24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
Originally Posted by Take_a_knee
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
It is funny how things change over time.

The piston AR in the world of real high speed low drag was intended to make Short Barreled Rifles (SBRs) with suppressors reliable before we understood how to make SBRs with Suppressors reliable with the DI system.

Now days the guys in the know understand how to make the DI system work better than any piston in the first 2000 rounds or so without any cleaning or maintenance.

Larry Vickers was an early proponent of the piston upper, even he has poste on his site that it probably only is off benefit to someone who has to be able to do sustained full auto fire.

We has 11.5in Bushmasters in Iraq in 05 that gave problems initially and Bushmaster got us different buffers and buffer springs and the guns ran great after that.

Give me a shovel and some nice dirt or sand and I can stop a piston gun sooner than a well built DI gun in the first 2000 rounds from a good cleaning and lubing.

After 2000 rounds and no cleaning then the silly piston might have an advantage.

The overpressure of the DI system will blow sand and crap out of the action long before the carbon build up will be a problem.





We had 11.5in Bushmasters in Iraq in 05 that had issues at first. Bushmaster got us different springs and buffers and they ran great after that.

Larry Vickers used to be pro-piston. Now he says they likely are only beneficial for sustained full auto fire.


ANY time you leave the original design, you run into issues until they can be sorted out. Same went for M4s for a bit and that design even includes the ammo used....

But its all been fairly easy to solve the issue in the end.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
ARIC

Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4
B
New Member
Offline
New Member
B
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4
I have no idea where you tards get loss of accuracy from a piston system?? show me one article or test to prove that?
My p308 is deadly accurate. and If I REALLY want to be super accurate I can turn off the gas system and shoot it single shot,its basically a bolt gun at that point.

Last edited by Billbo_Bags_Em; 03/20/12.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
F
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
F
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
Well then, that settles that.

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,264
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,264
good try Oldman, bosslady, interthem what ever your calling yourself tonight. Lets see you post a picture of you and your rifle.


Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
T
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
T
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Originally Posted by Billbo_Bags_Em
I have no idea where you tards get loss of accuracy from a piston system?? show me one article or test to prove that?
My p308 is deadly accurate. and If I REALLY want to be super accurate I can turn off the gas system and shoot it single shot,its basically a bolt gun at that point.


Well, I get my "idea" that they aren't accurate from a friend who spent a week doing a T&E on several different brands. For that eval, he had access to limitless match grade 556 ammo.

IC B2

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680
Ole douche said the other day he had 100 new usernames............


Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 51
C
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
C
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 51
Piston,

Piston is great in the since your Upper reciever and BCG stay clean. All of the Gas is expelled through the piston area. The bad par about that is if you dont keep theose working parts clean in the pison and lubed, they will seaze up......

Direct,
Stoner assembly since NAM. Proven out over many many manymyears. It went through minor changes over the years. The only bad thing about this is the upper and BCG get dirty and you should lube lightly after every range time or hunting. A light coat go's a long way.


Battle is an orgy of disorder. George S. Patton, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, V/R Chris https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...12828/gonew/1/Call_to_fellow_Vets#UNREAD
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
I read an article in Shooting Times or Guns and Ammo where they did a torture test on six AR rifles from various makers. 3 gas guns and 3 piston guns. After dunking them in pond slime, oil, sand, concrete dust, and just about anything else they could think of guess who kept firing. 2 gas guns [including a RRA] and another make.

The piston guns didn't make it to the end of the test.


I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
Originally Posted by cmr287
Piston,

Piston is great in the since your Upper reciever and BCG stay clean. All of the Gas is expelled through the piston area. The bad par about that is if you dont keep theose working parts clean in the pison and lubed, they will seaze up......

Direct,
Stoner assembly since NAM. Proven out over many many manymyears. It went through minor changes over the years. The only bad thing about this is the upper and BCG get dirty and you should lube lightly after every range time or hunting. A light coat go's a long way.


Is ur gun mayntanance and pisstun gun as good as ur speling?


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,945
T
Campfire Sage
Offline
Campfire Sage
T
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 130,945
Originally Posted by Reloder28
Can ya'll explain the pro's & con's of these two action types?
Pistons are direct action, not dependent on un-obstructed valves, so such actions' mechanisms are more reliable, and less dependent on keeping clean.

IC B3

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
OR they have more moving parts and can be LESS reliable.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
As I said in my previous post, the test run by a national magazine didn't prove the piston guns as more reliable. In fact the only 2 guns to make it thru the test were GAS GUNS.

I think the reason people think the piston is more reliable is because the AK-47 will fire in ANY situation or condition. But, I think that has more to do with the loose tolerances of the K gun than the piston. I bet if you made an AK to the tight AR specs, it would prove to be no more reliable than a gas system, but it would be more accurate than the current versions.


I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,264
J
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
J
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 18,264
Glad you posted on this thread again, it will draw boss lady, enter them, who ever he is today.


Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
F
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
F
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
Actually, the main reason for the "reliability" of the AK-47 has to do with the cartridge it uses. The 7.62X39 has a much more pronounced taper compared to say the 5.56X45. This makes it much easier to load cartridges and eject spent casings.

It also makes for some seriously curved magazines.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
Actually, the main reason for the "reliability" of the AK-47 has to do with the cartridge it uses. The 7.62X39 has a much more pronounced taper compared to say the 5.56X45. This makes it much easier to load cartridges and eject spent casings.. ..


If that's the case, why does the 5.56x39 in the AK-74 have the same reliability? That case doesn't seem to be overly tapered. confused

Everything I've even seen or heard said the reason the AK was reliable was because of the loose tlerances. That is also the reason for the loose accuracy.

Either way, in the real world the piston actions are LESS reliable than a correctly made gas gun. wink


I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,798
J
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
J
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,798
Lol, the AK's round does help, but the reliability is 95% more to do with the action and specs.

Anyway, carrier tilt, initial expense, and expensive/rare parts mean it makes little sense to get a piston gun. Get a 5.56 AK if you don't want a DI AR.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 369
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 369
There's a lot to be said for not ever having to scrape carbon off of a bolt. I run an Osprey Defense piston conversion in my own carbine and have installed over a dozen of them without a single hiccup. No permanent modification to your rifle, no valves, no springs, no changes to be made for blanks, cans, or caliber change. It just runs, guys. Shoot me a PM and I'll hook you up with the best deal on one.



Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,727
Why would anyone want to make a 100% reliable gas gun into a less than 100% reliable piston gun? Do people like to lose accuracy? Do they like jams and things going wrong?


I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,371
Originally Posted by CAFR
There's a lot to be said for not ever having to scrape carbon off of a bolt. I run an Osprey Defense piston conversion in my own carbine and have installed over a dozen of them without a single hiccup. No permanent modification to your rifle, no valves, no springs, no changes to be made for blanks, cans, or caliber change. It just runs, guys. Shoot me a PM and I'll hook you up with the best deal on one.


I shot a lot of AR barrels out.

In the process of that IE killing a barrel, I can count on one hand the number of times I"ve felt compelled to scrape carbon..... and I've shot out more barrels on ARs than a lot of folks ever have.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
F
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
F
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
Originally Posted by dmsbandit
Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
Actually, the main reason for the "reliability" of the AK-47 has to do with the cartridge it uses. The 7.62X39 has a much more pronounced taper compared to say the 5.56X45. This makes it much easier to load cartridges and eject spent casings.. ..


If that's the case, why does the 5.56x39 in the AK-74 have the same reliability? That case doesn't seem to be overly tapered. confused

Everything I've even seen or heard said the reason the AK was reliable was because of the loose tlerances. That is also the reason for the loose accuracy.

Either way, in the real world the piston actions are LESS reliable than a correctly made gas gun. wink


The 7.62X39 has a body taper with a an agle of 1.2 degrees, this is almost three times as much taper as the 5.56X45 which has a body tape of 0.47 degrees. The 5.45X39 has a body taper of 0.72 degrees which is quite a lot more than the 5.56X45. The 7.62X51 is the straightest of the bunch with a taper of 0.35 degrees. (I sure hope I got my trig right.)

You can have loose tolerances all you want but, the issue of reliability has to do with getting cartridges in and pulling fired cases out and shorter cones go in and out a lot easier than longer rods.

As for your final statement that only applies to piston Vs jet ARs. A rifle designed from the ground up to be piston-powered can be extremely reliable. In the case of the AR, the piston is an afterthought that negates many of the design advantages of the rifle.

Page 4 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
754 members (10ring1, 10gaugeman, 007FJ, 10gaugemag, 06hunter59, 01Foreman400, 75 invisible), 2,956 guests, and 1,270 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,716
Posts18,400,390
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.099s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9091 MB (Peak: 1.0413 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 02:33:04 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS