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When you get to Africa, try that combo out and let us know how it works for you. It's your safari. You pay your money and you take your chance.

The part of the NP that penetrates is the metal cased wadcutter that's left after the front portion comes apart. It acts like a small solid, where a TSX or A-Frame keeps chugging along with a larger than caliber mushroom at the front end. Essentially, an A-Frame is a partition with the front portion of the bullet jacket bonded to the core so it doesn't come apart.

African animals have a deserved reputation for being tougher than North American game. Go on safari and judge for yourself.

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Yes,bullet placement is the #1 component of a quick, clean kill, PROVIDING the bullet does it's job. Since you are (at least in your own mind) an expert in all matters relating to rifles, hunting, ammunition and optics, by all means continue to pontificate so the rest of us mere mortals can sit and listen in awe.


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Now that you've demonstrated what a douche bag you are, I can't wait for your next pronouncement.


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Wow.

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WinchesterModel70,

Naw, I'm not an expert in all things related to shooting and hunting, but I am continually learning, thanks to shooting animals with a wide variety of bullets.

I've used Nosler Partitions since the mid-1970's, back when they still had relief grooves and the jackets were turned, not extruded. I've shot over 100 big game animals personally with them, and seen at least that many more killed with Partitions by friends and family.

But they're not the only bullets I use, since part of my job is to test a wide variety of bullets both in various kinds of media and on game. In fact for most of the last decade I rarely used Partitions because there were so many new bullets introduced. I've been shooting Barnes X's of every generation since the late 80's, and have thoroughly tested just about every other "premium" bullet, including all the versions of Trophy Bondeds from Jack Carter's originals to the latest Tipped model; all the Swift bullets (including both the original Scirocco and SII); North Forks; Hornady Interbonds, GMX's and DGX's; Speer Grand Slams and DeepCurls; Remington Core-Lokt Ultras, etc. etc.

I also know the other Nosler bullets quite well, whether Ballistic Tips, AccuBonds or E-Tips. In fact I tested some prototype E-Tips on an African cull hunt in 2007, where almost 200 animals were taken over a month of shooting by me and my companions. I've also gone to New Zealand to thoroughly test Berger VLD's on a bunch feral goats and other game including red stags. Oh, and I also have shot several semi-loads of big game with "ordinary" bullets from Hornady, Remington, Sierra, Speer and Winchester. I always autopsy the animals myself, or watch it done when that isn't possible, as it sometimes isn't in Africa, to find out exactly how the bullets worked.

This year I used more Nosler Partitions than in any other year for the past decade, because I'd learned how those other bullets work--and didn't find any of them killed any better than the right Partition put in the right place. But even while using several Partitions from 6.5mm to .416, I also shot big game with Hornady Interbonds, Federal Fusions, Barnes TTSX's, Nosler Ballistic Tips, and Sierra ProHunters.

Over the years I've seen some very weird field results with some of the bullets you apparently regard as infallible, including repeated instances that would have to be considered total failures, but have yet to see that happen with hundreds of Nosler Partitions. I've also run into a bunch of hunters like you, who "know" all sorts of stuff without actually doing a lot of comparison testing. If you had, you might know as much as you think you do.


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I shot an eland one day with a .300 Win. Mag and a 150 ( yes...150...) grain NPT....

He seemed to die pretty dead....


Just sayin'....... whistle


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Yeah, that particular paragraph got my attention as well.

Unlike the WinchesterModel70, I have considerable experience both in Africa AND North America. As far as I can see there is no difference between shooting elk (generally considered the toughest North American hoofed game) and such medium-sized African "super-tough" animals as zebra, wildebeest and gemsbok.

All will fall nicely when hit in the right place with Nosler Partitions from cartridhes such as the .270, 7x57, 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06, etc. All will run a long way when poorly hit even with "new and improved" super-bullets from cartridges from the .300 magnums up.


I may not have the experience as JB here but this post is "good to go" in my eyes....dead on!

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Originally Posted by Winchestermodel70
When you get to Africa, try that combo out and let us know how it works for you. It's your safari. You pay your money and you take your chance.

The part of the NP that penetrates is the metal cased wadcutter that's left after the front portion comes apart. It acts like a small solid, where a TSX or A-Frame keeps chugging along with a larger than caliber mushroom at the front end. Essentially, an A-Frame is a partition with the front portion of the bullet jacket bonded to the core so it doesn't come apart.

African animals have a deserved reputation for being tougher than North American game. Go on safari and judge for yourself.


Thanks for the bullet lesson wink......I will keep it all in mind...

I have flung a Partition or two over the last 40+ years,in calibers from .25 to.375, in the direction of North American BG animals from Alaskan Brown bear down to coyotes,and am well familiar with the "wadcutter" effect....also the broken bones and deep, straight line penetration (farthest I've seen was from a 200 gr 30 cal Partition that went from just forward of the right ham of a large bull elk to the off side shoulder, breaking it and exiting).And as yet can't recover any 160 7mm's fired into shoulders of bull elk. Or could possibly relate similar experiences using them both out to longish ranges here,as well.

This performance may not be Africa worthy, I dunno.....I guess a mature bull elk sorta pales in the toughness department compared to African plains game....

If you could relate your own experience with the 7mm Magnum and Partitions, shooting African game with them,demonstrating the inadequacies, it would be helpful.Might save me some money when I get over there.....How many animals have you lost over there with a 7 mag and Nosler Partitions?

I could repeat the same experiences (maybe just as much)on the same type North American game with the Bitterroot Bonded Core in calibers from 270 to 375,of which the Aframe is a "copycat"....having lots of BBC's, I have had no need for an Aframe, which is a great bullet, but have not gotten around to my stash, beause anything the Aframe will do, so will the Bitterroot, and maybe "better", but who knows?I think Lee Reid had the BBC in mind when he worked out the Aframe.You may or may not know this... Figure I will stick to the original until I run out.....

Another aside, but a Barnes X, TSX, or TTSX will also shear off those frontal petals under the stress of high velocity impact, giving the same "wadcutter" effect as a Partition.....but of course you knew this, too. wink

As to the toughness of African game,as noted I have no basis for comparison other than anecdotal;but based on the opinions of some pretty worthy gents who have(I will bet)a lot more combined experience than you on both North American, and African game(and a lot of it with Partitions and 7 mags) in such flimsy performers as the 7 mag,270,and 280 on stuff up to eland, I'd be inclined to swing in their direction and not concern myself with the "toughness" issue... smile These guys all disagree with you, including one well respected and experienced writer who you managed to insult with your own pontification; one reason I am having a hard time taking seriously anything you say....

If, as you say, African animals have a "well deserved reputation" for being tougher than North American game, pound for pound, I wonder how you know this if you have not shot much North American game.Is it because someone told you or have you seen it for yourself by shooting and hunting here in North America as well? Just curious....

Otherwise, thanks for all the wisdom.

Last edited by BobinNH; 12/21/11.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Originally Posted by Winchestermodel70
When you get to Africa, try that combo out and let us know how it works for you. It's your safari. You pay your money and you take your chance.

The part of the NP that penetrates is the metal cased wadcutter that's left after the front portion comes apart. It acts like a small solid, where a TSX or A-Frame keeps chugging along with a larger than caliber mushroom at the front end. Essentially, an A-Frame is a partition with the front portion of the bullet jacket bonded to the core so it doesn't come apart.

African animals have a deserved reputation for being tougher than North American game.
Go on safari and judge for yourself.



The BS floweth over. Please continue to spew, I am all ears wanting to hear more about this "armour plated African game

Can't wait




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One of the interesting things about the myth of all African game being so much tougher than North American big game is that it's almost always heard from people without wide experience in North America, or even any experience--including a bunch of African PH's.

In fact I was taken to task by a well-known PH just last year, when I published an aritcle about the African toughness myth. This guy confronted me about the relative toughness of elk and blue wildebeest--but of course he'd never even seen an elk, much less seen an elk shot.

In contrast, I have killed all the supposedly super-tough plains game animals--zebra, wildebeest and gemsbok--as has my wife. I've also seen a bunch more taken by friends. Oddly, some of the quickest kills were made by Nosler Partitions put in the right place, even by such puny cartridges as the .270, 7x57 and .308--while some of the real rodeos were caused by super-bullets put in the wrong place with much bigger rounds.

In particular I remember a gemsbok one of my companions hit in the diaphragm on a broadside shot from a .375 H&H with a 270-grain Barnes TSX. The gemsbok went over two miles, and took several other "raking" shots from the .375 and the PH's .300 Winchester Magnum before succumbing.

If the same bullet had landed in the same place on a bull elk, the elk might never have been recovered, because of instead of running off over relatively level, semi-open thornveld, the elk would probably have gone over at least one mountain ridge, and maybe two or three.

Running off after hits around the edges is pretty much the definition of "tough." Elk are just as tough as any of the vaunted African plains game--but none of them are all that tough if hit right by a good bullet, even one of those antiquated Nosler Partitions.


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Exactly, I could not agree more



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Good point(s) MD. While I don't try to take out both shoulders on a broadside shot, if I can hit one of them on an animal that's facing me or angling away, I've found that helps too.
I've seen deer class stuff go down pretty reliably with a lung shot that hits the rear lobes, but the bigger, tougher stuff does seem to have an amazing ability to go long distances in really mean country with such a hit. Even watched a Pronghorn hit through the rear lobes of the lungs try to get up a minute or two after going right down. It really pays to both shoot carefully and to make sure he's down for keeps. E

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John,

Quit making sense and using personal experience in a logical way to back your opinions.


- Greg

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Greg,

Thanks!

It's always kind of odd to read really firm opinions based on limited experience and theory....


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Greg,

Thanks!

It's always kind of odd to read really firm opinions based on limited experience and theory....


I like to refer to such as, "long on theory-short on substance"



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A good friend of mine sometimes calls them "aggressive ignorance."


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"Taking a firm stand with both feet planted in mid-air."


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Phil Shoemaker, the well-known Alaskan brown bear hunting guide, has done extensive penetration testing, sometimes on beached whales. He's found that the 220-grain Partition penetrates deeper than any other expanding bullet he's used, and Phil has used cartridges up to the .505 Gibbs, and most of the premium bullets made in the U.S.



Has this work been published? I am a big fan of the 220gr Partition out of my .300 Win Mag.

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As I recall Phil published the info in one of the Wolfe magazines.


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Originally Posted by BobinNH

These guys all disagree with you, including one well respected and experienced writer who you managed to insult with your own pontification; one reason I am having a hard time taking seriously anything you say....



Two writers, actually. In one of his books, Boddington also mentioned that he didn't think African game was any tougher than an elk.


Originally Posted by shrapnel
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle.


Originally Posted by JohnBurns
I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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