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#5714064 - 10/15/11 01:37 AM Alliant Black MZ?????
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 2394
Loc: Oklahoma City
So what is this stuff? Something new or is it the new name for the Black Dot they announced a while back? I'm guessing not after that little problem at the BlackMag factory.

It also appears that Goex has dropped Pinnacle.

I'm so confused. I think I'll just make the 40 mile drive and get real black.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

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#5714578 - 10/15/11 08:10 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
It's just APP powder with a new label.

You can never go wrong with real BP. Swiss being the premium black powder.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#5714727 - 10/15/11 09:00 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
American Pioneer / Shockey's Gold is the worst propellant I've ever evaluated. Pinnacle as well was made by American Pioneer. Hodgdon bought Goex, so the discontinuation of Pinnacle was a certainty.

Blackpowder has always been a consistent propellant, but availability can be a problem. Alliant has extremely good distribution and, while APP had no apparent quality control, Alliant claims to test every lot, and shot to shot velocity variations within 30 - 35 fps are now commonplace.

Black-MZ has the appeal of easy ignition, a lower auto-ignition temperature than Pyrodex, less corrosivity than black, Pyrodex, T7, and it is more moisture-resistant as well. It works best as 90 grain (volume) charges in many .50 caliber frontloaders.
_________________________
--Randy


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#5714825 - 10/15/11 09:32 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
How can it be more moisture resistant when it clumps up so easily?
Testing all the batches won't change that.


Edited by Old_Hunter (10/15/11 09:33 AM)
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#5714877 - 10/15/11 09:57 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
should give you the idea.

Clumping is common particularly with any residual oil or solvents; it works best with dry barrels.
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--Randy


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#5714898 - 10/15/11 10:08 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
omega45 Offline
Member

Registered: 09/12/11
Posts: 64
Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community. It is nothing more then rebadged American Pioneer JSP Super. Alliant should be ashamed of themselves for putting their name on it!! If you want the best buy Blackhorn 209.


Edited by omega45 (10/15/11 10:10 AM)

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#5714934 - 10/15/11 10:23 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: omega45]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado
couldnt believe it myself when i saw they just put american pioneer in the bottle. APP can be a good consistent powder, and accurate as heck too but it and nothing else compares to BH209.

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#5714944 - 10/15/11 10:27 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: omega45]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally Posted By: omega45
Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community.


Who says so? Can you name twenty people that have actually used it, much less a "community"?

It has its niche, based on its easy ignition. If you use #11 caps, its is a way to get away from Pyrodex and associated barrel-rotting. Black Mag 3 had more potential, but the explosion and a couple of dead folks quickly ended that one.
_________________________
--Randy


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#5714961 - 10/15/11 10:40 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado
what they claim and what they actually do are 2 different things. You still have to swab between shots in order to seat the next load. So thats one issue right off the bat thats a false claim is the no swabbing part. Erratic FPS is the number 1 issue as usual.

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#5714965 - 10/15/11 10:41 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#5714974 - 10/15/11 10:45 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado




Edited by bigblock455 (10/15/11 10:46 AM)

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#5714983 - 10/15/11 10:48 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. It is less filthy and less corrosive than Pyrodex. It does suck less moisture than T7, has less of a crud ring. It is sulfur-free. It is easier to clean up than Pyrodex or T7.

I wouldn't personally hunt with it . . . Black Horn 209 is, by far, the best bp replacement on the market and the best ever. No question in my mind . . . and I have hunted with BH209 and will continue to. I'm not using sidelocks, though, nor am I using #11 cap ignition.
_________________________
--Randy


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#5714997 - 10/15/11 10:54 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
RandyWakeman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 588
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Originally Posted By: Old_Hunter
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?


I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.
_________________________
--Randy


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#5715076 - 10/15/11 11:30 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 2394
Loc: Oklahoma City
Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

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#5715147 - 10/15/11 12:05 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado
Originally Posted By: Son_of_the_Gael
Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5lmjSHJNxk

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#5715174 - 10/15/11 12:23 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Son_of_the_Gael Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 2394
Loc: Oklahoma City
Thank you, sir. I hadn't thought about that.
_________________________
"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffet)

SotG

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#5715186 - 10/15/11 12:31 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: Son_of_the_Gael]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado
i havent tried it yet with patched round balls. Thats next on the list! I just wonder how BH209 will react to the lubed patch.

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#5715769 - 10/15/11 05:10 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: RandyWakeman
Originally Posted By: Old_Hunter
Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?


I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.


Filthy is a non issue to a hunter. As dirty as Goex is. You can load a second shot if needed. Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

APP came with a dissectant in the bottle. I don't think any other powder has to do that. Does Black MZ do that? Same powder. I'm not sure you never saw clumping in the bottle. It's a well known problem, and i've seen it.

So, I don't worry about a powder being hard to load or clean. I worry about a powder that sucks in moisture after it's been loaded. I also worry about a powder that's inconsistent in FPS. That changes the POI. APP doesn't score high in either of those categories. The Alliant powder still looks like the same kitty litter, but a darker color.

I'll need to see some range tests to believe they made it better.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#5901975 - 12/09/11 09:21 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: RandyWakeman]
calinb Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: RandyWakeman
Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. <snip>

Absolutely--this is the reason for my interest in it! Hunting with 209 primers during muzzleloader season in the northwest is not lawful. I'm a fan of Triple Seven because I don't want to leave a corrosive substance in the bore after a fowling shot. Unfortunately, Triple Seven ignition can be marginal with caps when the weather is cold (like it is on every hunt ;)). Even with nightly cleaning, taking a fowling shot at O-dark:30 every day is even less practical. Who wants to start making noise and scaring the game away before shooting light even arrives? A non-corrosive powder enables leaving the bore in a condition best suited for accuracy without damaging it.

Originally Posted By: Mauser_Hunter
Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

Why yes I have! I shot a whitetail buck at 107 yards once. He never saw me prone in the grass and ran down the other side of the draw from me until he stood about 65 yards away from me. He just stood there for what seemed to be the longest time (plenty of time to reload). He looked a bit shaky but didn't drop so I dropped him with the second shot. I always reload!


Edited by calinb (12/09/11 09:27 PM)

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#5901978 - 12/09/11 09:24 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: calinb]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado
American Pioneer is corrosive

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#5901987 - 12/09/11 09:30 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
calinb Offline
New Member

Registered: 04/07/11
Posts: 5
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
American Pioneer is corrosive
Alliant says Black MZ is "Virtually non-corrosive." I don't know what "virtually" means but combustion always produces water, which itself is corrosive, and the claim seems solid enough from a solid company for me to try it! I have some AP Shokey's Gold. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see if they've tightened up the grain size consistency vs. AP SG.


Edited by calinb (12/10/11 08:28 AM)

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#5903161 - 12/10/11 10:25 AM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: calinb]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2440
Loc: Boncarbo,Colorado
"virtually"

Trust me, its still corrosive but just not near as bad as Pyrodex or black powder.

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#5903497 - 12/10/11 12:15 PM Re: Alliant Black MZ????? [Re: bigblock455]
Brazos Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 427
Loc: Warshington, Wet Side
I always reload too. And I always use Goex ffg and maxiballs.

At the range I can go 5 or 6 shots without swabbing with this combo.

Real BP can be "mail ordered" from Track of the Wolf and other places.

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