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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If an A-Frame were to walk on water, some would say "yeah, that's because it can't swim"...
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Campfire Outfitter
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I don't agree with that. However to make a comment that they are superior to the partition is both ignorant of the two designs and flat out wrong.
Likewise with deploring the partitions loss of the front core while doting on the CEB which is designed to do the same thing. And incidentally it was designed this way to help it kill better than a Barnes...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Did I ever post a picture of the deer I got on the way to the range? ![[Linked Image]](http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Deer/bigbuck2.jpg)
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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"Dudes" you mean like the owner of the site with more that 200 buffalo to his credit, or do you mean the myriad PHs who post there? Are there "dudes" ( I guess I'm one of those) who post there? of course. Here's a picture of a recovered Partition (on the right) having lost it's front core (yes, from a dead buffalo). A Frame won't do that, it's an "improved" Partition. ![[Linked Image]](http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w55/465H-H/DSC_0123.jpg) And here's the link to the thread from hell. Plenty of dead animal and tissue analysis by vets as well. link Dude! NPt's are supposed do that--it's the reason they perform well across the widest range of velocities--at least in my experience. Besides, one of your A-Frames is kinda' weirdly shaped like an "A". I just hope it didn't boomerang back at you......... Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What was the original question? 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What was the original question?  A question often asked on Campfire threads! Casey
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,499
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Ray, did the bullet exit?
BTW the Partition Gold has been dead for a long, long time. You're out of the loop by a fair piece No. For some reason it turned to very small pieces of both lead and jacket. I imagine that probably hit a rib going in and expanded too fast. But I don't see a problem, since it destroyed the moose's lungs. If I well remember, Federal loaded the 250-grain NOS HE around 2800fps, and a 225-grain TBBC HE around 2900fps. I used the 250-grainer to kill the moose, and still have a few left of both loads. Most people favor the factory .338 loads with NOS 250-grainers loaded around 2650 or so fps. I have settled with the 225-grain 3-Shock (now TTSX), not because I don't like the Partition, but because it's a tough bullet.
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Campfire Regular
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One thing that seems lost on some of you is the fa t that the partition is designed to blow off the front core. It is also worth pointing out that there isn't much and in some cases no differance in penetration between a mono metal and a partition, yet the partitions will kill faster IME. That's true, and that's the reason why I use tougher bullets such as the A-Frame, and now the TTSX. I have shot moose through the lungs with the 250-grain partition (the Federal HE load), and as I mentioned before it broke to pieces inside the moose, probably because it was driven too fast. But the same bullet loaded around 2660 fps and shot through the lungs of the same moose would have done exactly what you said. I shot another moose with the old Lubalox-coated 230-grain FS, and the moose dropped like hit by lightning, simply because it broke the near shoulder and cut through the heart arteries as it passed though the lungs. I shot another with a 225-grain TSX from around 125 yards, and it dropped right there. I haven't shot anything with the TTSX, but I am certain that it has the potential of killing just as well as other bullets as long as I do my part. Call me chicken if you like, but in bear country I want tough bullets I can depend on to break bone if needed. That said, I understand that each one of us for whatever reason has one or two favorite bullets, and arguing about which one is best makes no sense. As for me, I prefer mid-weight bullets that retain more of their weight: 225 to 250-grain A-Frame, 225-grain to 250-grain TTSX. I also wouldn't mind using a 250-grain Partition, or even a 250-grain to 300-grain Woodleigh, but the 225-grain TSX is the best all around hunting bullet for me. How do you know the partition blew up? How? Because of the very small pieces of lead and jacket all over the inside of the moose. It did kill the moose fast enough, so I am not complaining about that. Maybe the 250-grainer loaded at 2800 fps was too fast? I don't really know, except that it expanded too fast. I still have around 10 rounds of the 250-grain NOS HE, but don't want to hunt with them in bear country. All I am saying is that I prefer another controlled-expansion bullet that is designed to retain a lot more of its weight than the partition. Now, the Partition Gold is supposed to do that (it is tougher), but I haven't use it. So in all actuality the bullet functioned exactly as it should have... What you are saying is you prefer a bullet that does less internal damage and kills slower. Whatever floats your boat.. No. That's you imagining that I have said such. How many times do I have to tell you that I want a bullet that is tough enough to retain most of its weight after expanding in accordance to its design? I have also said that a 250-grain Partition Gold should also be tougher than a Partition, and is designed to retain more of its weight, but I haven't used it because I don't need to. I am not even using the A-Frame anymore.
Last edited by Ray; 04/14/16.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Why not just use a solid then?
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The one that is bent isn't a Swift. Looks to be a Nosler flat point solid that hit some major bone.
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Why not just accept the fact that some of us prefer other bullets than your beloved Noslers? We get along just fine with our "flying bricks"'and other designs you seem to look down your nose at, given your vast hunting experience.
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Campfire Regular
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Why not just use a solid then? Why should I use any other bullet than the one I want to use, which is the Barnes TTSX? And yes, these folks talk about bullets that are even better than the TTSX for their type of hunting, but I am happy with my choice of bullet. http://www.northforkbullets.com/images/African%20Hunter%20Article.pdf
Last edited by Ray; 04/14/16.
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Jorge,
There are differences in the way Nosler Partitions and Swift A-Frames do their job, but they are more varied than you suggest, and often more subtle.
First, penetration is at least as related to frontal area of the mushroom as weight retention, which is exactly why A-Frames don't penetrate any deeper, on average, than Nosler Partitions or equal weight and diameter. This is especially true of heavier, larger-caliber Partitions, which have the partition moved forward so they'll retain more weight. Nosler designs them to retain at least 75% of their weight, even if they lose the front core, but if they do retain some core they normally retain about as much weight as A-Frames.
Second, the shape of the mushroom also has considerable effect on the wound channel. If flat or "cupped" (like a Partition that's lost its front core) damage from cavitation is increased considerably beyond the diameter of the bullet. This is why flat-nosed or cupped solids do more internal damage than round-nose solids, but also applies to expanding bullets. A-Frames end up with a rounded mushroom, which creates a hole in vital tissue almost totally due to the wide diameter of the expanded bullet. Partitions damage considerable tissue too, but more of it results from slightly more "shrapnel" and a flat/cupped mushroom.
Third, apparently the vast majority of shooters aren't aware that only the FRONT end of A-Frames is bonded. The rear end isn't, which is why the rear half often bulges widely when the bullet hits larger bones, or even softer tissue at close range. This also reduces penetration, but helps makes a bigger hole.
The jackets of Nosler Partitions are made of gilding metal, which is harder than the pure copper of A-Frames, and the jacket over the rear core is thicker as well. Consequently it's rare to see a recovered Partition with even a slight bulge in the rear core, and I have yet to find one where the rear core punched through the partition, but have seen that with the occasional A-Frame.
Both are great bullets, but the A-Frame cannot be simply termed an "improved" Partition, because of the several other differences, especially in materials and jacket thickness. Partitions work in other ways that affect both penetration and wound channel, far more than merely bonding the front core. I know this because I've tested a bunch of both in various kinds of media, including animals. Mule Deer, I can't argue with you, simply because I don't nor will I ever have the experience you have about bullets. However, of all the articles from the supposedly experts about bullets versus penetration, just about all say that the A-Frame out-penetrates the Partition because it retains more of its weight. Every article I read is similar to this one: http://www.fieldandstream.com/node/1005010717
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'd stick a Partition or Bitterroot in a 300 Weatherby and just go hunting. I did the same things when I had 225 BBC's,225 partitions and a 338. And if I did not have BBC's i'd grab a NF, TTSX, or TBBC and have at it. Bullets have changed some but the animals haven't...we haven't reinvented the wheel when it comes to bullets but it's been refined.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Dude! That's not an A Frame!, it's a Nosler solid. I think I have a "little" hunting experience with Partitions (used them on one Safari and numerous hunts over here0, but that jacket separation is the LAST thing you want when hunting large, dangerous game with thick skin. When it sheds the core like that, yes it does produce tissue damage, but the rapid weight loss also impedes penetration (as numerous examples show)... dude.
Last edited by jorgeI; 04/14/16.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,584
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,584 |
And that'll about cover flybys... (guess the movie)..
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,054
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Ray,
Petzal apparently believes (as many people do) that weight retention is the ONLY factor in bullet penetration, and it isn't. Frontal area of the mushroom is at least as important, and perhaps more so. This can easily be demonstrated by shooting various bullets of the same weight, diameter and muzzle velocity into the same media. But there are plenty of hunters who never get beyond a belief in sheer weight retention.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
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It would depend on the bullet construction I would think, John. That extensive and well "protocoled" test on AR more than proved this that included many variables such as bullet construction, metal composition and "designed disintegration" as in the case of the CEBs.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,054
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Jorge,
If blowing off the front end off "impedes penetration," I have somehow been lucky enough not to see it matter, after witnessing around 200 Nosler Partitions take big game animals over the decades. Here are a few examples:
A 400-grain .416 I put just behind the ribcage of a running-away Cape buffalo ended up in the shoulder on the opposite side. A 150-grain from a .270 Winchester did the same thing to a quartering-away bull moose here in Montana.
A 100-grain .25 from a .257 Roberts broke the right hip of a pronghorn buck and ended up in the left shoulder.
A 140-grain from a 7x57 placed in the middle of the chest of a facing mule deer buck was found in one of the round steaks from the rump.
A 180-grain from a .30-06, shot at a big bull kudu standing on a steep hillside 350 yards above me, broke the near shoulder joint and the spine before ending up under the hide on top of the far shoulder.
A 225 from a .338 Winchester Magnum broke the right shoulder joint of a huge bull musk ox and ended up at the rear of the ribcage on the other side.
Those are ALL Partitions recovered with NO front core remaining intact. Numerous others probably lost their front cores but exited. Among those were a 200-grain from a .300 Winchester I put into the big shoulder joint of a 6x6 bull elk at only 75 yards, so the bullet hit at almost muzzle velocity. It smashed the joint, traversed the chest, and exited at the rear of the ribcage on the other side.
Aside from all those examples, as I pointed out in another post the Partitions over .30 caliber have the partition moved forward, and are designed to retain about 75% of their weight even if the entire front core disappears. It rarely does, but even then they continue penetrating. A good example is the 286 9.3mm that broke the big shoulder joint of a big blue wildebeest almost facing me at 200 yards, and was found under the hide of the opposite flank, maybe a foot in front of the ham--without the front core, retaining 74.1% of its weight.
Now, Nosler Partitions are by no means the only premium bullet I use, but I have used more of them any other because they've been around longer, and were the only one readily available when I started feeling the need for deeper penetration in the mid-1970's, when I was hunting elk in the thick, steep Montana mountains near the Idaho Panhandle. Back then the 200-grain .30 was a "semi-spitzer," which didn't matter where ranges were normally under 100 yards. Dunno if they lost the front core, but don't really care, because they exited everything, including a mule deer buck weighting at least 300 pounds shot lengthwise. I've used the 200 Partition to take more elk than any other bullet, and would use it on 99% of the big game animals on earth.
I have since used numerous other premium bullets considerably, including the A-Frame and both versions of the Swift Scirocco; Barnes X's from the plain original version through blue-coated XLC to the TSX and TTSX; Speer Grand Slams; Hornady Interbonds and GMX's; Norma Oryxes; North Forks; Trophy Bondeds from Jack Carter's original model to the latest tipped, nickel-plated, grooved-body version by Federal. Have even used Nosler AccuBonds on animals from deer to a grizzly bear, and have taken over two dozen animals from springbok and pronghorn to blue wildebeest and 6-point bull elk with E-Tips. Would quite happily use the vast majority again.
Some have out-penetrated Partitions, though not by all that much, though some definitely punch through the hide on the far side better. And there are certain Partitions I wouldn't use for shooting 500+ pound animals lengthways, if that seems necessary, but there some I would use for that purpose--and have, successfully, including the 200-grain .30 and the 250-grain .338.
You might also be interested to know that Phil Shoemaker tested a bunch of .30 caliber bullets for penetration a few years ago, and the the 220-grain Partition won. Dunno if any lost the front core, but based on experience doubt it mattered. You'll have to ask Phil, but he's busy right now, getting ready for the spring brown bear season.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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