NIKON PROSTAFF - 480 CLICKS OF CAN-DO!
 

Topic Options
#5206663 - 05/04/11 The Hidden History of the Second Amendment
pjf Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/07
Posts: 207
Here’s an interesting law review article called The Hidden History of the Second Amendment. You can download and read the article at URL, http://lawreview.law.ucdavis.edu/issues/Vol31/vol31_no2.html.

The article describes the deliberations of our new nation over the right to bear arms. Apparently, at issue was the right of a state to maintain “a well regulated militia” to suppress slave revolts. Southerners knew of Northern hostility towards slavery and feared that Congress may be reluctant to support militias designed to suppress slave insurrections.

The object of the 2nd Amendment was neither to fight foreign aggression nor to fight domestic tyranny. Southern colonies were reluctant to commit their militias to the Revolutionary War, preferring to reserve them for slave control. Disappointed with the performance of militias during the Revolutionary War and during Shay’s Rebellion, the new nation sought a federal army to fight both foreign and domestic threats.

The 2nd Amendment had little to do with an individual’s right to bear arms. The reaction to Shay’s Rebellion removed any sentiment for a “right to rebel” against an oppressive state. It had much to do with the fear of slave revolts and the desire of Southern states to maintain “a well regulated Militia” to suppress these revolts.

The article asserts that an individual right to bear arms was a recent invention. When the NRA fought the Brady Bill, it did not cite the 2nd Amendment but instead cited the 10th Amendment exclusively. It was only later that the “Insurrectionist Theory” was formulated with NRA funding.

I invite everyone to read the article and comment.

Top
RV 728 BP
#5221830 - 05/09/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: pjf]
VAnimrod Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 61130
Loc: gone
Bullschit, to the inth-degree.

Incredibly poorly researched, and biased from the get-go.

Try reading some of Stephen Halbrook's work on the 2A. Legal scholarship that blows that hatchet job out of the water; vetted and peer-reviewed.

Further, that "article" is from 1998. See exactly what the SCOTUS thought, or rather, didn't think of it in Heller and McDonald.

That drivel from UC-Davis, written by Carl T. Bogus (such an appropriate name) isn't worth wiping your ass with. Bogus has made a career of trying to rewrite the Constitution to his socialist, anti-2A agenda for years.

He has failed, miserably, many times over on trying to sue the firearms industry under... convoluted... tort law claims, serving only to pad his own socialist reputation and add to his CV for his positions at Roger Williams School of Law in Rhode Island.

His work is, quite literally, laughable.

http://law.rwu.edu/carl-t-bogus


Edited by VAnimrod (05/09/11)
_________________________



Top
#5222491 - 05/09/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: VAnimrod]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36590
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Yep, there is way too much original writing from the Founding Fathers available to believe that sort of revisionist BS.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

Top
#5225162 - 05/10/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: pjf]
PaleRider Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 1033
Just more trying to rewrite history to fit someones agenda.

Bunch of BS.......................

Ted

Top
#5237342 - 05/14/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: pjf]
Rock Chuck Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 29377
Loc: Filer, ID
Quote:
The 2nd Amendment had little to do with an individual’s right to bear arms.

Total BS. The term 'people' is used in several other amendments, always referring to an individual right.
1st amend: right of the people to freely assemble
4th amend: right of the people to be secure
9th amend: retained by the people
10th amend: to the people

The 2d clearly says 'of the people' and is no different than any of these others. It's an INDIVIDUAL right
_________________________
I've figured out how to finally get that smoking hot body...
I've decided to be cremated.

Top
#5239117 - 05/15/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: Rock Chuck]
petergerry Offline
New Member

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 4
A reading of Saul Cornell’s essay brings several things to mind. First, there has been a torrential outpouring of writings on Second Amendment issues for quite some years.In any event, it is easier to fathom the motivations of the National Rifle Association and Brady legislation supporters than it is the dozens of those who reside in the halls of ivy. To further complicate matters, one finds both liberals and conservatives on each side of the debate.

Top
#5240244 - 05/15/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: petergerry]
Rock Chuck Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/06
Posts: 29377
Loc: Filer, ID
All the writings you can find from either side don't change the words "of the people". It can only mean 1 thing.
_________________________
I've figured out how to finally get that smoking hot body...
I've decided to be cremated.

Top
#5276734 - 05/27/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: Rock Chuck]
whelennut Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 4716
Loc: Minnesota
I find it hard to believe that the Bill of Rights pertains to the Military.
_________________________
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.

Top
#5737894 - 10/22/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: whelennut]
XL5 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 648
Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
The battles at Lexington and Concorde happened where they did specifically because the Redcoats were coming to seize the colonial's arms, so it's only natural the founding fathers would be sensitive to the issue of a government attempting to deprive the common citizen of arms.

And as Brother whelennut has pointed out, the expressed purpose of all ten amendments of the Bill of Rights (indeed, all 12 of the proposed amendments, two of which failed to be ratified) was to limit the power of government over its citizenry. Any contention that even the tiniest portion of any of the ten was intended to bestow further power upon the government is absolutely assinine. ASS-I-9.

When the NRA fought the Brady Bill, SCOTUS had not yet set a precedent as to whom 2A pertained to (regardless, 10A should have sufficed). DC V Heller corrected SCOTUS' previous oversight.
_________________________
Alle Fähigkeit ist vergeblich, wenn ein Engel in Ihrem Notenloch uriniert
-- old German proverb

Top
#5870764 - 12/02/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: XL5]
StubbleDuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/19/06
Posts: 4554
Originally Posted By: XL5
The battles at Lexington and Concorde happened where they did specifically because the Redcoats were coming to seize the colonial's arms, so it's only natural the founding fathers would be sensitive to the issue of a government attempting to deprive the common citizen of arms.

And as Brother whelennut has pointed out, the expressed purpose of all ten amendments of the Bill of Rights (indeed, all 12 of the proposed amendments, two of which failed to be ratified - a balanced budget amendment and a term limts amendment, both sorely needed!!) was to limit the power of government over its citizenry (to place "chains upon the fedral gubmnt - NOT the citizenry nor the individual 13 [nation] "s"tates!) . Any contention that even the tiniest portion of any of the ten was intended to bestow further power upon the government is absolutely assinine. ASS-I-9. INDEED!! wink smirk

When the NRA fought the Brady Bill, SCOTUS had not yet set a precedent as to whom 2A pertained to (regardless, 10A should have sufficed). DC V Heller corrected SCOTUS' previous oversight.


+1 ZL5 and WhelenNut. grin

Top
#5870786 - 12/02/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: VAnimrod]
Win_94 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/20/11
Posts: 272
Originally Posted By: VAnimrod
written by Carl T. Bogus (such an appropriate name)


The OP was funny enough, but the dudes name is icing on the cake!

You can't make this stuff up... well, you know what I mean. :P
_________________________
If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. If I don't reply further, I'm satisfied with my side of the "debate."

...nuff said.

Top
#5881725 - 12/05/11 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: StubbleDuck]
crew_chief Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 8
I have to ring in and ask if this foolish person has ever read the Federalist papers. I guess the answer would be a resounding no. Many times the founding fathers spoke on the subject of guns and rights of "the people", all of which was stated numerous times in the Bill of Rights.

Many times people who thank they know what the hell they are talking get it wrong simply because they read only what they want to and throw the rest in the damn garbage simply because it does not fit their Socialist agenda.

Everyone please stand up for what you believe is right and vote these idiots out.

Shoot often, shoot safely and share our sport

Top
#6000101 - 01/04/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: crew_chief]
22WRF Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/06/06
Posts: 3557
The way to attack these types of writings is not to call the writers various names and accuse them of different agendas. The better way is more scholarly work.

But regardless, nobody alive today was alive back then. People can only form perceptions of the truth about the 2nd ammendment, rather than the truth itself.

And perceptions are always going to be biased on both sides.

The battle of the 2nd ammendment will rage on for time immomorial. And for all time it will be "interpreted" for today's use based on today's needs, just like the other ammendments.

Top
#6016831 - 01/08/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: StubbleDuck]
Rubeus_Hagrid Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 164
Loc: St. Louis, MO
Bogus is boggus. Another libtard following in the footsteps of Michael Bellesiles and Michael Moore...oops, sorry, rather "those who shall not be named."



Edited by Rubeus_Hagrid (01/08/12)
_________________________
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Top
#6016868 - 01/08/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: 22WRF]
Rubeus_Hagrid Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 164
Loc: St. Louis, MO
[it will be "interpreted" for today's use based on today's needs, just like the other ammendments. [/quote]

Justice Scalia makes it clear in Heller that the Constitution is to be interpreted in terms of the meaning of the words as used in common parlance at the time the particular provision was adopted. I'd have to reread the decision, but I don't think the dissenters fought him too hard on this. Unfortunately, this won't stop the meaningless inquiries into "the founders' intent" or "the living Constitution."

The scariest part is Heller was decided by one vote...by an unelected judge.
_________________________
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Top
#6070776 - 01/21/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: StubbleDuck]
Crockettnj Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/03/10
Posts: 3295
My son is 5. I think he will be the last generation to know of 2A rights for "the people". New SCOTUS members will soft land right into a new interpretation, likley something to do with national guard.

You have more faith in the electorate?
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Archerhunter

Quit giving in inch by inch then looking back to lament the mile behind ya and wonder how to preserve those few feet left in front of ya. They'll never stop until they're stopped. That's a fact.

Top
#6300762 - 03/17/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: StubbleDuck]
tromba Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 4
Loc: Forest, VA
I think the 2nd Amendment is clear as it was written over 2 centuries ago. The 2nd Amendment, as the rest of the Constitution, needs to be interpreted to meet the needs of the current society. The Founding Fathers were limited to the language and mindset of the current day and intentionally wrote certain ambiguities into the text knowing this. Thomas Jefferson, as many of the Founding Fathers, were Deists. They did not adhere to the strict writings of any populist or organized group but they knew that the vast majority of new Americans did. They had to construct a document that would both sell to the current population and live for many years. Very smart these guys. I think that this kind of discourse is EXACTLY what they wanted. I do not have a Ph.D. and am not a legal scholar but I will argue this point with anyone. And have.

Top
#6300771 - 03/17/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: tromba]
tromba Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/17/12
Posts: 4
Loc: Forest, VA
One point to be made. The most intelligent thing the Constitutional writers did was to make arrangements for Amendments.

Top
#6347292 - 03/29/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: tromba]
saj Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 486


"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full posession of them."
Zachariah Johnson
Elliot's Debates, vol. 3 "The Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"… the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms"
Philadelphia Federal Gazette
June 18, 1789, Pg. 2, Col. 2
Article on the Bill of Rights


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Founding Fathers on Arms
"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
Thomas Paine


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
Richard Henry Lee
American Statesman, 1788


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The great object is that every man be armed." and "Everyone who is able may have a gun."
Patrick Henry
American Patriot


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
Patrick Henry
American Patriot


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that … it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; … "
Thomas Jefferson
letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824. ME 16:45.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The best we can help for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
Alexander Hamilton
The Federalist Papers at 184-8


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Founding Fathers on Maintaining Freedom
"The greatest danger to American freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. "
Noah Webster
American Lexicographer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."
Edmund Burke
British Statesman, 1784


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms."
Thomas Jefferson
to James Madison


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Ben Franklin
American Statesman

Top
#6347345 - 03/29/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: saj]
LN2T Offline
Member

Registered: 12/09/10
Posts: 11
Loc: Charlotte NC
Some new to me some old.. all prophetic and will be printed and put on the wall of my boys homeschool classroom. Lord knows my boys would NOT see many if any at any public school in this nation. Why is it that these principals seem oh so simple??? Might it be because they are?

Top
#6355527 - 03/31/12 Re: The Hidden History of the Second Amendment [Re: StubbleDuck]
rondrews Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/23/08
Posts: 283
Loc: Northwest Wisconsin
I'm not into name calling, but I can inject a proper name for "pjf"


Edited by rondrews (03/31/12)
_________________________
Better to be over the hill than under it.

Top

Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
RV 180 2
CLICK HERE for GREAT PRICES on LEUPOLD OPTICS at CAMERA LAND!
RV 160 1 2
CLICK HERE for HUGE SUMMER DAYS SAVINGS on ZEISS OPTICS at CAMERA LAND!
RV 160 2 2
CLICK HERE to see SUPERB STEINER OPTICS!
Who's Online
90 registered (Allen Martin, artur, 79S, 257robertsimp, 25classic, 10 invisible), 367 Guests and 217 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RV 160 3 2
Forum Stats
53,266 Registered Members
72 Forums
687,466 Topics
9,930,409 Posts

Most users ever online: 4,830 @ 12/02/14










Copyright © 2000-2015 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.