NIKON PROSTAFF - 480 CLICKS OF CAN-DO!
 

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#5714064 - 10/15/11 08:37 AM Alliant Black MZ?????
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 2698
Loc: Oklahoma City
So what is this stuff? Something new or is it the new name for the Black Dot they announced a while back? I'm guessing not after that little problem at the BlackMag factory.

It also appears that Goex has dropped Pinnacle.

I'm so confused. I think I'll just make the 40 mile drive and get real black.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

Top
RV 728 BP
CLICK HERE to BUY ABM MATCH-GRADE HUNTING AMMUNITION!
#5714578 - 10/15/11 03:10 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
It's just APP powder with a new label.

You can never go wrong with real BP. Swiss being the premium black powder.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5714727 - 10/15/11 04:00 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
American Pioneer / Shockey's Gold is the worst propellant I've ever evaluated. Pinnacle as well was made by American Pioneer. Hodgdon bought Goex, so the discontinuation of Pinnacle was a certainty.

Blackpowder has always been a consistent propellant, but availability can be a problem. Alliant has extremely good distribution and, while APP had no apparent quality control, Alliant claims to test every lot, and shot to shot velocity variations within 30 - 35 fps are now commonplace.

Black-MZ has the appeal of easy ignition, a lower auto-ignition temperature than Pyrodex, less corrosivity than black, Pyrodex, T7, and it is more moisture-resistant as well. It works best as 90 grain (volume) charges in many .50 caliber frontloaders.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714825 - 10/15/11 04:32 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
How can it be more moisture resistant when it clumps up so easily?
Testing all the batches won't change that.


Edited by Old_Hunter (10/15/11 04:33 PM)
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5714877 - 10/15/11 04:57 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
should give you the idea.

Clumping is common particularly with any residual oil or solvents; it works best with dry barrels.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714898 - 10/15/11 05:08 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
omega45 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 64
Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community. It is nothing more then rebadged American Pioneer JSP Super. Alliant should be ashamed of themselves for putting their name on it!! If you want the best buy Blackhorn 209.


Edited by omega45 (10/15/11 05:10 PM)

Top
#5714934 - 10/15/11 05:23 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: omega45]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
couldnt believe it myself when i saw they just put american pioneer in the bottle. APP can be a good consistent powder, and accurate as heck too but it and nothing else compares to BH209.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5714944 - 10/15/11 05:27 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: omega45]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally Posted By: omega45
Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community.


Who says so? Can you name twenty people that have actually used it, much less a "community"?

It has its niche, based on its easy ignition. If you use #11 caps, its is a way to get away from Pyrodex and associated barrel-rotting. Black Mag 3 had more potential, but the explosion and a couple of dead folks quickly ended that one.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714961 - 10/15/11 05:40 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
what they claim and what they actually do are 2 different things. You still have to swab between shots in order to seat the next load. So thats one issue right off the bat thats a false claim is the no swabbing part. Erratic FPS is the number 1 issue as usual.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5714965 - 10/15/11 05:41 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5714974 - 10/15/11 05:45 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727




Edited by bigblock455 (10/15/11 05:46 PM)
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5714983 - 10/15/11 05:48 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. It is less filthy and less corrosive than Pyrodex. It does suck less moisture than T7, has less of a crud ring. It is sulfur-free. It is easier to clean up than Pyrodex or T7.

I wouldn't personally hunt with it . . . Black Horn 209 is, by far, the best bp replacement on the market and the best ever. No question in my mind . . . and I have hunted with BH209 and will continue to. I'm not using sidelocks, though, nor am I using #11 cap ignition.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5714997 - 10/15/11 05:54 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally Posted By: Old_Hunter
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?


I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.
_________________________
--Randy


Top
#5715076 - 10/15/11 06:30 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 2698
Loc: Oklahoma City
Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

Top
#5715147 - 10/15/11 07:05 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
Originally Posted By: Son_of_the_Gael
Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5lmjSHJNxk
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5715174 - 10/15/11 07:23 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/02/04
Posts: 2698
Loc: Oklahoma City
Thank you, sir. I hadn't thought about that.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

Top
#5715186 - 10/15/11 07:31 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
i havent tried it yet with patched round balls. Thats next on the list! I just wonder how BH209 will react to the lubed patch.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5715769 - 10/16/11 12:10 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: RandyWakeman
Originally Posted By: Old_Hunter
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?


I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.


Filthy is a non issue to a hunter. As dirty as Goex is. You can load a second shot if needed. Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

APP came with a dissectant in the bottle. I don't think any other powder has to do that. Does Black MZ do that? Same powder. I'm not sure you never saw clumping in the bottle. It's a well known problem, and i've seen it.

So, I don't worry about a powder being hard to load or clean. I worry about a powder that sucks in moisture after it's been loaded. I also worry about a powder that's inconsistent in FPS. That changes the POI. APP doesn't score high in either of those categories. The Alliant powder still looks like the same kitty litter, but a darker color.

I'll need to see some range tests to believe they made it better.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

Top
#5901975 - 12/10/11 05:21 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
calinb Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: RandyWakeman
Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. <snip>

Absolutely--this is the reason for my interest in it! Hunting with 209 primers during muzzleloader season in the northwest is not lawful. I'm a fan of Triple Seven because I don't want to leave a corrosive substance in the bore after a fowling shot. Unfortunately, Triple Seven ignition can be marginal with caps when the weather is cold (like it is on every hunt ;)). Even with nightly cleaning, taking a fowling shot at O-dark:30 every day is even less practical. Who wants to start making noise and scaring the game away before shooting light even arrives? A non-corrosive powder enables leaving the bore in a condition best suited for accuracy without damaging it.

Originally Posted By: Mauser_Hunter
Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

Why yes I have! I shot a whitetail buck at 107 yards once. He never saw me prone in the grass and ran down the other side of the draw from me until he stood about 65 yards away from me. He just stood there for what seemed to be the longest time (plenty of time to reload). He looked a bit shaky but didn't drop so I dropped him with the second shot. I always reload!


Edited by calinb (12/10/11 05:27 AM)

Top
#5901978 - 12/10/11 05:24 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: calinb]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
American Pioneer is corrosive
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5901987 - 12/10/11 05:30 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
calinb Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
American Pioneer is corrosive
Alliant says Black MZ is "Virtually non-corrosive." I don't know what "virtually" means but combustion always produces water, which itself is corrosive, and the claim seems solid enough from a solid company for me to try it! I have some AP Shokey's Gold. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see if they've tightened up the grain size consistency vs. AP SG.


Edited by calinb (12/10/11 04:28 PM)

Top
#5903161 - 12/10/11 06:25 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: calinb]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
"virtually"

Trust me, its still corrosive but just not near as bad as Pyrodex or black powder.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
#5903497 - 12/10/11 08:15 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Brazos Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/30/04
Posts: 581
Loc: Warshington, Wet Side
I always reload too. And I always use Goex ffg and maxiballs.

At the range I can go 5 or 6 shots without swabbing with this combo.

Real BP can be "mail ordered" from Track of the Wolf and other places.

Top
#10047900 - 06/21/15 12:56 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
Newtire Offline
Member

Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 13
Loc: Southwestern Idaho
Originally Posted By Mauser_Hunter
How can it be more moisture resistant when it clumps up so easily?b
Testing all the batches won't change that.
Hard to believe alot of what you read. I just bought some MZ at sportsmans warehouse for $10.00 a pound. It had numerous dessicant packs in it and I noticed some clumping that crumbled easily. I took it out & shot it in my Zoli .58 with 50 gr. volume. It was very consistent only 100 fps slower than 777 at same volume. I cranked up the volume and at 60 gr. volume, it was even with the 777 at 50 gr.. Was shooting Minie balls...Lyman 315 grain SWC as well as a Lee .578 Target flat nose sledgehammer thing. Had a few .580 minies I bobought from Track of Wolf thatshot well. Think the black MZ ought to be great for Minie shooters as it has a slower pressure rise seems like.

I sure had good luck with it and easy cleanup. Not in same league as Pyrodex. More akin to 777 but slower. I'm picking up 2 more pounds at $9.99 per at Sportsman.


Edited by Newtire (06/21/15 12:59 PM)

Top
#10047984 - 06/21/15 01:28 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2727
you'll like it with a huge conical like that. It does best with a tight fitting sabot or a heavy slug like it.
_________________________
www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
RV 180
CLICK HERE to see SUPERB STEINER OPTICS!
RV 160 1
Who's Online
514 registered (1minute, 17_wizzer, 12344mag, 163dm, 1234, 58 invisible), 1069 Guests and 374 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RV 160 2
CLICK HERE to see the AWESOME NEW SWAROVSKI STR SPOTTER at CAMERA LAND!
Forum Stats
53,069 Registered Members
72 Forums
683,277 Topics
9,865,189 Posts

Most users ever online: 4,830 @ 12/02/14 02:45 AM










Copyright © 2000-2015 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.