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#5669344 - 10/01/11 VERY Disappointing 444
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 16421
Loc: North texas usa
A friend figured he owed me a rifle and had just come by a new Marlin 444 which he presented to me.It looked like it ought to do well as a pickup rifle , being short and all.

I've now shot up two boxes of factory loads and have reloaded about 20 of them , 3 or 4 at a time.I've got the third scope on it now and I know that's not the problem.

Up until today I have been shooting it at about forty yards or so out of the pickup window.The factory rounds were used in zeroing the scopes and busting jugs just to get used to it.I wasn't impressed with the accuracy , but laid it off to operator error for the most part.

The 240 gr. cast [KEAD] bullets I had on hand for my Blackhawk delivered about 6 in. groups at 40 yards with 4198 or plinking loads with LILGUN.

So I read on here what some of you liked and ordered 100 Cast Performance 320 gr. I started with 40 gr of 4198 - still shooting out of the pickup at 40 or so yards.POI was 6 inches to the right and about that low.Group size was 5 in.

So I loaded some with 41 gr and shot off my bench at 100 yards.DISMAL!I know I wasn't flinching because this rifle-unlike my old 1895 - has a safety button which I forgot to push off 2 or 3 times.[That maybe the only use for the damn thing!]

I could be charitable and claim a three shot group size of 5 inches at 100 yards with 41 gr of 4198 and the 320 gr.CP bullet.

I know some stuff to do to make a Ruger No. 1 or a bolt action shoot better,but this Marlin just seems to have "loser" engraved on it.

My old 1895 , even after I had the barrel cut down to 20 inches will still put 3 of the 350 gr Hornady[or just about anything else for that matter] into 2 or 2 1/2 inches at 100 yards.

BTW Both of these rifles wear Loopies.

Any use trying jacketed bullets ?
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

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#5669357 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
EvilTwin Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 18632
Loc: Upstate NY
Bullets might be TOO hard. Is it microgroove?? SIZING critical for performance from microgroove barrels.
_________________________
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid
ad triarios redisse
My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!

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#5669407 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
FlyboyFlem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 9282
Loc: Nebraska
You say "new" as in brand new latest production run or just a new older rifle? I had an old one in the late 70's [Micro groove] which shot very well even with cast bullets 250gr Keith to be exact.My newer one which has a Ballard barrel shoots lights out with anything I've run through it so far.Try a Hornady 265gr SP and 45 grs of 4198./.just can't believe this won't work for you.Maybe bench shooting would be a tad better and more accurate than out the window of the truck..you might try that. smile
_________________________
You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






Woody

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#5669432 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: FlyboyFlem]
EvilTwin Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 18632
Loc: Upstate NY
grinWell, there IS that!! grin
_________________________
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid
ad triarios redisse
My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!

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#5669472 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: EvilTwin]
viking Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 2725
Loc: Texas
Try the Hornandy LE's.
_________________________
Glocks remind me of an old German farm wife, kinda thick but will work night and day.

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#5669571 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: FlyboyFlem]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 16421
Loc: North texas usa
So I loaded some with 41 gr and shot off my bench at 100 yards.DISMAL!

It appears to be pretty new manufacture.It's ported , has the @#^#$@! safety button and is NOT microgroove.

If it shot the Rem factory loads reasonably well , and since this is my first attempt with cast bullets in a RIFLE ,I might have more confidence in trying jacketed bullets.With freight added in , I've got 50 bucks in these CP 320 gr. and I don't look forward to shooting them all up in my Bisley.

I'm going to load a few more and see what they do from a cold bore tomorrow morning.
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

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#5669659 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
MontanaMarine Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 8807
Loc: Canyon Ferry, Montana
Check the twist rate. The older 444s were 1/38, the newer are 1/20. The 1/38 might be too slow for a 320gr.

Also if the bore was coppered up, it will soak lead and wreak havoc with accuracy. And slug diameter might not be a great fit to the bore. Might want to slug it and measure.

Usually jacketed bullets are more forgiving than lead regarding good bore fit.

My 45-70 Marlin bore was really rough, and was rasping off so muuch lead my bullets were sideways at 100 yards. I fire-lapped it and all is well now.

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#5669815 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: MontanaMarine]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Usually the .444s are highly accurate. Buy a box of Remington 240 grain ammo. I hate ported guns but that shouldn't matter. Don't waste your money on the Hornady LEs.
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#5669848 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
FlyboyFlem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 9282
Loc: Nebraska
Just shot this last week..175 yds off the bench open sights while zeroing my son's Encore.Just for grins and accuracy purposes we're going to Lead Sled it sometime soon.This was the Hornady 265 gr SP and 45 gr/4198

_________________________
You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






Woody

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#5669874 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: FlyboyFlem]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
That Lead Sled will break your stock.
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#5669911 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Swampman700]
FlyboyFlem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 9282
Loc: Nebraska
Not when you cushion it..used it many times to help pards on all rifles lever 45/70's included no problems.It makes a great rest if you take recoil into consideration and KNOW HOW to make it work!!
_________________________
You better be afraid of a ghost!!

"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops






Woody

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#5669992 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: FlyboyFlem]
Fischer Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 477
Loc: Lithia - Central Florida
I've never heard of a Marlin shooting that poorly. My 444 cloverleafs at 100 yds. That 444p should be a shooter with that short stiff barrel. First thing I'd do is clean the hell out of that barrel. No telling how many barrels have been replaced that were probably just fouled.

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#5670625 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Fischer]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 16421
Loc: North texas usa
One thing is for sure.The 320 gr. Cast Performance bullets are NEVER going to shoot well in THIS rifle.I shot 3 of them in front of 41 gr. of 4198 at 80 yards off the bench this morning.The minimum distance between two shots was EIGHT inches.The maximum was THIRTEEN inches!Oddly enough , the one inch bull was more or less centered in the "group".

I know this sounds like a scope mounting problem...BUT......

I found some load recipes for the TC Contender in one of my Hornady books for a 240 gr jacketed bullet.I used that data for H110 and the 240 gr cast bullets from KEAD and loaded 3 rounds.I shot them from about 40 yards out my pickup window and was in the black with the first two and pulled the third.

Considering the distance from the front of the chamber to the aft-most port , establishing the twist rate with a cleaning rod is problematic.Besides , I don't care WHY it won't shoot the heavy cast bullets.It's enough to know that IT WON'T.


For those critical of "window shooting"; if a PD stays up long enough for me to park at the right angle and poke my 22 250 AI in his direction , if the range is 200 yards or less , you can hear the sweet sound of "taps" playing before I squeeze the round off.grin

I'm going to try some more of the 240 gr cast and get some 240 jacketed.

Anybody want to buy some 320 CP bullets ?

Or trade?
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

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#5670635 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Fischer]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 16421
Loc: North texas usa
You're right.But that's not the problem here.I've learned this much:

A good barrel will shoot most any thing it is SUPPOSED to shoot and will do it well.

Some barrels are finicky about their groceries , but are good for SOMETHING.

I haven't run across a completely worthless new barrel yet[unless this one proves to be it.]

If this rifle were not a gift , it would be someone else's problem already.
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

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#5670866 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
I think you're full of crap.
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#5670939 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Swampman700]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 16421
Loc: North texas usa
It's obvious you've earned the reputation you have on here of being a know it all smart ass that very well may not own a firearm.Now....... That's the reputation you have with other folks.

As far as I'm concerned , you are just a dime a dozen , sorry son of a bitch and I'm making arrangements right now so that I never have to see anything you type on this website.
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

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#5670979 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Good, then I won't have to listen to your lies.
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#5671042 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: curdog4570]
rahtreelimbs Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 4605
Loc: The Burgh !!!
Originally Posted By: curdog4570
It's obvious you've earned the reputation you have on here of being a know it all smart ass that very well may not own a firearm.Now....... That's the reputation you have with other folks.

As far as I'm concerned , you are just a dime a dozen , sorry son of a bitch and I'm making arrangements right now so that I never have to see anything you type on this website.



I am sure many will find truth in this.............The Novice!!!
_________________________
........are you stupid or just misinformed???

Later, Rich !!!





















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#5671124 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: rahtreelimbs]
Fischer Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 477
Loc: Lithia - Central Florida
Your 444 has 1 in 20 Ballard rifling and should shoot cast bullets just fine. Since it doesn't, I think you should dump it cheap and make it my problem...

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#5671178 - 10/01/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: rahtreelimbs]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Originally Posted By: rahtreelimbs
The Novice!!!


Amen

He's a liar....
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#5671432 - 10/02/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Fischer]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 16421
Loc: North texas usa
My "Plan B" with the H110 and 240 gr. cast didn't work either.

I'm going to switch bases , rings and scope from my 1895 and buy another box of factory cartridges and start all over.

I originally put an old Redfield widefield 4X on this rifle and zeroed with Factory 240's.The old scope was pretty dim and I knew I was going to replace it so I never actually shot it for a group.

I bought a Vari X 2 from SWFA and tried zeroing again.It became obvious that the vertical adjustment wasn't responding right , so I sent it back to the factory for repair.Again, I never got a decent idea opf a group size.

I swapped the Vari X 2 for a M8 4X and that's what I've been using.There is no discernible movement in the bases or rings , but I'm gonna start all over with something I KNOW is OK.

If that don't work , it will be for trade for sure.

I've got a 244 AI with a Shilen barrel that won't shoot a 6 in group with 100 gr bullets , but outshoots me with 70 gr bt's.
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

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#5671555 - 10/02/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Swampman700]
rahtreelimbs Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 4605
Loc: The Burgh !!!
Originally Posted By: Swampman700
Originally Posted By: rahtreelimbs
The Novice!!!


Amen

He's a liar....


Is that the best you can do???




_________________________
........are you stupid or just misinformed???

Later, Rich !!!





















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#5671811 - 10/02/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: rahtreelimbs]
the_shootist Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 19006
Loc: NW Ontario, Canada
Don't get CD going. Swampgas is no match for the old texican!
_________________________
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith


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#5671907 - 10/02/11 Re: VERY Disappointing 444 [Re: Swampman700]
blanket Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2618
Loc: SE, Iowa
Originally Posted By: Swampman700
Good, then I won't have to listen to your lies.
hey swampy, we all KNOW your full of crap. Don't care if it is one of your idols that you worship, Remington and Marlin do have crap out there and advising someone to shoot a box of your go to factory loads out of one of these POS is about as helpfull and informative as most of the crap you post

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