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Originally Posted by Esox357
Don't know much about the army? I have heard rumors that certain SF units in the Army do carry 45's? Don't know just a rumor, as for the rest of the Special Operations yes dependent on mission and preference they get what they want. A pistol is the least concern as it is a defensive weapon and not the primary weapon! I knew of one army ranger that while in Africa one of his troops carried two 357 magnums while being deployed, this was during the vietnam era. I tend to believe this to be true.


The .45s are pretty much gone, except for some in USMC use. The so called MEU(SOC) pistols, and Force Recon and MARSOC are supposed to still have some. Rangers have M9s and G22s now.

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Originally Posted by Esox357
I knew of one army ranger that while in Africa one of his troops carried two 357 magnums while being deployed, this was during the vietnam era. I tend to believe this to be true.


Yeah, way back when. Clinton made that against the UCMJ.

Don't know what units but I did see a few guys with G17's running around Camp Victory in 05

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Clinton was a moron when it came to military policy all the way around. I wouldn't doubt it. I know their are official designated sidearms and unofficial sidearms. It happens.

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Originally Posted by Esox357
Clinton was a moron when it came to military policy all the way around. I wouldn't doubt it. I know their are official designated sidearms and unofficial sidearms. It happens.
When I worked the gun counter at Herman's Sporting goods back in the early 1980s, my boss (department manager) was a Vietnam vet who saw lots of combat. On quiet days, he'd sometimes tell us stories. One included his personal S&W Model 29 .44 Magnum, and using it to shoot Vietcong out of their positions up in trees.

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I tend to think the Glock just seems to thrive in an environment of abuse. If you put pistols in a test environment you tend to see very similar results with the top tier guns, that includes the Beretta. The problems come when the weapon becomes general issue for line soldiers; who are incredibly hard on equipment since they have no vested interest in them whatsoever. Pistols are not well documented as to how many round they�ve had through them, and maintenance (in the field) can be awfully spotty. Another hindrance to the Beretta (and Glock would have had the same problems) is the �developmental� aspect of learning what makes the pistol tick, and what kills it. Bad magazines and the learning curve of the locking block have really hurt the Beretta. Too bad, any idiot who actually knew a thing or two about handguns could have told you the locking block on the Beretta would be a wear part; just look at the history of the P-38.

Glock has had their share of issues, so had the Glock been chosen as the US service pistol, there�s no doubt it would have suffered in reputation just like the Beretta. One of the issues would have required replacement of all the frames; that�s a big deal. Most other issues would have been very easily dealt with since the Glock is so darned easy to work on.

The big problem with the M9 is the lingering doubts the end user had. Is this one TRULY up to date? How many round has that locking block had? Am I using an after-market magazine? Hand me a brand new M9 and I�d have a lot of confidence. Hand me an M9 out of inventory and I�m a bit concerned, and it will take more than a few rounds and weeks for me to have much confidence.

I really can�t stress the value of military service for a small arm, the learning curve is sharp, and the lessons learned are extremely valuable. There are very few small arms that have entered military service and had no significant issues. The 1911, BAR, and M1 Carbine are perhaps the most shining examples of trouble free service. The 1911 has not required any meaningful changes in manufacturing or design, the BAR, while requiring good maintenance to remain reliable, didn�t require much in the way of changes to manufacturing or materials. The M1 Carbine is truly amazing because not only did it never have any issues, but the whole project went from drawing board to line service in less than a year. The M1 Carbine also featured a whole new gas system that hadn�t really been tried before; truly amazing.

So weapons that just enter service and work perfectly are the exception, not the rule.

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Carrying a privately-owned weapon was against the UCMJ well before Clinton was in office, but different commanders would allow different degrees of latitude.

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Originally Posted by Mesabi
Carrying a privately-owned weapon was against the UCMJ well before Clinton was in office, but different commanders would allow different degrees of latitude.


You are wrong, it was not against the UCMJ prior to Clinton. Yes, commanders did have the authority to say no to POW's prior to that and any lawful order carried the force of law but they no longer have that option to allow it.

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Perhaps I mis-spoke in saying "UCMJ" rather than Army Regs and General Orders, but please tell me what part of the UCMJ Clinton changed that concerns POWs.

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Originally Posted by KevinGibson


The big problem with the M9 is the lingering doubts the end user had.


No. Not even close. The problem with the M9 is that it is a heavy chunk of steel chambering a wimpy round.

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Originally Posted by dla
Originally Posted by KevinGibson


The big problem with the M9 is the lingering doubts the end user had.


No. Not even close. The problem with the M9 is that it is a heavy chunk of steel chambering a wimpy round.


You're critique might carry more weight if you actually knew what it was made of.

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Originally Posted by dla
Originally Posted by KevinGibson


The big problem with the M9 is the lingering doubts the end user had.


No. Not even close. The problem with the M9 is that it is a heavy chunk of steel chambering a wimpy round.


"Wimpy round" sounds like a lingering doubt to me.


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Jamie, that's hilarious! Now I understand those Glock "ka-booms".

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Originally Posted by RyanScott
AWG issued the Glock 19.
ACE/CAG/Delta, Glock 19 and 22. With FDE magazines and a red dot for some of the 22s.

At that level some units have particular favorites. The Glock has a longer service life than the Sig BTW.


Long time service life has always been as issue with Sig's. The Glock beats them hands down there. I ran an indoor range (Kevin Gibson used to work there some too) and we had range guns for rental. We kept great records on the guns. The P220 never made it 20K without cracking in the frame....P226's rarely made 30K without one of the frame rails starting to peel. Glocks lasted 50K plus with no real issues. That said the Sig is a much more refined, accurate and reliable gun IMHO than the glock right out of the box, but not by much. I still would not hesitate to own or carry either gun.


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I have one of each and I always liked Sig better.

My son's service / duty gun is a SIG.


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Hawk

You will Love the P220.

That is what i have and mine has been 100% with all ammo.

I did put adjustable sights on it and it is very accurate.

BUT

My Gold Cup and Briley are a bit more accurate.


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I've had the 220 (2) and a 228 (.357 Sig). Glocks 23C, 27, 30, and my duty pistol the 17. Never liked the long pull trigger with the Sigs, and despised the trigger in the Glock until I was trained. As I grow older, I've found I don't like a heavy pistol and I don't like decockers, manual safetys, grip safetys, etc. I want something much like a DA revolver, where I can draw and shoot without worrying about the above. As for the accuracy issue, its as not important to me anymore than it used to be, and is plenty accurate for self defense. The Glock 17 has plenty of capacity, easy on the back, decent sight radius, and a ok trigger. Even with +P+ loads recoil is not objectionable.

Nothing is going to beat the way a 1911 feels in the hand or the pull or reset of a quality 1911 trigger. The Sig DA autos never felt good in my hand, but to be fair neither does the Glock. For me the best guns were a high end 1911, Browning Hi Power, and just about any S&W revolver chambered for .357 with at least 2.5 inch barrel. Each have their problems, and the Glock in my mind is the best for me right now. I haven't had a chance to play with the S&W MP series, or the XD. But I'm convinced a medium weight weapon with a high capacity, and with decent sights is the way to go. (My Glock 17 currently wears Trijicon night sights, and my 23C I'm going to install Trijicon's RMR sight.)

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Originally Posted by temmi
Hawk

You will Love the P220.

That is what i have and mine has been 100% with all ammo.

I did put adjustable sights on it and it is very accurate.

BUT

My Gold Cup and Briley are a bit more accurate.
Thanks. Looking forward to getting it.

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How long ago was that James ? I understand they SIG's have been tweaked and improved over the years. E

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Originally Posted by JamesDunn
Long time service life has always been as issue with Sig's. The Glock beats them hands down there. I ran an indoor range (Kevin Gibson used to work there some too) and we had range guns for rental. We kept great records on the guns. The P220 never made it 20K without cracking in the frame....P226's rarely made 30K without one of the frame rails starting to peel. Glocks lasted 50K plus with no real issues. That said the Sig is a much more refined, accurate and reliable gun IMHO than the glock right out of the box, but not by much. I still would not hesitate to own or carry either gun.
Yeah, I can back James up there; the Sigs didn't hold up like Rugers and S&W Gen 3's. Slides tended to crack just forward of the breech face, then the extra stress would pull the fram rails up and off. Now admittedly, this was back when the slides were stamped. Newer slides are completely milled and may be tougher.

Still, we're talking failue after a service life far beyond what most would put their guns through. Where longevity is concerned, I've yet to see anything match the Glock.

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