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Originally Posted by Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.
As a juror you stand in judgment both of the facts and the law. If you determine that in a particular case the law, applied literally, would result in an injustice, it's your right and duty to acquit.

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agree


A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Originally Posted by Wildalaska
No one here has enough facts to make a judgement.

WildsowhyargueoveritAlaska ��2002-2011
Naturally, anything we say here assumes the facts are as described. If it turns out not to be the case, we'd have to reevaluate our responses. This is pretty standard.

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Feel free to call me a puss but if someone just threatened me with a 'sharp object' and robbed me I would be in fear for my life regardless if the individual was facing me or not. He could just as likely spin around and kill me or may be thinking he is going to get a more deadly weapon.

I've never been robbed but am fairly certain I would be in a altered mental state for sometime after the initial confrontation. I'm certain my understanding of the duration of my life being endangered would be much different than any other time.


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Originally Posted by Take_a_knee
Originally Posted by Scott F
My heart would be with him but if I had to serve on his jury in this state and the evidence came out just like in the story I would have to find him guilty. Not sure of the laws there but here it is an open and shut thing. It was a bad shoot.


You are a puss.


grin Thank you Sir.

But I have a question for you. Have you ever sat of a jury and listened to the case for a week or more that had to listen to the judge lecture you on the law? It does not come down to how you feel about the law. It has nothing to do about your feelings about the person on trial. It has to do with the facts and did the person on trial break the law. Yes or no, black or white did he break the laws of that state, not the laws in any other state like Texas.

I would not like to send this man to prison. I would loose sleep over it. But let me say it again. If I was on that jury and the facts were presented to me as they are stated in the OP and I was not in Texas I would have to decide if this man committed a crime under the laws in the state where this happened.

I wish one of the guys here with the background in the law would chime in here and tell me where I am wrong.


Now to another point. There question about what exactly constitutes a case where shooting is justified. If someone hikes across my land that is trespass. Is that a justifiable shooting offense? If I ask them to leave and they refuse, that become criminal trespass in this state. Is that a justifiable shooting offense?

II drop my wallet wit twenty bucks in it and someone see me do it, grabs mt wallet and runs away. Is that a justifiable shooting offense? How about someone running over my dog or my llama? Or someone get pissed at me because I took the last can of Bush's Baked Beans off the shelf at the grocery and he pushes me down and grabs my can of beans. Is that a justifiable shooting offense?

Where exactly does an offense become so grievous that killing is justified.


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scott, this appears to be a classic eastern wa vs western washington difference of views. the man did not kill a guy grabbing the last can of beans. if he were 30 miles deep in the passayten wilderness and it was his last can of beans, which meant he would die without the beans, killing him would be justified to me. if a guy can kill both pilots of an airplane with a razorblade, I would be dang concerned with a guy swinging scissors. face it.....bad guy changed the dynamics of both parties day, it just worked out a whole lot worse for him. good riddens. IMO, we should send him the bg's welfare checks for his trouble.


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I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by Scott F
I would not like to send this man to prison. I would loose sleep over it. But let me say it again. If I was on that jury and the facts were presented to me as they are stated in the OP and I was not in Texas I would have to decide if this man committed a crime under the laws in the state where this happened.

I wish one of the guys here with the background in the law would chime in here and tell me where I am wrong.
I already have, Scott. The job of the juror is more to bring about justice than it is to enforce the literal law. That's part of why we have a jury system, rather than an inquisitorial one, as they do in other nations. A professional judge is all you need to determine if the laws were broken. A panel of the defendant's peers, however, represent the people, not the state, and therefore are empowered to consider whether or not, in the case before them, a rigid application of the law would bring about justice or injustice, and find accordingly.

Why do you think a jury isn't simply instructed to vote yes or no on a set of facts proposed to them by the judge, following which said judge determines if the law was violated? That's not how it's done. A jury not only determines what the facts were, but is also empowered to determine guilt or non-guilt, i.e., a person could be found to have violated a law, literally interpreted, yet still be acquitted, i.e., determined not guilty. Were it otherwise, a jury would only be asked to report to the judge what facts it has found to have occurred. As it is, it's asked only to determine guilt or non-guilt.

In our legal tradition, however, this only works in one direction, i.e., in the direction of acquittal, not conviction. Should a jury decide to disregard the law in their conviction of a defendant, a judge is empowered to acquit notwithstanding a jury's verdict if he determines that the facts don't actually support the conviction.

This is a double safety valve, built into our legal tradition, in favor of the accused..

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I can agree with most of your statements. The only part I see as a problem lays here.

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Once he took off with the money in the parking lot, reports indicate Canul, who has a concealed weapon permit, pulled out a gun and allegedly shot Abbot in the head. Abbot died at the Logan County Medical Center.


As I see it the threat was over. If Canul had drawn and killed Abbot when they were face to face I think he would have been good under the law in West Virginia. He probably would be facing charges in Washington.

Quote
Canul claims he was acting in self defense, but Bennett says there are clear legal definitions for that.

"If and when it ever gets to a grand jury, the judge would instruct them specifically on the law of self defense in this state." He says he has seen cases like this one before now.

"The facts are always somewhat different but, in many respects, quite similar."

At this point, Canul is facing murder charges.


Isn't this just about the way I stated it. Under the laws of West Virginia self defense is defined. It appears Canul broke those laws and the judge will instruct the jury on those laws. That is how the jury will have to decide this case.

I am really glad I will not be in that jury box. I disagree with the laws here in Washington. I think having to run and hide before being able to defend yourself from an attacker is out and out stupid. But those are the laws here. If I break them then I will have to face the consequences.


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perhaps the shooter lost a game of scissor throwing, when his opponent stuck his scissors in a stump at 50 paces after a spinning around from a dead run.

suddenly it sounds justifiable.


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From the above link.
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�He tells him 'You better back up. You better back up,' and the guy don't back up until he gets his wallet out. Then when he gets his wallet out and he sees that gun, he takes off running. That's when Jesse shot him, as soon as he took off,� Rodney Sells, a witness, said.

That's where the debate of self defense comes into play. Canul is facing murder charges because Abbott was already running away when he was shot. However, Canul�s supporters disagree.




Quote
WSAZ.com looked into the fine line between self defense and murder.

We found there is a line, but how fine it is -- depends. It depends what the law says about deadly force.

It also comes down to common sense, and what the facts may be of any individual case.

We went to the experts and the law books and asked 30-year NRA certified pistol instructor Chuck Yeager to demonstrate with WSAZ.com's Randy Yohe what he says all gun safety instructors teach -- that you only use deadly force if you are forced.

�I'd give you my wallet. It's in my pocket. Don't stab me," Yeager said. "Then, I would try to back up and put my hands in the air. And if you turn around and run away, I don't care. I can replace my wallet. Even though you're a criminal, your life is worth more than a wallet."

Cabell County Prosecutor Chris Chiles says there are two general rules in what's self defense and what's a criminal act.

�Who was the primary aggressor?" Chiles said. "And, was it reasonable for the person who acted to be in fear of death or serious bodily injury?�

A West Virginia law known as the Castle Doctrine says a person attacked in a public place is without a duty to retreat, if they are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm -- and can only be saved by the use of deadly force.


Better than Washington laws but no where near as good as Texas. I think this will cost Canul time.


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Originally Posted by high_country_
perhaps the shooter lost a game of scissor throwing, when his opponent stuck his scissors in a stump at 50 paces after a spinning around from a dead run.

suddenly it sounds justifiable.


Perhaps but I doubt it will turn out well for Mr. Canul.


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Originally Posted by Scott F

Perhaps but I doubt it will turn out well for Mr. Canul.
Oh, we're in perfect agreement on that.

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From reading these articles for years and years and seeing the outcome I think the biggest influence on your odds of getting charged with a crime is the district attorney instead of your state law. Sure it has a bearing, but I've seen some that would fall easily into the excessive force category that were allowed to walk and some that were in the good shoot category that were charged that may/may not have got off later.


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I cannot argue that one.

Edited to add:

I hope he walks. He was confronted with a violent man. In the heat of the occasion he made a decision. It was his decision alone and I was not standing in his shoes.

Last edited by Scott F; 08/31/11.

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Originally Posted by cal74
Originally Posted by bea175
If i was on the Jury it would be not guilty.



Exactly


If more people committing violent crimes were shot/killed than the next guy might think twice about doing a similar thing.

Give the shooter a medal and a small reward as far as I'm concerned.


I don't believe the guys doing things like this think at all of the consequences (either by mental defect or ego). But, eliminating one might save a life later.

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Originally Posted by Scott F


Where exactly does an offense become so grievous that killing is justified.


Scott, I'm not a lawyer, but I've studied the law and ethics of use of force and especially use of deadly force in depth and detail, primarily from a law enforcement perspective (i.e., use of force by police, against police, and against others being investigated by police).

First thing: at law, homicide is the killing of another person. If you have sufficient reason for killing another person, it is justifiable homicide, and it is not a criminal act. If you do not have sufficient reason, it is a crime. Everything hinges on justification.

Second thing: use of deadly force is only justified when the person using said force justifiably believes he is in danger of grave bodily harm, which means danger of being killed or being permanently injured by the offender.

Justifiable is the key word in this definition, and it is the pertinent element of the shooting we're discussing in this thread. In order for a homicide to be justified, the offender must have demonstrated 3 things: ability, opportunity, and jeopardy.

Ability means the offender has the ability to kill you or cause you grave bodily harm. He has a gun, an edged weapon, and the strength/size/apparent determination to use it; he's 7 feet tall and has a black belt; etc, etc, etc.

Opportunity means the offender is in a position to actually use his weapon on you. If a gun, within effective range of the weapon. If an edged weapon or bludgeon, within 7 yards or so. If he's got a broadsword but is on the opposite bank of a river and there isn't a bridge in sight, he doesn't have opportunity; if he's got a rifle, he's got opportunity.

Jeopardy means the offender has verbalized or otherwise demonstrated his intent to use the weapon against you right now. Pointing a gun at you is sufficient in most cases. Pointing a pair of scissors at you and saying,'Your wallet or your life' is sufficient. Pointing the scissors at you and saying, 'I might come looking for you with these scissors one of these days' does NOT constitute jeopardy.

In this case, the offender had turned away from the shooter and was apparently leaving the scene of the crime. He still has ability, but opportunity is equivocal and jeopardy is highly doubtful.

Given the facts as outlined in this thread, this is not a justifiable homicide. This man would be arrested in any jurisdiction in the United States, including Texas. There is nothing about this shooting that speaks to duty to retreat or "castle doctrine". I facts come out in the investigation or at trial that contradict the facts presented so far, he may be acquitted, but at this point I would predict he will be convicted of criminal homicide of some kind.


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A lot depends on a jury.

There was a shooting in Portland, Oregon a few years ago. A small business in downtown Portland, I believe that it may have been in the Pearl district, was held up by an armed robber. The robber left and was pursued by a person from the business. The pursuer was armed with a .380 auto pistol and shot the fleeing robber. The robber died as a result of being shot. The DA's office let it go to a Grand Jury and they declined to indict, in effect saying it was a righteous shooting. I can't remember where it went from there, if a civil suit was filed,etc..

Shooting such as this, justified or not, may alter how criminals approach prospective victims. With more states enacting legal permits to carry, it could have a dampening effect on daylight, public robberies.

Probably be an improvement over a suggested course of action some years ago when it was suggested if a woman was facing being raped that she void her bladder and bowels....which seems to be a typical liberal reaction to facing a dangerous situation.


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Very well stated, Doc.. Kudos..


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In Washington this would not have been a good shooting unless the robber was equally or greater armed and the victim had retreated as far as he could go. It is not enough here to be confronted face to face with a robber who is armed. You as the victim must retreat and try to get away.



That is pretty freaking sad, law or not.


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