught a truth by my father and grandfather....and have taught my children the same thing,

"Never let the LAW stand in the way of what's right and wrong!"
_________________________
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know

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#5575109 - 08/31/11 02:44 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
AcesNeights Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 5137
Loc: Washington
Scott---Washington self defense laws are not that bad.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.










RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide By other person When justifiable.


*** CHANGE IN 2011 *** (SEE 5045.SL) ***

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.


[1975 1st ex.s. c 260 9A.16.050.]
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#5575118 - 08/31/11 02:47 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
Dave_in_WV Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/12/03
Posts: 7419
Loc: West Virginia
Originally Posted By: bea175
This happened in West Virginia by the name i would bet the robber was a Illegal


The news reports he's a citizen. Illegals can't get a permit. Several Logan residents have come out in support of Jesus. Two witness tell it just like Jesus. Meth heads hanging around WalMarts waiting for someone to rob are starting to be a problem. David Abbot is now a good citizen after rehab.
_________________________
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#5575632 - 08/31/11 05:57 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: TexasRick]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: TexasRick
A few points.....

First, in Texas (and yes I know our laws are somewhat unique) the defense of property IS justification for use of deadly force. Deadly force is also justified to prevent or to prevent a felon from fleeing following such things as theft, robbery, assault and even "criminal mischief" under certain circumstances. therefor in Texas this would likely be a justified shooting (particularly if it took place "in the night time"....and no, it makes no difference if it is a rural or urban setting according to the law).

Some have said the a handful of cash isn't reason enough to take a life. For me, a used beer can is reason enough because it's MY beer can.....not yours. Steal from me and pay the price if I know about it and can react.

Second, the idea that a jury "has" to convict because of the way a law is written is bullshit. No one HAS to do anything and there is a legal idea (which lawyers and judges HATE for jurors to be aware of) called Jury Nulification It matters not what THE LAW says....if a juror feels it is not justice.....he can and should "nulify" the law by voting not guilty. If you DON"T do so....in my opinion, you are guily of being an assesory after the fact and just as guilty as the original criminal.

The final point that amazes me is that the same people here who say that the would "have" to vote guilty....even though they also say they think the man was justified.....are mostly the same folks who loudly proclaim that they'd never give up their guns if a law were passed saying they must.

Does this mean that you also believe that a person has the right to ignor any law they choose because they don't agree with it....but MUST follow other laws? You NEVER "have" to convict when on a jury....grow a set of balls and stand up for what's right or blindly follow whatever instructions THE LAW decides you should.....you can't have it both ways.

Maybe I'm a bit different, but I was taught a truth by my father and grandfather....and have taught my children the same thing,

"Never let the LAW stand in the way of what's right and wrong!"
I agree on all points.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5575742 - 08/31/11 06:34 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Penguin Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5561
Loc: The great midwest
Surprising how many people we have on this site falling all over themselves to lend moral support to a back shooter. God damn, even in the bloodthirstiest of times in this nation we never held up this kind of behavior as something which should be emulated or even tolerated. In most cases it was deemed an act of cowardice or viciousness regardless of what brought the situation to a head.

Some times I have to believe that people really like to put on an act or just act out because it is the net and it is anonymous.

Will
_________________________
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.

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#5575853 - 08/31/11 07:04 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Surprising how many people we have on this site falling all over themselves to lend moral support to a back shooter. God damn, even in the bloodthirstiest of times in this nation we never held up this kind of behavior as something which should be emulated or even tolerated. In most cases it was deemed an act of cowardice or viciousness regardless of what brought the situation to a head.

Some times I have to believe that people really like to put on an act or just act out because it is the net and it is anonymous.

Will
I think Texas has it right. There should be no right that trumps that of property, I can't think of another right that would be worth a damn without the right of property. If a jury can be persuaded that, under the circumstances, nothing short of lethal force would have prevented someone from stealing (and the felonious larceny was still in its hot phase, e.g., the mugger just pulled the knife away from your throat and darted off with your wallet and wedding band), I say drawing your weapon and shooting is OK with me. Especially if the stealing was done with the credible threat of imminent lethal force to start with. What's OK with the law, however, is an entirely different discussion, and varies from state to state. It's the law that I abide by, not my opinion on what the law should be.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5575866 - 08/31/11 07:07 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
JBGQUICK Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 1919
And with no witness you don't know if he committed murder and pretended theft.

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#5575875 - 08/31/11 07:09 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: JBGQUICK]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: JBGQUICK
And with no witness you don't know if he committed murder and pretended theft.

That would be for a jury to decide, as always.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5575893 - 08/31/11 07:13 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 12970
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Surprising how many people we have on this site falling all over themselves to lend moral support to a back shooter. God damn, even in the bloodthirstiest of times in this nation we never held up this kind of behavior as something which should be emulated or even tolerated. In most cases it was deemed an act of cowardice or viciousness regardless of what brought the situation to a head.

Some times I have to believe that people really like to put on an act or just act out because it is the net and it is anonymous.

Will


And on exactly what code of principals does your atheist a$$ arrive at such "moralizing"? Roy Rogers movies?

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#5575910 - 08/31/11 07:17 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Take_a_knee]
JBGQUICK Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 1919
No, it is the reason such restrictions exist. And a court will decide in the case listed here, so I am uncertain what your distinction is.

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#5575917 - 08/31/11 07:18 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 12739
Loc: Gone To Texas
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Surprising how many people we have on this site falling all over themselves to lend moral support to a back shooter.


I admit I'm only somewhat surprised. Makes me feel like the 15 minutes I spent typing my post earlier today outlining the legal definitions of what constitutes justifiable homicide was a total waste of time.
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#5575940 - 08/31/11 07:25 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Take_a_knee]
Penguin Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5561
Loc: The great midwest
Number 1: I am not an atheist. Never was and never will be.

Number 2: Although I do not claim the title of christian now (because intellectual honesty requires me to disavow some of the beliefs crucial to the faith) I was raised in a strong Southern Baptist church. Years and years of bible study, literalist bible preaching, and the like. And there is no way this side of hell itself that this shooting could be justified under the brand of Christianity that I grew up with.

Not a prayer. Not one.

As a MOF I have attended and studied 7th Day Adventist, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc and I have yet to find one single one where this kind of thing would be held up as Godly or Christian. Hell, I studied Buddhism and, out of curiosity, Judaism and Islam and even they would not support this kind of murder.

What church, exactly, are you so sure would back this thing? Church, hell I'd like to know a single religion that does. Even Islam only condones the removal of an arm for theft!

I'm sorry but shooting a mentally disturbed individual in the back of the head as he was fleeing a just completed robbery is just about as un-Christlike as I can imagine. The jesus I studied as a kid would have ran him down and gave him his coat to go with the billfold!

I'm not preaching, as I stated I don't claim the title of Christian. But I would like you to give me the name of the denomination that teaches this as Godly behavior.

I dare you.

Will
_________________________
Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.

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#5575958 - 08/31/11 07:29 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 12739
Loc: Gone To Texas
Will, it's got nothing to do with Christianity or faith or any other suchlike. The law is pretty damn clear on this stuff, and any FOOL who won't take the time to learn the law of use of deadly force and transgresses said law deserves what his ignorant ass gets.
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#5575959 - 08/31/11 07:29 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: DocRocket]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
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Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: DocRocket
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Surprising how many people we have on this site falling all over themselves to lend moral support to a back shooter.


I admit I'm only somewhat surprised. Makes me feel like the 15 minutes I spent typing my post earlier today outlining the legal definitions of what constitutes justifiable homicide was a total waste of time.
Oh, I understand perfectly what you wrote. I've written it out precisely that way before myself in answer to that question. I wasn't addressing that. I was addressing what I believe the law should be. From what others have said, that is in fact what the law is currently in Texas, under certain circumstances. I believe that I correctly place a high value on the right of property.
_________________________
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#5575995 - 08/31/11 07:35 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: DocRocket]
Penguin Offline
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Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5561
Loc: The great midwest
Sorry Doc you got caught in the crossfire there. :p

I was responding to Take a Knee who for some reason, known only to himself, was inferring that I was an atheist for failing to support the shooter in this case. Far as I am concerned the shooter has to be either a hothead, or a coward, or panicky, or just not wired right. Something is not right there.

Sad event all the way around. He may or may not get convicted of murder, that is for the courts to decide. But whether he is or not this is not the kind of behavior that one should hold us as a model for responsible gun ownership. Sorry, whether this guy is convicted or not this is the kind of thing that turns the average stomach.

Will
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#5576012 - 08/31/11 07:39 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
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Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Number 1: I am not an atheist. Never was and never will be.

Number 2: Although I do not claim the title of christian now (because intellectual honesty requires me to disavow some of the beliefs crucial to the faith) I was raised in a strong Southern Baptist church. Years and years of bible study, literalist bible preaching, and the like. And there is no way this side of hell itself that this shooting could be justified under the brand of Christianity that I grew up with.

Not a prayer. Not one.

As a MOF I have attended and studied 7th Day Adventist, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc and I have yet to find one single one where this kind of thing would be held up as Godly or Christian. Hell, I studied Buddhism and, out of curiosity, Judaism and Islam and even they would not support this kind of murder.

What church, exactly, are you so sure would back this thing? Church, hell I'd like to know a single religion that does. Even Islam only condones the removal of an arm for theft!

I'm sorry but shooting a mentally disturbed individual in the back of the head as he was fleeing a just completed robbery is just about as un-Christlike as I can imagine. The jesus I studied as a kid would have ran him down and gave him his coat to go with the billfold!

I'm not preaching, as I stated I don't claim the title of Christian. But I would like you to give me the name of the denomination that teaches this as Godly behavior.

I dare you.

Will
Keep in mind that there's a difference between stopping a crime in progress and meeting out punishment. No one is privileged to meet out punishment for a crime until a conviction by a jury. Stopping a crime is a distinct matter. Where nothing short of lethal force will stop a felonious larceny in progress, I think the law should allow it.

I doubt Jesus would have problem one with dispatching a thief in the act if that appeared to be the only way to stop him and remain safe at the same time. Stopping a crime by whatever means necessary has nothing whatever to do with a willingness to forgive a repenting criminal.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5576023 - 08/31/11 07:41 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
mark shubert Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 3713
Loc: Las Vegas NM
Protection of self AND PROPERTY should rule in the courts. Until such time - crime pays!!
Mark

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#5576061 - 08/31/11 07:49 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mark shubert]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 12739
Loc: Gone To Texas
Shuttin' up here. Will not get into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.


Edited by DocRocket (08/31/11 07:51 PM)
Edit Reason: pearls before swine
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#5576065 - 08/31/11 07:50 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mark shubert]
JBGQUICK Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/15/10
Posts: 1919
the Bible is pretty clear on that subject.

Thou shalt not kill.

There are verses listing exemptions, like shooting a thief in your home and other self defense issues, but I haven't seem anything that seems to fit this situation.

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#5576073 - 08/31/11 07:52 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Penguin Offline
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Posts: 5561
Loc: The great midwest
Hawk I hate to say it but I cannot see how you can hold those beliefs and call yourself a Christian. Seriously. It took me about 1 minute flat to go over to my library, pull out a concordance and bible, and find unequivocal statements by Jesus himself on this subject:

Gospel of Luke

6:29 - "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also, and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.

6:30 - "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours do not demand it back."

Do not demand it back. Do not demand it back. Let alone pull a pistol and discharge it into the back of his head as he tries to flee the scene.

As I stated I no longer claim the title of Christian. And the brand of Christianity I grew up in was hard boiled, conservative as hell, and literalist to a fault. And even then I never knew a single preacher who would have held this up as Jesus like behavior.

Sorry but from my vantage point this in entirely inconsistent with any brand of Christianity I have yet to encounter.

Will
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Smellin' a lot of 'if' coming off this plan.

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#5576091 - 08/31/11 07:57 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 12739
Loc: Gone To Texas
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Sorry Doc you got caught in the crossfire there. :p

Will


Naw, I didn't get caught in much. I was just hunkerin' down behind the horse-trough pointin' out to the town drunk beside me that your opponent in this fracas seems to have been the kind of fool who brings a knife to a gunfight...
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#5576127 - 08/31/11 08:05 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: TexasRick]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: TexasRick


The final point that amazes me is that the same people here who say that the would "have" to vote guilty....even though they also say they think the man was justified.....are mostly the same folks who loudly proclaim that they'd never give up their guns if a law were passed saying they must.

Does this mean that you also believe that a person has the right to ignor any law they choose because they don't agree with it....but MUST follow other laws? You NEVER "have" to convict when on a jury....grow a set of balls and stand up for what's right or blindly follow whatever instructions THE LAW decides you should.....you can't have it both ways.

Maybe I'm a bit different, but I was taught a truth by my father and grandfather....and have taught my children the same thing,

"Never let the LAW stand in the way of what's right and wrong!"


Maybe in Texas but not were I live. Last jury I was on the instructions were to determine if the defendant broke the law or not. There was NO allowance for our feeling about the law of if the defendant was justified or not.

If there was a choice to make that decision then I would think the defense attorney would have made a comment in his closing or appealed the decision. Neither happened.

Again, if what was stated in the original article is true than this man broke the law. The DA may chose not to bring it before the grand jury and the grand jury may not indite but if this went to trial where I live he would be guilty.

I am not sure about your point about giving up my guns. The Constitution give me the right to own guns under the Second amendment. Any state law would not supersede the second.

If it came down to a decision, I would then have to make a decision to follow the law or not. If charged a jury would have to decide if I was guilty or not.

As for unjust laws we have the obligation to work within the system to change such laws. Ignoring laws we don't like seems a poor option to me.
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#5576140 - 08/31/11 08:09 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
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Originally Posted By: Penguin

As I stated I no longer claim the title of Christian. And the brand of Christianity I grew up in was hard boiled, conservative as hell, and literalist to a fault. And even then I never knew a single preacher who would have held this up as Jesus like behavior.

Will


Take a vacation and come stay at my place Will. I will show you what you are looking for.
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#5576155 - 08/31/11 08:14 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: AcesNeights]
Scott F Offline
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Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
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Originally Posted By: AcesNeights
Scott---Washington self defense laws are not that bad.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.










RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide By other person When justifiable.


*** CHANGE IN 2011 *** (SEE 5045.SL) ***

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.


[1975 1st ex.s. c 260 9A.16.050.]


Thanks for posting. It was my understanding Washington requires retreat before using deadly force.
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#5576166 - 08/31/11 08:17 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 15011
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
. I was addressing what I believe the law should be. From what others have said, that is in fact what the law is currently in Texas, under certain circumstances. I believe that I correctly place a high value on the right of property.


A few years ago a local college teacher ws trying to brain wash his students. He asked, "When is a TV worth a human life?"

Steve raised his hand and was called on. "When it's my TV."

That is my fealing exactly.
_________________________
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter

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#5576190 - 08/31/11 08:20 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
oldtimer303 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/15/08
Posts: 3043
Loc: missouri
Originally Posted By: Scott F
From the above link.

Better than Washington laws but no where near as good as Texas. I think this will cost Canul time.


whistle He will be out in time to vote Obama 2012. smile GW

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#5576195 - 08/31/11 08:22 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
mathman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 20689
A perp should ask himself:

"Is a getting a TV worth my life?"

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#5576206 - 08/31/11 08:25 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mathman]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
All men should ask themselves, "Why in the flying hell would I want a TV anyway!" grin

My life is a lot better since the day we tossed the TV. In my opinion any man stealing your TV has done you and your family a great service.
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Please excuse typing errors. Fat old arthritic fingres and fart smones makes it hard.



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#5576211 - 08/31/11 08:26 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: JBGQUICK]
Ringman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 15011
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
the Bible is pretty clear on that subject.

Thou shalt not kill.

There are verses listing exemptions, like shooting a thief in your home and other self defense issues, but I haven't seem anything that seems to fit this situation.


You are presenting what I would consider a contradiction. I have never read where a Bible student is allowed to shoot a thief.

I have read in Exdus 20:13, "'You shall not murder.'" The reason for the double quotations is because The Passage quotes God. God also went on to instruct if a man or an animal kills someone they are to be killed. This is not contradictory at all. God's Word also teaches if someone is robbing you and you kill them, you are justified. If you don't do anything till the next day and kill them, you are then a murderer.
_________________________
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter

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#5576213 - 08/31/11 08:26 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
mathman Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 20689
That's a different conversation. grin

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#5576224 - 08/31/11 08:28 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: mathman]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
grin


Now if you said my computer.... wink
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#5576699 - 09/01/11 04:34 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: JBGQUICK]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: JBGQUICK
the Bible is pretty clear on that subject.

Thou shalt not kill.

There are verses listing exemptions, like shooting a thief in your home and other self defense issues, but I haven't seem anything that seems to fit this situation.

The correct translation is "Thou shalt not murder."
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5576706 - 09/01/11 04:39 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Penguin
Hawk I hate to say it but I cannot see how you can hold those beliefs and call yourself a Christian. Seriously. It took me about 1 minute flat to go over to my library, pull out a concordance and bible, and find unequivocal statements by Jesus himself on this subject:

Gospel of Luke

6:29 - "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also, and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either.

6:30 - "Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours do not demand it back."

Do not demand it back. Do not demand it back. Let alone pull a pistol and discharge it into the back of his head as he tries to flee the scene.

As I stated I no longer claim the title of Christian. And the brand of Christianity I grew up in was hard boiled, conservative as hell, and literalist to a fault. And even then I never knew a single preacher who would have held this up as Jesus like behavior.

Sorry but from my vantage point this in entirely inconsistent with any brand of Christianity I have yet to encounter.

Will
Those are well known verses, Will, and are certainly the path to spiritual perfection (be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect), however falling short of spiritual perfection is not the equivalent of sin (which was your claim regarding the stopping of a thief by whatever means is necessary). Jesus also recommended, for example, that those seeking spiritual perfection should sell all that they have and give it to the poor, yet it is not a sin to refrain from this recommendation. Your task is to show us where in the Bible Jesus says that it is morally wrong to stop a thief by whatever means necessary.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5576721 - 09/01/11 04:51 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Scott F
The Constitution give me the right to own guns
Actually, the Constitution does not give you that right. You're born with that right, which becomes functional the moment you reach adulthood (as prior to that you're under the authority of your parents). The Constitution only acknowledges this, but an acknowledgment has no force in law. The portion of the Second Amendment that has force in law is where it states that this right shall not be infringed.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5576732 - 09/01/11 04:57 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Ringman
God's Word also teaches if someone is robbing you and you kill them, you are justified. If you don't do anything till the next day and kill them, you are then a murderer.
Which is why I stated that the act of lethal force, should it be necessary to stop the robber, needed to be within the heat of the act, precluding tracking him down later and shooting him. The latter would go beyond stopping the robber from completing his crime, entering into retribution after the fact.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5576736 - 09/01/11 05:01 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
jwp475 Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18319
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


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#5576745 - 09/01/11 05:04 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: jwp475]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict
Which is your duty should you conclude that the law applied literally to this defendant would result in injustice. This is jury nullification. The only reason defense attorneys don't make overt appeals for this to the jury is that they are barred by law from doing so. Those laws, however, are unlawful. Seems a contradiction, but it's not. An unlawful law is one which is in conflict with a higher law. Jury nullification goes to the very heart of the purpose of a jury in our legal system, and is therefore a higher order of law than any prohibiting references to it in court.
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5576760 - 09/01/11 05:11 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
jwp475 Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18319
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict
Which is your duty should you conclude that the law applied literally to this defendant would result in injustice. This is jury nullification. The only reason defense attorneys don't make overt appeals for this to the jury is that they are barred by law from doing so. Those laws, however, are unlawful. Seems a contradiction, but it's not. An unlawful law is one which is in conflict with a higher law. Jury nullification goes to the very heart of the purpose of a jury in our legal system, and is therefore a higher order of law than any prohibiting references to it in court.


Agreed
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


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#5577110 - 09/01/11 07:19 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: doubletap]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13628
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: doubletap
The guy was so distraught from being robbed that he was shaking and accidentally gripped the gun too tight and it inadvertently discharged. The fact that the robber was hit in the head was just pure bad luck.


Actually, something along those lines, maybe little more logical, would be a good defense. I'd simply get an expert to testify to something like PTSD, or extreme emotional disturbance, or heat of passion, to lessen the "intent" angle, and maybe get a manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, or even an acquittal. It was a bad shoot in most jurisdictions, but that doesn't mean the guy deserves a murder conviction or prison time. He was the victim of a robbery after all. All facts must be considered, but there's no way to call it a good shoot, at least not legally.
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#5577119 - 09/01/11 07:21 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: jwp475]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13628
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict


If asked, would you give this answer in voir dire? And you would be asked if you could listen to the facts and apply the law to those facts? If "Not me, I would not convict" would be your preconceived stance, you'd be lying under oath to fail to disclose that.
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#5577341 - 09/01/11 08:30 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Penguin Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/06/06
Posts: 5561
Loc: The great midwest
Originally Posted By: The_Real_Hawkeye
Those are well known verses, Will, and are certainly the path to spiritual perfection (be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect), however falling short of spiritual perfection is not the equivalent of sin (which was your claim regarding the stopping of a thief by whatever means is necessary). Jesus also recommended, for example, that those seeking spiritual perfection should sell all that they have and give it to the poor, yet it is not a sin to refrain from this recommendation. Your task is to show us where in the Bible Jesus says that it is morally wrong to stop a thief by whatever means necessary.



So all those really tough things that make a man look himself in the mirror with doubt aren't really necessary. Those are optional... extra credit for the advanced students? I guess you get a bigger crown of gold or a whiter robe in the ever after huh?

Bwahahahaha. :p

I want to know what denomination you belong to that teaches such spiritual quackery. In each and every denomination I have studied or been a part of in the past, to intentionally and willfully fall short of this example is sin. Period.

That man who came seeking guidance didn't ask "Good teacher what do I lack for spiritual perfection?" He came and asked "Good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Man that stuff ain't optional!

What denomination teaches this? I'm going to spend some time running this down. I want to know what Christian denomination teaches that shooting a man in the back of the head when he is fleeing the scene of a robbery is righteous. I want to know which one teaches that a man forfeits his life if he steals.

And another thing, this guy who committed this crime is apparently a mentally disturbed individual who was a danger to himself and to others. I am not taking his side of it. He needed to be arrested, locked up, and put away for what happened. If the gun could have been gotten to when he was threatening the robbery victim with a knife he could have been justifiably shot. But in this nation at this time there is a line that was crossed when he was no longer a danger and was fleeing the scene. We define that line as murder.

And I have another little piece of inside info for you: It ain't the courts and the lawyers that have made it so, it is a reflection of the will of the majority of the country. And it ain't some recent development either. This kind of thing would have gotten you lynched in many areas of the country 125 years ago. If not you would have at the least been branded as a coward and a menace.

Will
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#5577348 - 09/01/11 08:35 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 69725
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: Penguin
So all those really tough things that make a man look himself in the mirror with doubt aren't really necessary. Those are optional... extra credit for the advanced students? I guess you get a bigger crown of gold or a whiter robe in the ever after huh?

Bwahahahaha. :p
I'll answer that question after you've dispossessed yourself of everything you own and adopted an existence of strict asceticism. Let me know when that happens. wink
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#5577400 - 09/01/11 08:58 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
Monkey_Joe Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/22/07
Posts: 1822
It is not thievery that should have caused the forfeit, it was the threat with a deadly weapon.

He held the weapon and made the threat, I don't care if he was 5 or 500 hundred feet away. He might be closer tomorrow.

I'm not watching videos and know none of the history of the shooter/victim. I don't care, the robber made the threat with a deadly weapon.

As said, at the very least the victim in this crime has a very good argument for acquittal or lessor charges. I'd hope.
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Have a good day man. In honor of personal freedom and the open squirrel season, I think I'll go put a hole through dinner's head.

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#5577422 - 09/01/11 09:08 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Ringman]
duckster Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 3054
Appears to be a bad shoot. Danger was passed. If he had drawn and shot when initially threatened, might be a different deal.

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#5577605 - 09/01/11 10:10 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: bea175]
M7300SAUM Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/27/11
Posts: 661
Since I don't know all the facts of the case I will only make a general comment based on what I have read. I'll bet that each and every person on this board knows of laws that are unjust and should not exist. Just because a law is passed, it does not make the law correct. Civil disobediance is practiced all the time and I can't think of a better time to engage in it than when you are sitting on a jury. The jury is the average citizens last chance at real justice. It's way past time for the people to continue to tolerate laws that lean strongly to protect the bad guys. I can't sit here at the keyboard and judge this case but it seems clear to me that the robber started the chain of events and because of HIS actions, he is dead and the world is no doubt a better place. I won't pass legal judgement on the shooter but I really hope he is found not guilty by a panel of people that really care about true justice. If the DA feels pressure to prosecute the case, OK. That doesn't mean he has to do a very good job of it! Justice can be rendered in a variety of ways.

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#5577724 - 09/01/11 10:56 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Originally Posted By: Penguin


I want to know what denomination you belong to that teaches such spiritual quackery. In each and every denomination I have studied or been a part of in the past, to intentionally and willfully fall short of this example is sin. Period.

Will


Denominational differences are not in the Bible. One if the biggest problems for Christians today is the denominational issue. This is how I look at it. The Bible is the handbook. Read it until you get a beginning understanding. Look at historical references to try to understand the customs and living conditions in the time the book was written. Make up your own mind. Prayer help, in fact it is key in finding understanding.

What this hot shot big named preacher has to say on a subject vs what that hot shot big named preacher has to say does not interest me at all. The bigger their hair and the louder the show the more I tune them out. The ones who arrive in their hundred million dollar building in a limousine I tune out before they can open their mouths.

The whole denominational thing makes me ill and usually just served to wreck havoc in God's plans. Scisims and isims are counterproductive to God's work.

Put all mans teachings out of your mind and pay attention to what God has to say, His Spirit will lead you. Then find a teacher wise in God's word and ask him your questions.
_________________________
Please excuse typing errors. Fat old arthritic fingres and fart smones makes it hard.



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#5577730 - 09/01/11 10:57 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
Scott F Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/28/00
Posts: 30325
Loc: Missing In Action
Let the flames begin! I can handle flames fro man. I am secure in my relationship with God and that is all that is important. grin
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Please excuse typing errors. Fat old arthritic fingres and fart smones makes it hard.



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#5579096 - 09/01/11 06:41 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: .280Rem]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13628
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: .280Rem
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict


If asked, would you give this answer in voir dire? And you would be asked if you could listen to the facts and apply the law to those facts? If "Not me, I would not convict" would be your preconceived stance, you'd be lying under oath to fail to disclose that.


Question is open to any that say they wouldn't convict...would you be truthful under oath?
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#5579164 - 09/01/11 07:03 PM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
AcesNeights Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/29/08
Posts: 5137
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: Penguin
..... I want to know what Christian denomination teaches that shooting a man in the back of the head when he is fleeing the scene of a robbery is righteous. I want to know which one teaches that a man forfeits his life if he steals.


Who said the shooter was a "Christian"?

And if he wasn't, does that make the shoot good?
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#5579838 - 09/02/11 02:19 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Scott F]
mrgrowler1953 Offline
New Member

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Western Washington, USA
If a man is protecting his house, his family or his property and had to shoot someone and I was on the Jury he would walk.
_________________________
God made woman beautiful and foolish; beautiful, that man will love her; and foolish, that she will love him

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#5579954 - 09/02/11 04:56 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Cheesy]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 33085
Loc: Four States
Originally Posted By: Cheesy
At least he won't be robbing anybody anymore.

Put me on the jury.
Me too. A resounding "not guilty".
_________________________
I like my guns just like Obama likes his immigrants...undocumented.

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#5579955 - 09/02/11 04:58 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: EthanEdwards]
WV_Airedale Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 422
Loc: WV

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#5579958 - 09/02/11 05:00 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Penguin]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 33085
Loc: Four States
Originally Posted By: Penguin
I'm assuming this is West Virginia based on the names of the towns. If so then, yes, he is guilty of murder. You cannot run someone down from behind after a robbery and shoot them in the head. It isn't, and shouldn't be, legal.

I'm all for self defense but you have to actually be defending yourself in order to be within the law.

Will

Who said there is was any running involved. I don't think running should be against the law anyway. The robber ran. You got to run faster than 1300 fps though.
_________________________
I like my guns just like Obama likes his immigrants...undocumented.

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#5579976 - 09/02/11 05:08 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: EthanEdwards]
Redneck Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 38270
Loc: TAXHELLWI. USA
Originally Posted By: ColeYounger
Who said there is was any running involved. I don't think running should be against the law anyway. The robber ran. You got to run faster than 1300 fps though.
Again, from the original article:

"Once he took off with the money in the parking lot, reports indicate Canul, who has a concealed weapon permit, pulled out a gun and allegedly shot Abbot in the head. Abbot died at the Logan County Medical Center."

When it's reported that 'he took off', that means he's runnin'...
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#5580294 - 09/02/11 07:26 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: Redneck]
high_country_ Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/22/07
Posts: 4144
Loc: E. WA / N. ID
lest we not forget the shooter was the victim.
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Originally Posted By: BrentD

I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.

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#5580340 - 09/02/11 07:40 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: 2legit2quit]
RMulhern Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/17/10
Posts: 4129
Loc: Northeast Louisiana
"He robbed me with a weapon and I feared for my life"!

All that needed to be stated by the shooter!!
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Fifty-two percent of the electorate today are like horses! All they have to do is EAT, BREED, CRAP, AND SWAT FLIES!!

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#5580441 - 09/02/11 08:11 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: .280Rem]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13628
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: .280Rem
Originally Posted By: .280Rem
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict


If asked, would you give this answer in voir dire? And you would be asked if you could listen to the facts and apply the law to those facts? If "Not me, I would not convict" would be your preconceived stance, you'd be lying under oath to fail to disclose that.


Question is open to any that say they wouldn't convict...would you be truthful under oath?


Crickets huh? Nobody willing to admit they'd lie under oath to sit on this jury? Otherwise, you'd never sit on a jury like this.
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#5580482 - 09/02/11 08:21 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: .280Rem]
HugAJackass Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 15357
Loc: AL, USA
Originally Posted By: .280Rem
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict


If asked, would you give this answer in voir dire? And you would be asked if you could listen to the facts and apply the law to those facts? If "Not me, I would not convict" would be your preconceived stance, you'd be lying under oath to fail to disclose that.


Hey Jim! It's good to see you posting again. I haven't seen you in these parts in quite some time.

I have to confess that because of personal reasons I would be the last person a prosecutor would want in his jury. The amount of proof that I'd require would be considered "unreasonable" to most reasonable people.

That said, I'd have to be honest and tell them that straight up. It's not that I wouldn't uphold the law, but due to personal reasons I take "innocent until PROVEN guilty" to an extreme.
_________________________
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Turdlike, by default.

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#5580549 - 09/02/11 08:42 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: HugAJackass]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13628
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: HugAJackass
Originally Posted By: .280Rem
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.



Not me. I would not convict


If asked, would you give this answer in voir dire? And you would be asked if you could listen to the facts and apply the law to those facts? If "Not me, I would not convict" would be your preconceived stance, you'd be lying under oath to fail to disclose that.


Hey Jim! It's good to see you posting again. I haven't seen you in these parts in quite some time.

I have to confess that because of personal reasons I would be the last person a prosecutor would want in his jury. The amount of proof that I'd require would be considered "unreasonable" to most reasonable people.

That said, I'd have to be honest and tell them that straight up. It's not that I wouldn't uphold the law, but due to personal reasons I take "innocent until PROVEN guilty" to an extreme.


No qualms with that. Hope all your military "stuff" worked out, or is getting worked out.
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#5580564 - 09/02/11 08:46 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: .280Rem]
HugAJackass Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 15357
Loc: AL, USA
Yes sir! I couldn't have done it without you. The firm you put me onto did a masterful job and I get to keep my retirement.
_________________________
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Turdlike, by default.

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#5580567 - 09/02/11 08:47 AM Re: Man Shoots Robber Charged With Murder! [Re: HugAJackass]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13628
Loc: Alabama
Originally Posted By: HugAJackass
Yes sir! I couldn't have done it without you. The firm you put me onto did a masterful job and I get to keep my retirement.


Glad to hear it!
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