24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
Hi Folks:

John Barsness's latest exclusive column, "BONDED BULLETS," is on its way to your Inbox. If you haven't received this or previous versions, simply send your email address to rickbin24hourcampfire.com, and request to be on board for future monthly columns.

Here are links to a few select previous columns:

"The Vagaries of Rifle Troubleshooting"

"Scope Height"

"Computer Ballistic Programs"

"Reloading Data"

"Triggers"

"Older Hunters, Smaller Rifles"

"Hunting Scope Magnification"

Don't forget to check out John's (and Eileen's grin) other stuff at http://www.riflesandrecipes.com.

Many thanks, as usual, John!


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
BP-B2

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,932
M
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,932
Thanks for the excellent article on "Bonded Bullets". Your usual insite is very much appreciated. From what you have written and your analysis I'm thinkin I should save my money and stay with C&C bullets.


Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!

They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038
J
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
J
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,038
I had a longer question, but it really comes down to this:
1. Would you prefer to load / hunt elk and moose with cup and core bullets (i.e. Nosler Ballistic Tips)?
2. Would you prefer to load / hunt elk and moose with bonded bullets (i.e. Nosler Accubonds)?
3. Do you not trust bonded bullets any more than cup and core bullets, so stick with solids or Partition type bullets?

Of course, this assumes you use Nosler bullets, both are readily available, etc. etc. I also believe that all above types of bullets have, and will, continue to kill elk and moose.

Thanks John. Excellent article, as always.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
joel,

To a certain extent the answer would depend on the bullet. Some of the Ballistic Tips are tougher than others, and so are some of the AccuBonds. Any of the "hunting" Ballistic Tips will kill elk neatly if put in the ribs, but the The 120 and 150 7mms, 180 .30's and 200 .338 Ballistic Tips are all a little stouter than average. Same deal with AccuBonds. The lighter, smaller-diameter models are designed more for deer than bigger game, while the larger ones will retain more weight. That said, the smallest AB I've used on elk-sized game is the 140-grain .270, and it worked fine.

In general I have grown very fond of bonded bullets for game larger than deer over the past few years, since they seem to kill quicker than monolithic bullets, either due to losing some weight or opening wider.

But I still use plenty of Partitions too; this year I took 13 big game animals (about average for me) and used Partitions on six of them, though four of the six were from one rifle (9.3x62) on a hunt in Africa. That's actually a higher percentage of Partitions than in most years anymore; I try to use a wide variety of bullets to see how they act on game.

I realize this is all kind of confusing, but there really is a lot of overlap in the performance of various types of bullets. There is no set performance level from any certain type of bullet. For instance, even Sierra GameKings vary quite a bit in the way they act on game, depending on weight, caliber and cartridge. The bigger GK's are designed considerably tougher than the lighter ones, as with many other bullets.



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 755
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 755
I think the author simply missed the main point of bonded bullets. It's not they are designed to be super bullets designed for super penetration and extreme weight retention. The point of bonding is simply to prevent cup and core separation which can be a problem with non-bonded lead core bullets. They do that VERY well as per their design. They're not designed to be monolith like.

Non-bonded I have recovered, this first one just last week;
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Bonded

[Linked Image]




Stand up and be counted, join a shooting sports organization
IC B2

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
M
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,910
No, I didn't miss the main point of bonded bullets.

Instead, MOST HUNTERS think that bonding a bullet turns it into some sort of super-penetrating bullet. That's why I wrote the article, to explain why that isn't so.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 755
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 755
I just looked at it again, and not a single word about cup and core separation. Are YOU sure you're not just as confused as MOST of the other hunters.


Stand up and be counted, join a shooting sports organization
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
M
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
M
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 44,710
From the article:

Quote
If you want to use a bonded bullet for lighter game, to make sure the jacket and core don't separate, you might want to use a lighter AccuBond, Remington Core-Lokt Ultra-Bonded, Speer DeepCurl or Swift Scirocco II.


Color emphasis added.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
Thanks for the article John--it was a good one.

I appreciated the continuum of expected expansion between various brands. I'll never get to shoot all of them extensively, but I can pick what I want based on your testing.

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,323
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,323
Hows come I never get these articles? I always have to wait for someone to post a link.


`Bring Enough Gun`
IC B3

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
The article seems to be aimed at hunters who want bullets that provide good penetration along with reliable expansion. Those attributes are often quantified as weight retention expressed as a percentage of the bullet's original weight and expansion expressed as a multiple of the bullet's caliber. These metrics in turn depend on the impact velocity and the medium through which the bullet passes.

Within the structural limits of a given bullet, the lower the impact velocity the less penetration and expansion, and the higher the velocity the more penetration and expansion. Assuming the target is a game animal the possibility of hitting bone before vitals has to be taken into account. Not knowing the range to the game animal in advance means the impact velocity can't be tightly specified, only assumed to be within some bounds.

The question then becomes one of engineering. What type of bullet construction offers good weight retention and expansion over the widest velocity range while dealing with the possibility of hitting bone before vitals? While under no illusions of magic bullets, many believe that bonded bullets best meet that criteria. A case can be made that partitioned bullets meet the criteria even better, but it's also the case that the further the center of mass is towards the back of a bullet the easier a bullet can be upset and deflected by bone.

I like the Tipped Trophy Bonded bullet. Note the lead core is toward the tip of the bullet, which moves the center of mass forward and helps resist upset during penetration. If not for bonding it's easy to see that weight retention would be less.

[Linked Image]

Shooting times has an article titled Predictability Is A Premium that covering a wide range of bullet types.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884
The tipped Trophy Bonded look awesome to me--probably about the ideal all-around design--but until they offer them to handloaders they aren't going to gain the kind of reputation that would sell more of them even in factory loads.

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
The following Tipped Trophy Bonded bullets were available from Federal last year, but have since been taken off the market.

Catalog number, Diameter, Grains
PB277TT1, 0.277, 130
PB277TT2, 0.277, 150
PB284TT1, 0.284, 160
PB284TT2, 0.284, 140
PB308TT1, 0.308, 180
PB308TT2, 0.308, 165
PB338TT1, 0.338, 200

Seems there's more profit is selling premium ammunition than in selling premium bullets to handloaders. Another bonded, core forward, tipped bullet is the Swift Scirocco II, and these bullets are available to handloaders.

[Linked Image]

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 85,981
Campfire Oracle
Offline
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 85,981
Originally Posted by orion03
Hows come I never get these articles? I always have to wait for someone to post a link.

Make sure Rick has your email to get these e-articles.
Here's the intro:
BONDED BULLETS
by John Barsness

MANY HUNTERS FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT "bonding" transforms an ordinary bullet into a Super-Bullet, able to penetrate tall buildings in a single bound. Some of these hunters also apparently believe there's a Bonded Board of Standards, which meets regularly (perhaps in Kansas City) to ensure that every bonded bullet acts exactly like its magical counterparts produced elsewhere. Or at least that's the conclusion that I've come to after years of hearing about what bonded bullets should and should not do from various wishful thinkers.


Hope it's OK to post that here.


If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli

American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,042
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 10,042
I've gotten previous columns but for some reason didn't get this one. I've sent an e-mail to Rick asking it be sent again and am patiently waiting...

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 338
R
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
R
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 338
It seems virtually impossible to pick the perfect bonded bullet for any application. Accuracy, penetration, hunting cover,game animal, particular rifle characteristics, local regulations and availability all play a role.

Even though I've hunted and reloaded for years, the current crop of bullets is bewildering and I go back and forth on my choice of one 9.3mm bullet to take on an African plains game hunt.

The real truth is probably any contemporary bullet will dothe job.



"Think about how stupid the average person is, and then think that half of the people are stupider than that" - George Carlin
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,987
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,987
Originally Posted by MacLorry
The following Tipped Trophy Bonded bullets were available from Federal last year, but have since been taken off the market.

Catalog number, Diameter, Grains
PB277TT1, 0.277, 130
PB277TT2, 0.277, 150
PB284TT1, 0.284, 160
PB284TT2, 0.284, 140
PB308TT1, 0.308, 180
PB308TT2, 0.308, 165
PB338TT1, 0.338, 200

Seems there's more profit is selling premium ammunition than in selling premium bullets to handloaders. Another bonded, core forward, tipped bullet is the Swift Scirocco II, and these bullets are available to handloaders.

[Linked Image]


If this is indeed their strategy I believe it is seriously flawed, and here's why:
For the most part those who buy factory ammunition do not handload. Conversely, for the most part those who handload do not buy factory ammunition. Offering bullets to handloaders would not negatively impact ammunition sales but would increase overall revenue. My one assumption is that the bullet plant has sufficient capacity to handle factory ammunition as well as bullet production. Revenue would increase and marginal costs would decrease.

Last edited by Pharmseller; 12/07/11.

Obey lawful commands. Video interactions. Hold bad cops accountable. Problem solved.

~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~

Member #547
Join date 3/09/2001
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 112
D
DZG Offline
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
D
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 112
I would just like to get the article. Each time an article comes out I e-mail Rick and ask for a copy and wait........Is there an easier way? Is it a secret? I am registered both here and Rifle Looney Newsletter. Am I just doing something wrong? Any help would be great.


Hunting is about everything you do before you pull the trigger.
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
My one assumption is that the bullet plant has sufficient capacity to handle factory ammunition as well as bullet production.


Whether your assumption is true or false Federal did offer these bullets as components in 2010, but no longer does so. Maybe demand was so low that sales didn't cover the cost of offering these bullets, in which case it's still true that there's more profit is selling premium ammunition than in selling premium bullets to handloaders.

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Originally Posted by DZG
I would just like to get the article. Each time an article comes out I e-mail Rick and ask for a copy and wait........Is there an easier way? Is it a secret? I am registered both here and Rifle Looney Newsletter. Am I just doing something wrong? Any help would be great.


I sometimes find the e-mail in my Spam box as it does look like Spam to the filter software.

Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
206 members (12344mag, 160user, 257 roberts, 257robertsimp, 257 mag, 10Glocks, 20 invisible), 1,870 guests, and 864 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,728
Posts18,400,787
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.072s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9068 MB (Peak: 1.0670 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 10:28:09 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS