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#6464430 - 05/02/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38320
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: CAFR
Whatever... Run your nasty guns and be proud. I'm just the poor gunsmith who gets to clean up all the messes. Impingement guns are good for business. wink


I think you are drunk. I"ve yet to see an issue with a DI AR that would require a supposed gunsmith. And Iv'e shot them, well lets just say, a fair bit over the years....
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#6465650 - 05/02/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: rost495]
FTR_Shooter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 1899
Loc: The Lone Star State
One needs to remember that not all shooters, or rather, gun owners, know how to take care of their guns. The AR is still a mystery for many of their owners.

For example, I am sure we have all seen the video of the guy who has an ammo issue with his AR but he keeps chambering rounds, bumping the forward assist button and getting clicking sounds after pressing the trigger. He does this until the gun blows up.

Then there was the time when I when to a local public range (I think that was the last time I ever went to a public range,) a few years back. Some guy was messing with the trigger of his AR after removing the upper. He kept pressing the trigger and letting the hammer hit the lower's front end. I cringed every time he did that and finally I walked over and gently informed him that was not a good thing to do, he should put something between the hammer and the lower to catch the hammer. He gave me "the look" and I just apologized for disturbing him and left.

I have seen too many people buy an AR, and the very cheapest ammo they can find and then load up mags and just empty the magazines in the general direction of the target. Most of the rifles I saw were simply not lubed.

We all know a DI AR will run forever, provided it's wet. (I do grease myself, but I have oil just in case a quick squirt may be needed. Anything is better than running dry.)

So, I have no difficulty in believing that CFAR sees abused ARs.

I would think however, that anyone here would have no problems running their DI ARs as long as they need to run.

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#6466085 - 05/02/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: FTR_Shooter]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12156
Loc: Georgia
lets see some pictures of them abused AR's.
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#6466315 - 05/02/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
FTR_Shooter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 1899
Loc: The Lone Star State


I don't have pictures of the guy slamming the hammer in the lower.

CAFR should be able to provide some picture of the ARs he says he works on, I don't have any of those.

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#6466358 - 05/02/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: FTR_Shooter]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12156
Loc: Georgia
My question was directed to CAFR, hoping he would show us some pictures.
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#6466370 - 05/02/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12156
Loc: Georgia
Good video, why does none of this stuff happen to me?
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#6466861 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
FTR_Shooter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 1899
Loc: The Lone Star State
Geez, I don't know. Could it be because you know what you're doing?

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#6466865 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
FTR_Shooter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 1899
Loc: The Lone Star State
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
My question was directed to CAFR, hoping he would show us some pictures.


I know that, but that video is just too funny.

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#6467594 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
CAFR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 342
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
My question was directed to CAFR, hoping he would show us some pictures.


Sorry Bud. I haven't taken any photos of any grungy ARs to show you. I stand by my statements about the Osprey kit. Go ahead and futz around with gas rings and slobbering oil all over your rifle. I like my GP rifles and will probably never go back to DI. This "supposed" gunsmith has stated his opinion and doesn't wish to impose his will on any of you experts. Opinions are like A$$holes, everybody has one.
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It takes 43 muscles to frown, but only 7 to squeeze the trigger on a good sniper rifle.

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#6467615 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
CAFR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 342
Loc: Arizona
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, but only 7 to squeeze the trigger on a good sniper rifle.

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#6467624 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
CAFR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 342
Loc: Arizona


Edited by CAFR (05/03/12)
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It takes 43 muscles to frown, but only 7 to squeeze the trigger on a good sniper rifle.

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#6467798 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: FTR_Shooter]
dmsbandit Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 1726
Loc: The Republic of New Yorkistan
Here is the article from Guns and Ammo. read it and tell me if the piston guns are still worth the added weight and expense.

http://funreviews.net/publish/guns/AR_Reliability_Torture_Test.php


I doubt any of us would treat our guns like these guns where treated. Give me a gas gun and leave the piston guns home.
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#6467807 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12156
Loc: Georgia
The whole united states military is wrong, I must get pistons installed, I know my current carbines work just fine and the others I have owned all have worked fine, but this amazing revelation regards how to turn a functioning mil spec carbine into a hobby gun is now at the top of my "to do" list.

If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzUUOBfLpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Flimsy looks fragile


Edited by jimmyp (05/03/12)
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#6468497 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
CAFR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/05/09
Posts: 342
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
The whole united states military is wrong, I must get pistons installed, I know my current carbines work just fine and the others I have owned all have worked fine, but this amazing revelation regards how to turn a functioning mil spec carbine into a hobby gun is now at the top of my "to do" list.

If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzUUOBfLpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Flimsy looks fragile


This YouTube Video guy has made a lot of assumptions about the kit without actually torture testing it. In fact, the kit reduces your total part count on the rifle and isn't nearly as fragile or complicated as he reports. At least it's not as complicated as the other piston systems available today. You need not make any adjustments or use any devices on your weapon to go from blanks to full power loads, to shooting with a suppressor. Additionally, without introducing gas and carbon into the upper receiver, necessitating the use of copious amounts of grit collecting oil, the bolt carrier and upper receiver are exposed to far less heat and wear.

The horse and buggy were quite adequate as a mode of transportation. People laughed at Henry Ford and wondered why anyone would buy a car when you are already feeding the farm horses and they would get you there, too.

Let's look at some of the stellar decisions that our military has made about weapons. Drop the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm so the girls can shoot, too?

I'm still not trying to sway you die hards, but the newbies have a right to know the facts about GP systems and their benefits.
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, but only 7 to squeeze the trigger on a good sniper rifle.

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#6468533 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
dmsbandit Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 1726
Loc: The Republic of New Yorkistan
Originally Posted By: CAFR
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
The whole united states military is wrong, I must get pistons installed, I know my current carbines work just fine and the others I have owned all have worked fine, but this amazing revelation regards how to turn a functioning mil spec carbine into a hobby gun is now at the top of my "to do" list.

If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzUUOBfLpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Flimsy looks fragile


This YouTube Video guy has made a lot of assumptions about the kit without actually torture testing it. In fact, the kit reduces your total part count on the rifle and isn't nearly as fragile or complicated as he reports. At least it's not as complicated as the other piston systems available today. You need not make any adjustments or use any devices on your weapon to go from blanks to full power loads, to shooting with a suppressor. Additionally, without introducing gas and carbon into the upper receiver, necessitating the use of copious amounts of grit collecting oil, the bolt carrier and upper receiver are exposed to far less heat and wear.

The horse and buggy were quite adequate as a mode of transportation. People laughed at Henry Ford and wondered why anyone would buy a car when you are already feeding the farm horses and they would get you there, too.

Let's look at some of the stellar decisions that our military has made about weapons. Drop the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm so the girls can shoot, too?

I'm still not trying to sway you die hards, but the newbies have a right to know the facts about GP systems and their benefits.


Did you read the article I posted a link to? What in that article would make anyone buy a piston gun?
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I don't drink or Smoke. I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline.

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#6468586 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: dmsbandit]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12156
Loc: Georgia
He must own stock in them, that or facts, data, and years of experience don't count

Pistons are just something else to sell something to fix a problem that does not exist
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#6468589 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38320
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: CAFR
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
The whole united states military is wrong, I must get pistons installed, I know my current carbines work just fine and the others I have owned all have worked fine, but this amazing revelation regards how to turn a functioning mil spec carbine into a hobby gun is now at the top of my "to do" list.

If it ain't broke don't fix it comes to mind.


Check out this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzUUOBfLpk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Flimsy looks fragile


This YouTube Video guy has made a lot of assumptions about the kit without actually torture testing it. In fact, the kit reduces your total part count on the rifle and isn't nearly as fragile or complicated as he reports. At least it's not as complicated as the other piston systems available today. You need not make any adjustments or use any devices on your weapon to go from blanks to full power loads, to shooting with a suppressor. Additionally, without introducing gas and carbon into the upper receiver, necessitating the use of copious amounts of grit collecting oil, the bolt carrier and upper receiver are exposed to far less heat and wear.

The horse and buggy were quite adequate as a mode of transportation. People laughed at Henry Ford and wondered why anyone would buy a car when you are already feeding the farm horses and they would get you there, too.

Let's look at some of the stellar decisions that our military has made about weapons. Drop the .45 ACP in favor of the 9mm so the girls can shoot, too?

I'm still not trying to sway you die hards, but the newbies have a right to know the facts about GP systems and their benefits.


Totally agree on the horse/buggy vs car statement. Always have. Folks move forward.
As needed.
The DI AR provides nothing that wasn't already there and nothing special enough that warrants it. Thats as simple as it can get.

If you WANT one then tahts cool, but there is no reason to HAVE to have one. Especially not for 99% of the folks out there. I'll be arrogant and say that I could be in teh 1% IE folks that really run the snot out of em and can't afford them not to run, but i'll be danged if I've ever had an issue with one that wasn't ammo related. Except an ancient SGW one from the early 80s...
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#6468673 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: CAFR]
FTR_Shooter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 1899
Loc: The Lone Star State
Originally Posted By: CAFR
... In fact, the kit reduces your total part count on the rifle and isn't nearly as fragile or complicated as he reports.


I confess that I know virtually nothing about these piston conversion kits, so I am always open to learning more.

I watched the video and I saw all the new parts, that replace a simple gas tube. So I was wondering how there could be less parts with that piston than on a DI system.

The Osprey web site shows that you get 9 parts with the kit:
1- Op-rod
2- Piston Chamber
3- Roll pin
4- Carrier
5- Piston
6- Valve retaining clip
7- Piston retaining clip
8- bushing
9- Groove pin

This replaces:
Carrier with staked carrier key using 2 screws. It's 4 parts that are treated as 1, I never remove the key.
Gas tube
Roll pin
3 gas rings on the bolt, but I use a MacFarland ring, so one piece.

I'm thinking that saying there are less parts is somewhat misleading. In fact, 9 new parts really replace 4 old parts; to me, that makes it more complicated.

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#6468935 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: FTR_Shooter]
dmsbandit Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/23/09
Posts: 1726
Loc: The Republic of New Yorkistan
As that famous Philosopher Scotty said to Captain Kirk, " the more complicated the plumbing the easier to stop up the pipes". laugh

The KISS principal holds true all over but really needs to be adhered to when your life could be in the balance. More moving parts is not simple, and is more likely to cause issues at the worst time. smirk


Edited by dmsbandit (05/04/12)
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#6469088 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: dmsbandit]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38320
Loc: La Grange, TX
Interesting statement, IIRC the Germans ran into the same thing, to GOOD of engineering and too many parts failed in real life battle.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#6469229 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70608
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
Good video, why does none of this stuff happen to me?
Why did that guy even touch that plunger let alone constantly bang on it? I just pretend the thing doesn't exist.
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#6469240 - 05/03/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: rost495]
XL5 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/15/11
Posts: 648
Loc: East of the Sun, West of the M...
Originally Posted By: rost495
Interesting statement, IIRC the Germans ran into the same thing, to GOOD of engineering and too many parts failed in real life battle.

The Luger pistol was exquisitely well-made but the high quality, low tolerance manufacture made it susceptible to fouling from ordinary dust and grime, so it had to be issued with a holster that kept it fully encapsulated and clean.

For the last 45 years, every trigger puller in the US military has been a field tester for Colt Armament's DI AR15 platform. And it's been standard issue for more than 70 other countries. That's why it's one of the best-developed and most refined weapons platforms on the planet. It has no flaws that aren't already well-documented.

About two months ago, more than sixty years after the fact, Colt finally released their own OpRod AR, which they probably never would have done if the HK416 (and similar) weren't taking market share.
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#6469898 - 05/04/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: jimmyp]
Formidilosus Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/08/09
Posts: 1695
Originally Posted By: jimmyp

Pistons are just something else to sell something to fix a problem that does not exist



For clarity the short stroke piston M4 (HK416) was developed for a reason. That being reliability and service life from the military issued CQBR (10.5 inch M4) suppressed and with extremely heavy firing cycles was less then ideal. You have to understand that in 2003-2004 the issued 10.5in upper for certain military users was not the 10.5 inch guns we have now. We didn't have the buffers, springs, adjustable gas blocks, and fully developed barrels that are available. I have been issued and used the original CQBR, HK416, and current issued MK18 10.5 inch guns. The 416 was the piston guns all other were measured against. And truthfully was the gun all SBR's were judged against for military use. For several reasons that is not necessarily the case anymore.


Unless you need a suppressed, short barrel rifle, for heavy firing cycles, most users would be better served with the standard DI AR15/M4.

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#6469952 - 05/04/12 Re: Gas piston vs. gas impingement [Re: Formidilosus]
kwg020 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 6477
Loc: North of Des Moines
I don't know if this has been discussed but wouldn't developing a cleaner burning powder be more productive than developing more piston rifles?

I'm thinking there is more room for improvement with fewer hassles. I like reloading with Alliant RL10 becuase I get velocity with less powder. Less powder means less carbon residue. Can powder be developed that leaves less residue without velocity loss? Just a thought. kwg
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