CLICK HERE for NIKON PROSTAFF 7i LASER RANGEFINDER!
 

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#5714064 - 10/15/11 Alliant Black MZ?????
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 3052
Loc: Oklahoma City
So what is this stuff? Something new or is it the new name for the Black Dot they announced a while back? I'm guessing not after that little problem at the BlackMag factory.

It also appears that Goex has dropped Pinnacle.

I'm so confused. I think I'll just make the 40 mile drive and get real black.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

Top
RV 728 BP
#5714578 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
It's just APP powder with a new label.

You can never go wrong with real BP. Swiss being the premium black powder.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5714727 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
American Pioneer / Shockey's Gold is the worst propellant I've ever evaluated. Pinnacle as well was made by American Pioneer. Hodgdon bought Goex, so the discontinuation of Pinnacle was a certainty.

Blackpowder has always been a consistent propellant, but availability can be a problem. Alliant has extremely good distribution and, while APP had no apparent quality control, Alliant claims to test every lot, and shot to shot velocity variations within 30 - 35 fps are now commonplace.

Black-MZ has the appeal of easy ignition, a lower auto-ignition temperature than Pyrodex, less corrosivity than black, Pyrodex, T7, and it is more moisture-resistant as well. It works best as 90 grain (volume) charges in many .50 caliber frontloaders.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714825 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
How can it be more moisture resistant when it clumps up so easily?
Testing all the batches won't change that.


Edited by Old_Hunter (10/15/11)
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5714877 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
should give you the idea.

Clumping is common particularly with any residual oil or solvents; it works best with dry barrels.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714898 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
omega45 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 64
Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community. It is nothing more then rebadged American Pioneer JSP Super. Alliant should be ashamed of themselves for putting their name on it!! If you want the best buy Blackhorn 209.


Edited by omega45 (10/15/11)

Top
#5714934 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: omega45]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
couldnt believe it myself when i saw they just put american pioneer in the bottle. APP can be a good consistent powder, and accurate as heck too but it and nothing else compares to BH209.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5714944 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: omega45]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally Posted By: omega45
Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community.


Who says so? Can you name twenty people that have actually used it, much less a "community"?

It has its niche, based on its easy ignition. If you use #11 caps, its is a way to get away from Pyrodex and associated barrel-rotting. Black Mag 3 had more potential, but the explosion and a couple of dead folks quickly ended that one.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714961 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
what they claim and what they actually do are 2 different things. You still have to swab between shots in order to seat the next load. So thats one issue right off the bat thats a false claim is the no swabbing part. Erratic FPS is the number 1 issue as usual.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5714965 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5714974 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO




Edited by bigblock455 (10/15/11)
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5714983 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. It is less filthy and less corrosive than Pyrodex. It does suck less moisture than T7, has less of a crud ring. It is sulfur-free. It is easier to clean up than Pyrodex or T7.

I wouldn't personally hunt with it . . . Black Horn 209 is, by far, the best bp replacement on the market and the best ever. No question in my mind . . . and I have hunted with BH209 and will continue to. I'm not using sidelocks, though, nor am I using #11 cap ignition.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714997 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally Posted By: Old_Hunter
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?


I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5715076 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 3052
Loc: Oklahoma City
Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

Top
#5715147 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
Originally Posted By: Son_of_the_Gael
Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5lmjSHJNxk
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5715174 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 3052
Loc: Oklahoma City
Thank you, sir. I hadn't thought about that.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

Top
#5715186 - 10/15/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
i havent tried it yet with patched round balls. Thats next on the list! I just wonder how BH209 will react to the lubed patch.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5715769 - 10/16/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: RandyWakeman
Originally Posted By: Old_Hunter
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?


I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.


Filthy is a non issue to a hunter. As dirty as Goex is. You can load a second shot if needed. Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

APP came with a dissectant in the bottle. I don't think any other powder has to do that. Does Black MZ do that? Same powder. I'm not sure you never saw clumping in the bottle. It's a well known problem, and i've seen it.

So, I don't worry about a powder being hard to load or clean. I worry about a powder that sucks in moisture after it's been loaded. I also worry about a powder that's inconsistent in FPS. That changes the POI. APP doesn't score high in either of those categories. The Alliant powder still looks like the same kitty litter, but a darker color.

I'll need to see some range tests to believe they made it better.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5901975 - 12/10/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
calinb Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: RandyWakeman
Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. <snip>

Absolutely--this is the reason for my interest in it! Hunting with 209 primers during muzzleloader season in the northwest is not lawful. I'm a fan of Triple Seven because I don't want to leave a corrosive substance in the bore after a fowling shot. Unfortunately, Triple Seven ignition can be marginal with caps when the weather is cold (like it is on every hunt ;)). Even with nightly cleaning, taking a fowling shot at O-dark:30 every day is even less practical. Who wants to start making noise and scaring the game away before shooting light even arrives? A non-corrosive powder enables leaving the bore in a condition best suited for accuracy without damaging it.

Originally Posted By: Mauser_Hunter
Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

Why yes I have! I shot a whitetail buck at 107 yards once. He never saw me prone in the grass and ran down the other side of the draw from me until he stood about 65 yards away from me. He just stood there for what seemed to be the longest time (plenty of time to reload). He looked a bit shaky but didn't drop so I dropped him with the second shot. I always reload!


Edited by calinb (12/10/11)

Top
#5901978 - 12/10/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: calinb]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
American Pioneer is corrosive
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5901987 - 12/10/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
calinb Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
American Pioneer is corrosive
Alliant says Black MZ is "Virtually non-corrosive." I don't know what "virtually" means but combustion always produces water, which itself is corrosive, and the claim seems solid enough from a solid company for me to try it! I have some AP Shokey's Gold. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see if they've tightened up the grain size consistency vs. AP SG.


Edited by calinb (12/10/11)

Top
#5903161 - 12/10/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: calinb]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
"virtually"

Trust me, its still corrosive but just not near as bad as Pyrodex or black powder.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5903497 - 12/10/11 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Brazos Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 821
Loc: Warshington, Wet Side
I always reload too. And I always use Goex ffg and maxiballs.

At the range I can go 5 or 6 shots without swabbing with this combo.

Real BP can be "mail ordered" from Track of the Wolf and other places.

Top
#10047900 - 06/21/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
Newtire Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Southwestern Idaho
Originally Posted By Mauser_Hunter
How can it be more moisture resistant when it clumps up so easily?b
Testing all the batches won't change that.
Hard to believe alot of what you read. I just bought some MZ at sportsmans warehouse for $10.00 a pound. It had numerous dessicant packs in it and I noticed some clumping that crumbled easily. I took it out & shot it in my Zoli .58 with 50 gr. volume. It was very consistent only 100 fps slower than 777 at same volume. I cranked up the volume and at 60 gr. volume, it was even with the 777 at 50 gr.. Was shooting Minie balls...Lyman 315 grain SWC as well as a Lee .578 Target flat nose sledgehammer thing. Had a few .580 minies I bobought from Track of Wolf thatshot well. Think the black MZ ought to be great for Minie shooters as it has a slower pressure rise seems like.

I sure had good luck with it and easy cleanup. Not in same league as Pyrodex. More akin to 777 but slower. I'm picking up 2 more pounds at $9.99 per at Sportsman.


Edited by Newtire (06/21/15)

Top
#10047984 - 06/21/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
you'll like it with a huge conical like that. It does best with a tight fitting sabot or a heavy slug like it.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#10719391 - 11/22/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Newtire Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 14
Loc: Southwestern Idaho
Tried the Black MZ and 777 in my .58 Zouave. Black MZ performed great with the heavier Minie's and no swabbing between shots. Cleanup is not like black or pyrodex. Good stuff if you ask me.

This is from someone who actually shot the stuff and chrono tested it. Very consistent velocities. Lighter charges not so efficient but once up in weight, really shines. not much compression with Minie ball, just more weight.

Top
#10719660 - 11/22/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
Pappy348 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/10/13
Posts: 4049
Loc: WV, Thank God!
After trying a couple of substitutes in sidelocks, I've decided that my next one will only be fed BP. I have a large distributor nearby, but it also can be ordered online, and the purchase of a few pounds will ease the hazmat pain a bit. I read a test report on Old Eynsford (spelling?) and it performed very well in a number of different applications. Using Ballistol for cleaning eliminated all that seasoning nonsense for me.

If I get bored I might even try it in my Knight Ultralite, which has only been fed BH209 so far.
_________________________
“Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.” P.J. O'Rourke

Top
#10720162 - 11/22/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2823
Loc: Boncarbo,CO
no such thing as seasoning your bore. It will still taste my steel.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#10721981 - 11/23/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
kciH Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 5152
I've been using it in a few rifles and it has performed well so far. I want to use one powder for #11 and 209's, it lights with either with no issue. I've used it with PRB, Great Plains, Maxi-Ball, and sabot with good results. I've not yet used it really cold weather, but it was 33 degrees when I got to the range this weekend. The powder does come with desiccant packs inside and it will clump up a little. I just lightly shook the bottle and the clumps went away.

I can load multiple shots without wiping the barrel, except with sabots. The plastic fouling is the issue in that instance. You can still load that second shot with the sabot, but it's a bich.

Clean up is easy, but I'm pretty thorough with that no matter what I use.

The biggest thing that drove me to it was the issue with T7 shooting to a VERY different POI between a clean barrel and the second shot, even if it was wiped between. That was a confidence killer.
_________________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." TJ

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". EB


Top
#10728112 - 11/25/15 Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
CrimsonTide Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 18518
Loc: Kentucky
Well, I will go ahead and give my 2 cents worth. I bought a pound of Black MZ. It's what I run in my Knight LK93 54 Caliber. I shoot 425 grain Hornady Great Plains bullets in that rifle with 100 grains of the Black MZ and it is good to go, accuracy wise, with only a spit patch and a dry patch after every two shots.

My rifle is set up to shoot number 11 caps, so I can't shoot BH209.

I'll likely buy another pound. (Oh, and like others have mentioned, a shake of the can does away with clumps.)
_________________________
"If gun control worked, Chicago would look like Mayberry, not Thunderdome."


Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
RV 180 2
CLICK HERE for GREAT PRICES on SWAROVSKI NEW EL RANGE BINOCULAR!
RV 160 1 2
RV 160 2 2
Who's Online
439 registered (257_X_50, 12Oclock, 257heaven, 12344mag, 1Nut, 63 invisible), 1099 Guests and 449 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RV 160 3 2
Forum Stats
55,321 Registered Members
73 Forums
732,445 Topics
10,625,151 Posts

Most users ever online: 4,830 @ 12/02/14










Copyright © 2000-2016 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
CLICK HERE for VORTEX BINOCULARS, RIFLESCOPES, SPOTTING SCOPES, and RANGEFINDERS!