|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712
Campfire Regular
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712 |
Hello folks, Just wondern' if any body has any good loads for there 7mm rem mags.
I have the new nosler, hornady, speer, barnes reloading manuals and I more or less smiled and abandoned there anemic, lawyer infested recommendations. The earlier hornady and speer, lyman manuals I have from the 70's seem to be more on par with reality than the new ones.
So, went back to my pet load books by Ken Waters read up, and pretty much started from his info and knowledge and worked on my own load development.
According to my chronograph, I have easily very closely matched ORIGINAL 1963 load claims with 160 and 175 grain bullets 0f 3100 for the 160 and 3000 for the 175. with RL 22 powder.
Anybody have anything of similar experience? Rifles are like people and each one is individual on likes and dislikes. But there is quite the difference in data for such a popular cartridge.
According to the new "data" the cartridge should have died years ago...falling victim to the 30-06, .280 or 270. That just was not the case then and I firmly believe it should be better than originally conceived today with advances in powders and everything elts.
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,406
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,406 |
How much RL22 did the 1963 manual call for?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712 |
Now, that is a trick question Calvin...
In 1963, there was no RL22. And I do not have manuals that go back that far except for the info reprinted in some of waters load information I have.
I just was able to very closely achieve the velocities of original stated velocities with the RL22.
Ken Waters did point out some early factory velocities figures were taken from a 26 inch barrel, The minds in the sales departments knew speed would sell. But when fire from 24 inch tubes, velocity was still above the anemic factory loadings of today.
As for the amount of RL 22, amount is over any max you will find in any manual. For the 175 grain load that features a nosler partition, it's 10-15 fps away from 3000 fps, accurately I should ad also.
For the 160 sierra game king load, I should have pointed out earlier is that it uses H4831. Again amount is over anything that has been published, but at 3080 fps and no sign of excessive pressure in bolt lift, primer pocket loosening up, case expansion-stretching, Im really tempted to break the 3100 fps mark just to do it. Then after reading some of Bob Hagles work on the 7mm rem, I was one grain from one of his loads.
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
As for the amount of RL 22, amount is over any max you will find in any manual. For the 175 grain load that features a nosler partition, it's 10-15 fps away from 3000 fps, accurately I should ad also.
For the 160 sierra game king load, I should have pointed out earlier is that it uses H4831. Again amount is over anything that has been published, but at 3080 fps and no sign of excessive pressure in bolt lift, primer pocket loosening up, case expansion-stretching, Im really tempted to break the 3100 fps mark just to do it. Then after reading some of Bob Hagles work on the 7mm rem, I was one grain from one of his loads. Because it was so popular,everybody and his brother chambered for the 7 Rem Mag...throats and barrels varied all over the place,as does load data.Plus, today, the data for it is not as aggressive as it used to be. As a general rule when I see 3050-3080 with a 160 gr in a 24" barrel, I stop right there. These results come with a variety of powders;not only RL22, but 7828, H4831,RL25,and others not available when Hagel worked up many of his loads.Also,I suspect a lot of Hagel's data was worked up with WW II surplus 4831 which was a bit slower than the one we use today. I would not try to stretch the 160 past 3100....many times the difference between a dependable maximun hunting load,and one that stretches primer pockets and may be too hot, is when we "reach" for that last 75-100 fps, or one to two grains more powder.If you find you need more velocity from a 160 gr bullet, I would get a bigger cartridge rather than push harder with the smaller one. A 160 gr bullet at 3080 is a deadly load for about any North American game.
Last edited by BobinNH; 12/28/11.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,340
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,340 |
Alot of todays 7mm data is crazy soft. I'm glad I've accumulated books over the years and pamphlets from powder companies. Here's what quick load thinks with a 26" barrel and 162 amax set at approx 61k pressure. (always work up) Cartridge : 7 mm Rem. Mag.
Bullet : .284, 162, Hornady A-MAX 28402
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.290 inch or 83.57 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61000 psi, or 420 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
95 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 75%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Vihtavuori N570 107.5 75.8 4.91 3176 97.4 61000 17371 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218 110.0 78.4 5.08 3141 97.0 58844 17677 1.244 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 110.0 74.0 4.79 3109 100.0 58685 15162 1.258 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 106.4 71.2 4.61 3109 99.8 61000 15421 1.258 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 100.9 72.2 4.68 3109 99.8 61000 15208 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 101.2 72.3 4.68 3108 99.8 61000 15197 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 101.1 72.1 4.67 3107 99.9 61000 15158 1.242 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 98.2 67.1 4.35 3103 99.4 61000 15281 1.249 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 104.2 69.3 4.49 3099 100.0 61000 14221 1.245 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 96.4 67.3 4.36 3099 100.0 61000 14706 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 98.5 70.1 4.54 3097 98.6 61000 15567 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 102.7 66.7 4.32 3094 99.6 61000 14771 1.238 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 97.1 66.7 4.32 3094 99.6 61000 14771 1.238 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 98.2 66.4 4.30 3081 99.6 61000 14654 1.235 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 102.2 70.9 4.60 3081 99.8 61000 14629 1.233 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 107.4 71.0 4.60 3078 99.8 61000 14591 1.233 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 98.5 66.6 4.31 3075 100.0 61000 14571 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 98.5 66.6 4.31 3075 100.0 61000 14571 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 98.5 66.6 4.31 3075 100.0 61000 14571 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 101.1 66.9 4.33 3074 99.9 61000 14611 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41 109.6 78.1 5.06 3051 91.8 61000 15758 1.239 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 99.8 66.2 4.29 3047 99.3 61000 14326 1.254 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 95.1 63.2 4.10 3036 99.9 61000 13731 1.243 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 95.5 63.9 4.14 3033 99.9 61000 13818 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 96.3 64.4 4.17 3027 99.9 61000 13741 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870 110.0 76.0 4.92 3021 97.4 52925 16351 1.328
Winchester 760 86.1 60.9 3.95 3019 100.0 61000 13189 1.259 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 91.2 63.0 4.08 3018 100.0 61000 13199 1.259 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 90.9 60.5 3.92 3017 100.0 61000 12923 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 96.9 65.5 4.25 3015 99.2 61000 13830 1.248 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 100.8 65.5 4.25 3015 99.2 61000 13830 1.248 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 90.8 62.7 4.06 3011 99.9 61000 13451 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 93.7 62.7 4.06 3011 99.9 61000 13451 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 93.7 62.7 4.06 3011 99.9 61000 13451 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 93.3 59.7 3.87 3009 100.0 61000 12876 1.254 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 84.1 59.9 3.88 2999 100.0 61000 12980 1.265 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170 110.0 72.8 4.71 2998 95.7 60541 14642 1.273 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 84.0 58.9 3.82 2998 100.0 61000 12328 1.247 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 95.7 64.7 4.19 2993 100.0 61000 13162 1.272 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 88.1 60.2 3.90 2992 100.0 61000 12703 1.269 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 90.7 60.0 3.89 2991 100.0 61000 12537 1.266 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 90.7 60.0 3.89 2991 100.0 61000 12534 1.266 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 94.5 66.6 4.32 2988 99.9 61000 13262 1.258 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 92.3 61.4 3.98 2987 100.0 61000 12199 1.274 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 94.6 62.4 4.04 2986 99.5 61000 13185 1.251 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 93.9 60.1 3.89 2985 100.0 61000 12484 1.285 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 100.9 66.7 4.32 2979 100.0 61000 12966 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-D1001 107.0 77.0 4.99 2978 92.4 61000 14524 1.258 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 104.3 66.0 4.27 2974 100.0 61000 12764 1.289 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 95.2 60.9 3.95 2972 100.0 61000 12294 1.275 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 101.0 64.8 4.20 2969 99.5 61000 13034 1.255 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 84.7 58.5 3.79 2967 100.0 61000 12052 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0701 90.7 60.0 3.89 2966 100.0 61000 12525 1.271 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 84.8 58.6 3.79 2965 100.0 61000 12039 1.264 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 84.0 57.4 3.72 2954 100.0 61000 12049 1.271 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 82.7 55.3 3.58 2952 100.0 61000 11802 1.267 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 82.7 55.3 3.58 2952 100.0 61000 11802 1.267 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 82.7 55.3 3.58 2952 100.0 61000 11802 1.267 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 88.9 58.3 3.78 2952 100.0 61000 12351 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 86.1 58.4 3.78 2951 100.0 61000 12344 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 81.2 57.8 3.75 2948 100.0 61000 11941 1.261 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 83.0 55.5 3.60 2946 100.0 61000 11719 1.269 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 83.5 54.0 3.50 2944 100.0 61000 11251 1.249 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 96.3 60.2 3.90 2943 100.0 61000 11584 1.268 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0651 89.8 58.7 3.80 2940 100.0 61000 12000 1.270 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 84.6 55.7 3.61 2935 100.0 61000 11429 1.254 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 78.0 57.0 3.69 2932 100.0 61000 11605 1.275 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 84.1 56.8 3.68 2930 100.0 61000 11572 1.286 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 80.9 55.9 3.62 2927 100.0 61000 11474 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 86.0 56.9 3.68 2926 100.0 61000 11477 1.285 ! Near Maximum !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712 |
Wow, thanks for the quick load kraky111. Yes, crazy soft the data is.
BobinNH had stated that everybody and everything everywhere was making and chambering rifles for it. That would explain such variations in manuals and the soft factory loadings plus, fluffy reloading data. I know Remington could not keep up with demand for a while for rifles chambered for the new 7mm. The same thing happened to smith-wesson and the .44 mag after Dirty Harry made his debut.
The charge for the 175 grain load with RL22 is a healthy 68 grains in a federal case with a cci 250 primer to start the proses. Over 40 rounds have been fired in the rifle in testing and trial with the load with no ill-effects to date... Accept for a coyote, couple crows and a large bodied, small horned whitetail which the effects of the load on them were rather fatal...
The 160 grain sierra game king load of H4831 ended up at 69 grains, fed case, cci 250 primer. Firing 20 rounds only in testing at targets of this load have yielded no excessive signs of pressure.
I double checked charge on separate scale to confirm powder charge different times for both loads and they read exactly the same.
I bought a digital caliper to ensure measurement accuracy on case movements after and before firing.
The only thing Im left with is this particular rifle has a little longer throat that standard, or is partially burned out. It is the original factory barrel.
Around 20 rounds, groups do open up. I foam clean the barrel till vary little too no trace of anything comes out with patch and groups shrink back up.
Believe me, I like what I have accomplished but am still amazed where I ended up charge wise, comparing my worked up loads to the 'manuals.
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,010
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 48,010 |
I recently ran into the same dilemma while using RE 22. I made the switch to RE 25, which gave more consistent results in both accuracy and velocity.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
I agree with bsa on the RL25....I have found it very compatible with the heavier 7mm bullets in the 7RM,the 7mm Dakota,and the 7mm Mashburn Super.In the 7mm Dakota it was the powder once I hit bullet weights of 160 gr.
I have even used that powder in the 270 Winchester for some pretty impressive velocities.
If the OP's barrel has a longish throat,that might account for the heavier charges to get the same velocity as manual charges.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,290
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,290 |
I posted these pics on another 7mm RM thread a few weeks ago. In my Rem 700CDL 7mm Rem Mag RL25 gave the highest velocity with good accuracy from 3-4 powders tested. H1000 and Retumbo were also good performers. ![[Linked Image]](http://i54.tinypic.com/egu3pg.jpg) ![[Linked Image]](http://i53.tinypic.com/4js6sp.jpg) [/quote]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,461 |
h-4831 and 140 berger or accubond.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,234
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,234 |
Once again, today's data reflects better and more accurate pressure testing methods. If company lawyers were such an influence, you wouldn't see load manuals at all.
The 7mm RemMag is noted for creating very spiky pressures due to throat erosion. Because of those spikes, top loads have to be kept down a bit so even the highest spike doesn't get into dangerous levels. That's why loads have been lowered a bit over the years.
Use data that's been proven safe - or use data that's been proven unsafe. It's your choice.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712 |
Thanks dingo, roninflag, BSA1917hunter and RockyRaab.
I do have a buddy that owes me a can of RL25....
RockyRaab,I was mostly curious if anybody had experienced the same issues with the soft loading data... I did digress into particulars.
I worked up to these loads in the same fashion more or less most manuals describe for working up to THERE maximums. Paying attention to signs the manuals warn of plus careful measuring of cases for excessive expansion and stretching.
I KNOW my data is safe in my rifle.... Just the same as the reloading technicians at nosler, speer, hornady, barnes claim safe use of there data in there guns. Im not a 'tech' by any means. In 23 years of handloading, have yet to wreck myself or any firearm.... Danger signs start showing, I know I passed a limit and correct it.
A man has got to know his rifles limits, so as not to go past them.....
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,234
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,234 |
Well, to be precise, you aren't seeing what you believe are pressure signs, and you therefore believe your loads are safe. That isn't quite the same as KNOWING they are safe - unless you get enough actual pressure readings to rule out occasional spikes.
I can't give you any personal observations on the 7 Mangleum because I've never owned a magnum rifle of any flavor whatsoever. But I do have pressure-testing gear and can assure you that some very unusual - even scary - things can happen even though no "traditional pressure signs" show up at all. That's why I take what the professional lab guys tell me as gospel.
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,170
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 17,170 |
boomwack, I sent you a PM
Thank you Sir.
Last edited by Hammerdown; 12/29/11.
Randy
NRA
Patriot Life Benefactor
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,881
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,881 |
Hope he's not a member at my range...
"Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right."
Henry Ford
If it's tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712
Campfire Regular
|
|
OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 712 |
Hope he's not a member at my range... Oh, I'm not. They don't allow allow hot coffee so as no one scalds their.... body parts. And persons on the premises are required to were helmets, knee pads, steel toe boots, and elbow pads along with fluorescent pink clothing at all times for visibility and safety. Too bad, Safety police thick here too...
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member
|
|
|
|
|
711 members (10gaugeman, 12344mag, 10gaugemag, 06hunter59, 1234, 10Glocks, 70 invisible),
3,476
guests, and
1,181
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,271
Posts18,467,354
Members73,925
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
