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Not being a hunter I have no first hand experience but from my readings I would say at least three writers, since Jack O'Connor specifically said he didn't see any difference in his experience, and I believe Finn Aagaard said much the same thing, IIRC, which makes four writers.

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Originally Posted by BobinNH
I have no basis for comparison other than anecdotal... African animals have a "well deserved reputation" for being tougher than North American game


Hey, what the heck...I'll give it a whack.

Since we are talking anecdotal I will share a few I was graced to hear.

Anecdote One: "Many African animals have a hump. Shooting one of those animals at "the Equator" will result in a high lung shot. Hitting them slightly above the Equator will miss the lungs. In either case, the animal will produce a poor blood trail and take a long-to-very long time to die."

Anecdote Two: "Many African animals are herd animals. They will run with the herd until they fall over. Not like a White tail deer which might scurry off 75 yards and bed down. The herd they run with will churn up the trail and make even a generous blood trail an iffy thing"

Anecdote Three: "You pull the trigger and the tracker finds one molecule of hemoglobin, and you punch the tag and pay the freight."

I don't have the checkbook to hunt Africa. But if I did I would invest at least a couple of hours in learning where the heart/lungs were on any species I was likely to encounter.

As a side note....I just finished a magazine article in one of my son's magazines. The 'hunter' was shooting at dark blobs in the brush (at the advice of his PH). The PH said, "The Cape Buffalo is facing left" and the "hunter" shot sort of into the left side of the center of mass. A two day tracking job resulted. Several more shots were launched into dark blobs in the brush. Crap! That is only slightly less reprehensible than "sound shots" into the brush over here. No wonder African game is hard to kill with firearm short of a Browning Machine Gun in .50 BMG.

Shaking my head in wonder.


Last edited by JoeMama; 01/01/12. Reason: spellin'

I am a conservative with a lowercase "c".
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Rick,

Put me on the list. My e-mail address is tturpincox.net. I'd like to get a copy of John's "bonded bullets" piece. I'm hesitant to wade in before reading it.

Thanks. Good seeing you again in Vegas.

Tom

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Tom,

I'll send it myself.

I missed seeing you in Vegas--but didn't miss Vegas! Hope you are doing well.


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John,

Got it, many thanks. Now I have to digest it. Yep, I knew you weren't going to be at SHOT. I'm not exactly sure why I went? I did see Rick several times though, along with the usual assortment of colleagues. We missed you, but I think you were the smart one.

All is well here.

TT

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Thanks John.

Pleasure seeing you too, Tom, as usual. I hope you didn't catch the bug! I'm still not myself.



"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
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Tom,

Would be very interested in your take on the article.

We have to get together somewhere where 50,000 people around the world aren't spreading germs--and where Scotch whisky prevents infection!


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Originally Posted by Winchestermodel70


African animals have a deserved reputation for being tougher than North American game. Go on safari and judge for yourself.


Big tough animal, little .260.

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John,

I agree that a meeting place somewhat less congested than Las Vegas, NV would be far preferable.I particularly like your "preventative" from disease. Now I know why I never get sick! And Rick, I didn't catch anything in Vegas, and John just explained why.

To the saga of bonded core bullets and my experience with them. I first became acquainted with them in about 1974 or so. I was in Alaska at the time, with the military. A friend that I met there introduced me to Bill Steigers Bitterroot bullets. Mountain View Sports Center, a sporting goods store I frequented often, had a small stock of them for sale. As I recall now, twenty bullets cost around ten bucks. I bought a few and tried them. I found them to be superior in every way to the bullets that I had been using, mainly cup and core bullets. Until I found the Bitteroot, the Nosler Partition was the best bullet on the market that I had found. I've been using mostly bonded core bullets ever since then for my hunting. When the Barns X bullets came out, I tried them. Their performance in most rifles was very good, but not as spectacularly deadly as bonded core bullets. That changed a bit when Barnes came out with the TSX bullets. In my experience, TSX bullets performed considerably better than the original X bullets. I've used quite a few of them on game and they kill well. I've experienced very few "bang-flops" with them though. Still, I've not lost an animal that was shot with a TSX, nor have I had much of a tracking job. I've used several Swift A-Frame bullets with complete satisfaction. I have not tried any Scirocco or Scirocco II bullets on game. I've found them very accurate in my rifles at the range. I shot one animal with a Nosler Accubond, and didn't like them at all. I was using a 140 grain 7mm bullet in a 7mm Dakota rifle. That bullet performed about like a hand grenade. I shot a B&C pronghorn with it and the results were devastating. I even had to get another cape to get it mounted (from a frontal chest shot).

In fairness, it was from a very early lot of bullets, and I was driving it pretty fast out of the 7 Dakota chambering. It is my understanding that the bullet has been improved since it first came out, but I've not tried it again on game. Most likely, had I used it in a 7x57, or even 280, it would have done well. However, with all the excellent bullets available, I've not gone back and tried them again.

I've used Hornady Interbond bullets on a few game animals, mostly Coues deer and pronghorns, and they have performed very well. I used Norma Oryx bullets (180 grain 30-06) on a trip to Namibia, and they performed very much like a Bitterroot, that is to say exceedingly well. On a trip to Tanzania, I chose to use Barnes TSX bullets (165 grain 30-06) on a EA impala, Grant's gazelle, and a zebra. They did the job very nicely.

All in all, I find nothing to argue about in your piece. I agree that simply bonding the core to the jacket will not turn a poor bullet into a super one. I do think that it will turn a poor bullet into a better one though. As someone has already written, it will keep the core from separating from the jacket, at a minimum.

I have accumulated pretty much a lifetime supply of the original Bitterroot bullets, although I don't use them very often anymore. There are so many good bullets available to us today, I don't have to dig into my stash. I'll probably leave them to my kids.

TT

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Tom,

Thanks for your experiences. I'm gonna send you a private message about something pertinent.


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I have taken many animals in Africa and north America and toughness is something I have heard for years but it is really just what a person has seen personally. For me the caribou and moose are not tough, bull elk are a different story. Black bear are not overly tough but griz and brownies seem to take more lead. In Africa the animal that sticks out as tougher than elk or any other animal is cape buffalo. I have personally shot quite a few pushing 20 with a number of different calibers and they are tough with any gun. Yes I have had some just go down after short run but many last Long enough to kill you even hit right through the heart. The worst performing bullet I have seen on buffalo is the 300 grain nosler partition 3 total failures but I have not seen this with plains game with 7 mm's or any of the normal rifles. I have not ever seen a TSX fail on anything and have shot jackal's that literally exploded, I have also shot leopards with them and they were devastating. The one thing I have noticed is reaction when an animal is hit with TBBC and north forks and swifts, it seems to rock them more than the TSX and I am saying I don't know why but it is noticeable. I have seen the VLD's slam some animals and some acted untouched until they died but they were dead. My conclusion is it is a strange argument because everyone has seen all fail in their minds but it is strange they always have pictures recovered from dead animals. The buffalo I saw had to shot and killed with another bullet and after examination found they may have lived from their wounds long enough to hurt a lot of people.that is the only animal other than elephant I would not shoot with a partition otherwise I am confident in using them on anything else if that's what I had but given a choice I will take a TSX or north fork as my first choice.

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I could use a few more Bitterroots in 338 and 375! I recently went back through a bunch of correspondence with Bill and re-read the bullet test for the 375 H&H that Andy Tillman finished in 1982, very good stuff.


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If you're Bike Trials taking an extended trip by rail Bike Trial Seller special meals they have available Bike Store for people with Diabetes Bike Shop pass before continuing on

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Why is this individual still on this forum??? Most message boards would have banned this user in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by tsquare
John,

I agree that a meeting place somewhat less congested than Las Vegas, NV would be far preferable.I particularly like your "preventative" from disease. Now I know why I never get sick! And Rick, I didn't catch anything in Vegas, and John just explained why.

To the saga of bonded core bullets and my experience with them. I first became acquainted with them in about 1974 or so. I was in Alaska at the time, with the military. A friend that I met there introduced me to Bill Steigers Bitterroot bullets. Mountain View Sports Center, a sporting goods store I frequented often, had a small stock of them for sale. As I recall now, twenty bullets cost around ten bucks. I bought a few and tried them. I found them to be superior in every way to the bullets that I had been using, mainly cup and core bullets. Until I found the Bitteroot, the Nosler Partition was the best bullet on the market that I had found. I've been using mostly bonded core bullets ever since then for my hunting. When the Barns X bullets came out, I tried them. Their performance in most rifles was very good, but not as spectacularly deadly as bonded core bullets. That changed a bit when Barnes came out with the TSX bullets. In my experience, TSX bullets performed considerably better than the original X bullets. I've used quite a few of them on game and they kill well. I've experienced very few "bang-flops" with them though. Still, I've not lost an animal that was shot with a TSX, nor have I had much of a tracking job. I've used several Swift A-Frame bullets with complete satisfaction. I have not tried any Scirocco or Scirocco II bullets on game. I've found them very accurate in my rifles at the range. I shot one animal with a Nosler Accubond, and didn't like them at all. I was using a 140 grain 7mm bullet in a 7mm Dakota rifle. That bullet performed about like a hand grenade. I shot a B&C pronghorn with it and the results were devastating. I even had to get another cape to get it mounted (from a frontal chest shot).

In fairness, it was from a very early lot of bullets, and I was driving it pretty fast out of the 7 Dakota chambering. It is my understanding that the bullet has been improved since it first came out, but I've not tried it again on game. Most likely, had I used it in a 7x57, or even 280, it would have done well. However, with all the excellent bullets available, I've not gone back and tried them again.

I've used Hornady Interbond bullets on a few game animals, mostly Coues deer and pronghorns, and they have performed very well. I used Norma Oryx bullets (180 grain 30-06) on a trip to Namibia, and they performed very much like a Bitterroot, that is to say exceedingly well. On a trip to Tanzania, I chose to use Barnes TSX bullets (165 grain 30-06) on a EA impala, Grant's gazelle, and a zebra. They did the job very nicely.

All in all, I find nothing to argue about in your piece. I agree that simply bonding the core to the jacket will not turn a poor bullet into a super one. I do think that it will turn a poor bullet into a better one though. As someone has already written, it will keep the core from separating from the jacket, at a minimum.

I have accumulated pretty much a lifetime supply of the original Bitterroot bullets, although I don't use them very often anymore. There are so many good bullets available to us today, I don't have to dig into my stash. I'll probably leave them to my kids.

TT


Great post and interesting read.... Reading what Tom had to say about BBC's years back, here and there,used in his 270,confirmed what I had seen with them as well. I accumulated a lifetime supply also and continue to use them.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Read Mule Deer's article on "bonded bullets" out of my old issue of Handloader (or was it Rifle) again last night. Bob, you are downright famous!!! cool


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Geezus.....LOL! blush grin

That weren't me....! smile




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Does a north fork expand wide like an interbond?


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No. It's more like a Barnes TSX, but with more a uniform mushroom and not 4 "petals."


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This might seem like a dumb post but when I was a young bloke I thought I would conduct a penetration test of my own. I shot a variety of bullets from my 308 Win into a box of moist earth.

Now I soon learned that this is way too harsh of a medium to test bullet performance, but I did learn something.

The bullets included Hornady Interlocks, Remington Core Lokts, Nosler Accubonds and some Pro-Hunters. Unsurprisingly, fired from a distance of 10 yards they were all blown apart, torn to shreds.

Now like I said this turned out to be one of those not-so-well-thought-out things you do when you are young and inquisitive, and didn't return much in the way of meaningful results. But of nothing else it taught me one thing; if you push any bullet beyond it's design parameters, it will fail, bonded or not.

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