Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Trophy Bonded Bear Claw recovered bullet pics

My primary deer rifle is a Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in .280, with a Sightron SII Big Sky 3-9x42 mounted in Talley lightweight rings (quite possibly the perfect deer rifle). A few years ago, Midway ran a clearance sale on Federal High Energy .280 ammo with 140gr Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullets, so I bought 10 boxes. I've chrono'd the ammo through my 22" barrel, and if memory serves me correctly, MV was was over 2950 fps.

I've taken several deer with the ammo, and all have been one shot kills. This weekend, I was able to use the load again with similar results. Distance was 88 yards, and the deer dropped in his tracks. The bullet entered the front right shoulder broadside, but did not exit the other side. I was surprised by this, as every other deer taken with the load has made an entry and exit hole (with no recovered bullets).

Bullet was recovered on the opposite side, just under the hide. It passed through both shoulders completely, but stopped just short of passing through the hide. The internal cavity was a complete mess, although the impact shoulder wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Here are a few pics:






Initial bullet weight was 140gr, with a recovered weight of 116.8gr. I honestly thought bullet weight would be well over 125gr, but 83% weight retention with no separation of the jacket or core is about as good as I could ask for.

No, you CAN ask for better. Barnes, for example at 95-100% weight retention being the norm, and also never a separation of core etc, since there ain't one.

Nice looking bullet mushroom, Glad you got a deer, got a picture of the buck?

Looks like text book performance to me.

The .280 is poison on deer and the TBBC is a damn fine bullet. That one is a great addition to the recovered bullet box. Congratulations on your buck.

If your textbook is old enough. Perfect performance, 1920-1980 style.

No exit wound when using a 280 on a mere deer? Sorry, not good enough. Not even sort of.

I'm a Barnes fan also, but in defense of the TBBC, I've had two 140 Nosler Partitions from 7mmRemMags stopped in small deer after very little penetration. Of course, both were DRT and the ranges were short, less than 50 yards. Something about high speed and short range just doesn't work right.

I agree with you to an extent. Yes, there was no exit wound, so you'll get no argument from me regarding that simple fact. However, the deer dropped in his tracks, so its hard to argue with performance. This is probably the 5th or so deer I have taken with the 140gr TBBC, and only one didn't drop (ran less than 30-40 yards).

Now, if I were hunting larger game, I would certainly be somewhat concerned. One must consider, though, that one example is anecdotal at best. In fact, its difficult to really take much from this except the bullet didn't separate and mushroomed almost perfectly.

As I mentioned, this is the only bullet I have recovered out of 5 or 6 animals. Does that mean the TBBC is the perfect bullet? No, but that certainly doesn't mean it is worthless, either! Besides, I'll take a dropped deer with no exit wound any day over an exit hole on a running deer.

Nevertheless, I have 6-7 more boxes of the stuff, so it doesn't look as though I'll be abandoning it anytime soon.

All those years guiding brown bear hunts with TBBC's in my H&H and I never knew that they would'nt work .

I shot them at hogs and they work.

I think your bullet did just fine. I shot a blackbuck ram at 60 yds with a .257 WBY, 110 grain accubond, and incredibly I had no exit wound. The bullet was under the skin, far side and expanded every possible micron and the internals looked like a hand grenade had been used. The animal dropped in its tracks.

I'd expect an exit wound, but for some reason it didn't happen. However, you couldn't have had any more internal damage. Strange performance, but not a bullet failure.

I like/expect an exit woumd, but sometimes things don't happen as expected.

TBBC's are great bullets, to bad Speer thought they were gold!

You make some very good points!

Good job Jason. How's everything in Miledgevegas? Im glad someone is having good luck I've not had a chance to sit in a stand yet.

A lot of nonsense gets written on the internet... this takes the nugget of the month prize.

This is "strange" bullet performance to those who have not seen it, if they grew into hunting with guilding metal,thin jackets and antimony cores, both brittle and which shatter,giving rise to the notion that bullet disintegration and weight loss and dispersed energy from little fragments is the only thing that kills BG animals...maybe true to a point.....just that this type performance isn't seen too often unless you use bonded bullets like the old Bitterroot Bonded Core,the TBBC(which is a BBC copy),the Swift Aframe,or a Northfork.

This is pretty typical for these heavily jacketed,bonded core bullets.(The old BBC's were so good they trade in black market-type circles at the price of cocaine.Part of this is because they are no longer made;but mostly it is because they work extremely well).

And there is nothing dated about their performance,because animals have not changed a whit since these bullets were developed.I have been shooting animals with the Bitterroots for over 30 years now...performance is similar to the OP's 140 TBBC.Likely the BBC would have retained about 90%+....and not because they make for good pictures! but because the retained weight assists in pushing the broad mushroom forward....the OP's bullet retains lots of shank,and broad mushroom, which is "good".

In fact I will make a flat statement and say this type of bullet performance has given me more one shot,lights out DRT's,and anchoring hits, than any other design on game from brown bear down through deer sized stuff;and more consistent and reliable BG performance than anything else I have tried.The reason is you get very rapid expansion (every time)to a broad frontal area,which makes nasty wound channels, and enough weight retention to retain momentum and push a broad mushroom through a lot of tissue,pulping it (what kills),making for wide wound channels.Chest cavities are frequently pulped beyond recognition, especially when impact velocities are high;and off side shoulders are always smashed.Animals simply go nowhere with this type bullet placement and performance.

I have recovered some, but contrary to much popular and conventional wisdom,they do exit very frequently,especially at distance as velocity falls off, and I have seen them make holes in brown bear and elk you could stick a fist in,especially in the larger calibers.I have also broken the shoulders of grown up bull elk with 165 gr 30's started at 3250 from a 300 Win Mag....no recovered bullet;it exited.The last 160 gr BBC 7mm I fired at an elk traveled the full length of its' neck from behind and we recovered it under the jaw;it smashed vertebrae and pulped muscle along the way....expansion was over 60 caliber and retained weight still over 150 gr IIRC. It is here somewhere...


I doubt there is an expanding bullet made that can be reliably counted upon to exit every time.I don't use them myself,but pals have shown me enough Barnes X's recovered from game to demonstrate that where impact vels are high,or where they retain the petals,it seems they,too, will be recovered.

The only reason the OP's bullet did not exit,is because the rubbery hide on the off side stopped the broad mushroom...between where it entered,and where it stopped,there was a train wreck....no "trail",blood or otherwise,was needed.

I would not hesitate in the least to use the OP's rifle and load on anything commonly hunted in North America for which the 280 is suited. That includes elk, moose,and grizzly.YMMV.

I am one who always wants full penetration (hole in-hole out) and over the years have found that certain things make this goal diffecult.

First is to use too light a bullet. The 140 grain bullet in the .284 caliber is a mid-range, bordering on a light-for-caliber bullet weight. Second is excess velosity. In my experience any velosity much above 3000 fps invites underpenetration (mostly enough to kill well, but may not exit). In this case the short range and high initial velosity meant a striking speed very near that level. A lightly constructed bullet can make penetration iffy even with proper velosity and weight. In this case the bonded bullet did NOT have this handicap.

Due to the high velosity, close range and light bullet.....I believe that 1 out of 5 or 6 bullets not exiting was pretty much what to expect. The bullet performed perfectly....as well as could be expected. If that same shot were taken (with a similar designed bullet) with say a 160 grain bullet at 2850-2900 fps I'd expect that a pass through would be almost guaranteed (bullets do strange things so no combination will ALWAYS work).

The design of the bullet is not the problem. As some others have pointed out, even the "solid" bullets fail to exit when velosities are driven to extreem levels. In fact, the tendancy of most to try to shoot the lightest possible bullet at the highest possible speed when using the "solids" (alphabet bullets) makes a pass througb possibly MORE likely at extreemly close range.

I really like the bonded bullets in general (Trophy Bear Claws and A-Frames are favorites) and this is Text book performance. As to the mono-metal "solids" I place them in the same class as steel shot in shotguns.....a gimic created by anti-hunting groups to hurt our sport.

I would say you pretty much covered it with this post. Breaking both shoulders, not fragmenting into nothing, DRT, bullet found just under the hide, all this with a light for caliber bullet, looks like fine performance to me. I'd stick with it.

I disagree. I have 3-4 recovered bullets from deer. 2 from raking shots that were found in the hide after passing through the offside shoulder. Both from a .30-06 165gr/core lokt. One last year from a 140gr Federal Fusion out of a .280 Rem that that hit the on side shoulder and traveld about 18" up the spine and I recovered it in the hide on the neck on the oposite side. All perfect mushrooms. I have shot about 25 other deer with no recovered bullets that produced the same results.

The other one is a core from a core lokt that I recovered in the ham of a doe on a facing shot from a 180gr core lokt in a .308 Win.

All deer were dead and all but the doe dropped on the spot.

I'm another in the camp of desiring/demanding an exit. You can not depend on any load making an animal drop on the spot unless you break the spine. If he moves off, a blood trail is very nice to have.
But, if it can break both shoulders, then I see no problem. I mean, where is the critter going to go ? He'd have to push himself with his hind legs which isn't going to move him very far or very fast.
I like my bullets to exit, or break at leat one shoulder and penetrte the chest. Or shoot diagonially, hip to shoulder through to the vitals.
It's pretty clear this bullet is up to the job. I've used them myself in the .308 on deer. The latest designs both shoot better at targets and at the longer ranges. E

It's gotta come close.

Geez, don't you guys know anything? 21st-century animals don't die unless the bullet exits. I've run into big game all over North America and Africa with just one hole in their chests, happily eating and drinking and mating as if nothing had happened.

One question that occasionally occurs to me: How do we know how much weight an unrecovered bullet retained?

Dead deer. No tracking required. What's the problem? Every ft-lb of energy was expended INSIDE the critter, so what if there's no exit wound; Jason280's got venison.

I might be a little disappointed if the bullet didn't pass through the rib cage, but this was both shoulders. Looks good to me.

My most recent Barnes mono, pulled out of a cow caribou, 120 TSX 7mm-08.



A year previous, a moose hunt; 235 TSX, 375-350 Rem Mag.



Second from left was the very first Barnes mono I fired at an animal, a 225 grain XFB that which hit a broadside moose, the 340 Weatherby breaking big bones in both shoulders.

Anyone who can't kill an animal with a bullet retaining better than two-thirds of it weight is doing something(s) wrong. I see nothing that the TBBC did wrong that my saved monos did better.

My overall philosophy is dead is dead and the animal never knew the difference.

Having said that, I think TBBC's are great bullets and we are lucky today that we have so many great bullets to choose from. Are there some bullets you don't want to use on some game? Yes, but that is a whole other debate.

Anyway, I have been using Barnes TSX on elk, bear and deer for several years now with great success. I just happen to have one here I pulled from under the opposite shoulder skin of a 6x6 bull I shot. It was from my 300 wsm using 168 grains, the recovered bullet weighs 167 grains after a approx 250 yard shot.
I also have one here the shoulder of a black bear I shot with a 338 225 grain TSX at 50 yards.

Not that I think the TSX is the end all of bullets but while we are sharing I thought I would show a couple I have recovered.

I see the bullet-performance angst is still running at spring run-off levels!

I stopped using TBBCs when they changes the jacket formulation (accuracy issues) but never had a complaint about terminal performance -- even compared to the TSX.

(I've actually recovered more TSX / animal shot on average than TBBC / animal shot)

The one I do have is in the center of the middle group. It's a 130 gr .270 that went lengthwise through a buck antelope at 200 yds, breaking the right shoulder and left hip before coming to rest under the left leg hide.

FWIW, the 300gr .375 on the right "only" penetrated 6-8" of moose spine.....

Thanks for the pics!

Took the words out of my mouth. Breaking both shoulders, no core separation at short range with a briskly moving bullet, plus all the rest. If he shot the same bullet again at the same buck with just a slightly different angle, whose to say it wouldn't have broke both shoulders and poked all the way through. Not that it matters after taking out both shoulders and ruining the tissue in between. And if the buck had quartered towards him, chances are it would have broke the fore shoulder, traversed the chest cavity and exited the opposite side aft the other shoulder. As TexasRick pointed out, one rung up the bullet weight ladder and this thread probably wouldn't exist.

I've had consistent performance, using TBBC for about the last 9 or 10 years. Although this year's rifle is a 7mm, I use Federal 165 gr TBBC exclusively in my BAR 30-06, the only rifle I don't reload for. (I have a lifetime supply of the stuff.) It drops deer where they stand. The only exception out of 35-40 deer taken with this rifle being one rutting buck that I found 30 yards from where I shot him. I can't recall if I got pass throughs every time (when your not blood trailing, you kind of stop speculating about bullet performance), but if the deer is DRT, who needs two holes?

I have to say I am a real fan of 2 bullet holes, 1 in and 1 out-I read a lot of Elmer Keith when I was younger. However, I also love recovered bullets. Either way, you're a winner.

[/quote]"No, you CAN ask for better. Barnes, for example at 95-100% weight retention being the norm, and also never a separation of core etc, since there ain't one".

"Nice looking bullet mushroom, Glad you got a deer, got a picture of the buck"?


"If your textbook is old enough. Perfect performance, 1920-1980 style.

No exit wound when using a 280 on a mere deer? Sorry, not good enough. Not even sort of". [/quote]
Do you work in sales at Barnes or something? I like Barnes and a lot of other brands, but weight retention doesn't equal bullet effectiveness, there's more than one way to cleanly kill an animal with a bullet, but I'm sure you beg to differ which is fine and your right as an american to do so.

Damn, I'm just happy with a dead animal.

Now I've killed damn near very deer I've ever shot in my life with a Hornady .30 Cal 165 BTSP and a Ruger M77 MKII 30-06, minus my first deer and the one when I first got my M7 Mag 300 SAUM, (150gr Core-Lokt Ultra) the bullets were traveling around 2750 fps and I have yet to recover any of those bullets, all were complete pass-throughs including any buck I've shot,which was through the shoulders every time, and those cheap, crappy, core-losing, S.O.B. cnc bullets just bore right through, leave a tunnel the size of a tennis ball and a blood trail about three feet wide each time. What crappy performance huh? I sold that 30-06 to my brother and he still uses that load with the same boring (and disappointing) results. Since the second year I've owned the SAUM I use all kinds of different bullets, but I worked up a nice load w/Varget and the same cheap, crappy, unimpressive bullet in my 300 SAUM and it does the same thing out of that rifle, judging by the size of the wound tunnels, I'd say weight retention sucks and it's probably losing it's core while it's passing through as well. BTW, congratulations on getting a deer, your bullet looks good to me, I'd use it any day of the week.

Pass-throughs only help when it comes to arrows. Never understood how finding a bullet in a DEAD animal means it failed.

I don't either, ask safariman.

I've never used them in my rifle, but have witnessed one of my best hunting buddies use the 200-grain version out of their 300 Win. Mag. with good results.

nice performance in my book, any day of the week. DRT, sweet!

Yep,complete BS in my book.

All the bullet performance talk from bullets found in dead animals makes me scratch my head. I just wonder how people decimated wild game herds around the country through the 1800's and into the early 1900's with the guns and bullets they were using.

Bullet pics always generate a lot of talk. The OP had a good outcome with a classic looking recovered bullet. Evidently penetrating two shoulders at 88 yds. used up enough velocity for the off side hide to stop it. It happened to my cow elk last year at 165 yards with a 180 Partition out of a 300WSM.
Searched that hide for 10 minutes before I found the bullet all balled up in the fat against the offside hide.

Bobinnh: I love the term: "pulped up muscle". I can see it on a box of premiums: "Our bullets pulp more muscle than any other brand!"

Klik: Those TSX's from the cow caribou and moose look a little under performed. But you can't debate a full freezer!

Your free to shoot what you want. But I don't see the need to use a great premium like a TBBC on a deer or any other thin skinned game. Other cup and core bullets could "pulp up" muscle just as well!

Safariman:

Give it a rest and have a martini...in fact, pour one for me and we'll talk about the old days.

Not every bullet behaves like the last one; kind of like kids.

Shoot a round lead ball into an animal and you will understand real quick...not much for distance,but very nasty!

Big thaawwaack and lots of broken stuff....

Fixed. I'll join you both just to listen.

I would rather two holes than one but dead is dead. I tend towards heavy for caliber bullets myself but I don't have enough kills to have my own opinion on their superiority. I also like cheap, read Hornady/Speer cup and cores. Most of the shots I have had were less than 200 yards. My 444 marlin could take care of most anything within 200 yards but we chose to have multiple calibers because we can. All this bullet talk makes me hungry.

Perfect~!

Wow, never thought the pics would generate this much interest!

I've killed deer with pistols, bows, shotguns, rifles, and cars, and have seen them react in a lot of different ways. I've seen them drop after being hit with #1 buck from a 16ga, yet seen them run 100+ yards after being hit through the shoulders with a 7x57 140gr Partition. I've taken deer with Core-Lokts, Ballistic Tips, Partitions, Hi Shoks, Swift A-Frames, Power Points, TBBCs, etc, and they all seem to react differently. Majority of them, specifically on shoulder hits, drop in their tracks. However, last year, I shot two bucks with a 140gr Partitions out of a 7mm-08 that both ran a minimum of 75 yards. I recovered one of those bullets, and will post a pic if I can find it. If I remember correctly, it separated from the jacket and retained about 50% of its weight.

I used to hunt with a .308 loaded with Speer 165 Gr. RN Hot-Core bullets at about 2600 FPS . I was shooting deer high in the shoulder at this point in time . None of the deer I shot ever took another step ! The perfectly mushroomed bullet would be under the hide on the off side and both shoulders and the chest cavity would be pulp . I see nothing wrong with the animal absorbing 100% of the energy , as opposed to wasting any energy propeling the bullet out the back side and on through the woods . If Speer hadn't discontinued the 165 RN , I'd still be using it ! Guys used to say , with no exit wound they are hard to track , I didn't know why anyone would track a dead deer though ! I hunt with a .358 Win. most of the time these days , I'm getting exit wounds now , but the deer are still DRT !

By that reasoning, a 340 Weatherby is lacking when loaded with 225s, the Barnes mono version, on mere caribou? (We're talking <300 lb, deer-sized animals here as well.)



I have had a number of occasions when I've found fault with Barnes monos. This example, however, has not been one of them.

Once again someone posted good info and write up. Good gun,ammo,and performance. Thanks for sharing Jason.....anyone that has a negative comment about this bullets performance is just stupid and needs to set back and think about what's just come outa their mouth....or fingers.

Didn't read all the post so don't know what else has been said. My reply was toward the post stating the bullet wasn't all that good because he didn't get a exit on his DEAD deer.

I found a limited supply of 6mm TBBC (don't think they ever even cataloged that one). Hope to use them on deer with exactly the same type of performance.