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#6195206 - 02/19/12 Help diagnose this group
Pharmseller Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 2179
Loc: Willamette Valley, Oregon
I shot this group today.
7mm-08
120 gr NBT
50.0 gr Ramshot Big Game
CCI 200 primers
Remington brass
Loaded 0.015" off the lands.
100 yards



The fifth shot was from a bit of a warm barrel, but as you can see I'm stumped as to why I'm getting shots touching close to 2 inches apart.

A previous 3 shot group has the same pattern, with two shots touching and a third 0.53" out.

What should I try to tighten the group?


P
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#6195226 - 02/19/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
mcmurphrjk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/05/08
Posts: 3530
Loc: Northern Nevada
Scope good?
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#6195400 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: mcmurphrjk]
SodFarmer Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 61
Loc: Iowa
I would shoot a few more groups with different charges and powders to see if you get a better result. I had a similar experience with one of my rifles and I could not find a powder or a charge that would work. In the end, I switched bullets to a different brand and the problem went away. It could be that your barrel doesn't like that particular bullet.

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#6195412 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: SodFarmer]
rifle Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 5717
Loc: now in SC
What kind of rifle?bedded? scope? good rest? details...
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#6195504 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: rifle]
mjbgalt Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 6586
Loc: ohio
how good was your rest? if you don't have a consistent rest you'll string them like that. use a bag under the buttstock also.
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#6195547 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: mjbgalt]
dye7barrel Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 2227
Loc: Washington
Barrel freedloated? Keep the info coming.

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#6195642 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: dye7barrel]
Pharmseller Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 2179
Loc: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Good rest. Sandbags fore and aft.
Scope - Minox ZA3, Talley lightweight mounts. All screws tight.
Rifle: Weatherby Ultra Lightweight.
Not bedded.
Ultra Lightweights are supposed to like a little upward pressure on the barrel.
Not freefloated.
Fired at 6X.

What bothers me is the consistency of the inconsistency. If the scope or mounts were bad I would expect more variance.

Here's the 3 shot group I fired before the 5 shot group. This group measures 0.93" center to center. After I fired this group I let the barrel cool then adjusted the scope 10 clicks up and 3 clicks left.



P
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We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand, of overwhelming power on the other.
General George C. Marshall, 1942

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#6195791 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10369
Loc: High Country Colorado
Something you'll hear over and over again about "2 in, 1 out" type groups is to try seating in a little deeper. Lots of guys have seen groups shrink and become nice tight little triangles or clusters with that method.

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#6195807 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
Ackleyfan Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 6355
Base screws that are tight don't mean the bases are tight, Bases should be installed 1 screw at a time to make sure the bases are being held tight by both screws!

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#6196098 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Ackleyfan]
Pharmseller Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 2179
Loc: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Ackleyfan
Base screws that are tight don't mean the bases are tight, Bases should be installed 1 screw at a time to make sure the bases are being held tight by both screws!


I'm trying to visualize what you mean and it just isn't happening.

P
_________________________
We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand, of overwhelming power on the other.
General George C. Marshall, 1942

Member #547

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#6196153 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
MichiganScott Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 03/17/06
Posts: 2449
Loc: God's Country
Need to play with the distance off the lands. With that much vertical dispersion the bullet has to be leaving the barrel midway through the cycle instead of at the top or bottom of the oscillation.
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#6196189 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
Kenneth Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 5199
Loc: Edge of the map
I'm surprised people aren't jumping up and down over the

"not free-floated" statement....

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#6196213 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
Karnis Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/20/02
Posts: 11654
Loc: TX & WV
Originally Posted By: Pharmseller
Originally Posted By: Ackleyfan
Base screws that are tight don't mean the bases are tight, Bases should be installed 1 screw at a time to make sure the bases are being held tight by both screws!


I'm trying to visualize what you mean and it just isn't happening.

P


On more than one occasion I have had Talley base screws be too long. It will play hell with your groups if the very front one is touching the threads on the barrel. To check, remove the front screw and peer down the hole with a good light. If it's too long, you will see the shiny spots on the top of the barrel threads.

That will prevent the base from seating even if you tighten it gorilla tight. Trust me on this one............

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#6197570 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
CLB Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 5083
Loc: CT
Is this the same rifle you bought from Wareagle?

Maybe exchange a couple PM's w/him and see what load worked for him and start there.

Have you made ANY modifications to this rifle?

Maybe premature, but don't be afraid to remove the pressure point. After loading and shooting at least 6 bee U/L's I'll say I disagree with your logic.

Do you have your "forward" bag close to the bottom metal? or out really far? If it's too far out (close to stud) you might be placing torque on the tube.

Might also be as simple as your load combo. Do you have any 140's hanging around along with some IMR4350? if so, toss in 46 grains with 140 Nos and give it a whirl...

I'd also start my loads closer and seat deeper as/if I feel i needed to.


Edited by CLB (02/20/12)

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#6197644 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Karnis]
CLB Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/10/08
Posts: 5083
Loc: CT
Karnis has a very good point here and I saw the same exact thing on my pards Weatherby in 7-08 with Talley U/L's. Everything came together quick after that was fixed.


Edited by CLB (02/20/12)

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#6197911 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: CLB]
Bowman44 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 497
Loc: Missouri
I agree with CLB, this seems to be a bedding/pressure issue on the action or barrel most likely. Strange things can happen, but likely its due to different pressures being put on the action or barrel or both. T.S.

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#6198470 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Bowman44]
Popapi Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3345
Loc: Oklahoma City Ok
I'm willing to BET THE FARM you have everything right, to say the least it's the rifle I had a WBY UL in 25-06 that did the same thing no matter what I did I COULD NOT GET IT TO SHOOT..............in turn I sent the rifle to Hill Country rifles to accurized and it came back shooting 1/2" groups with 100grn TSX...... Good luck on your rifle!

http://hillcountryrifles.com/pages/accurizing

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#6198541 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: CLB]
Pharmseller Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 2179
Loc: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Yep, bought it from Wareagle. IIRC he never shot it.
I'm going to check the scope mounts and seat the bullets a little deeper. I'll also remove her from the stock and reattach, paying attention to keeping the barrel centered in the channel.
I'm getting conflicting advice regarding the bedding screws. Some say tighten the rear screw first, some say the front screw first. What this tells me is there is no hard and fast rule.
I'll report back how she does. The next step (if necessary) will be removing the pressure points in the stock.

Thanks all for the help. This is kinda like watching "House."

P
_________________________
We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand, of overwhelming power on the other.
General George C. Marshall, 1942

Member #547

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#6198544 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Popapi]
Pharmseller Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 2179
Loc: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Popapi
I'm willing to BET THE FARM you have everything right, to say the least it's the rifle I had a WBY UL in 25-06 that did the same thing no matter what I did I COULD NOT GET IT TO SHOOT..............in turn I sent the rifle to Hill Country rifles to accurized and it came back shooting 1/2" groups with 100grn TSX...... Good luck on your rifle!

http://hillcountryrifles.com/pages/accurizing


$500.
Hoo doggy that's a chunk of change.

P
_________________________
We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on the one hand, of overwhelming power on the other.
General George C. Marshall, 1942

Member #547

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#6198610 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
1minute Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 16707
Loc: Burns/Hines, Oregon, USA
I'd suggest free floating first. If that does not help then check to see if the bedding is stressing ones action. The way I check that is to install a gridded bore sighter and note the crosshair coordinates. Loosen ones action screws and see if the coordinates change at all. If there is any shift at all, then bed the receiver in a completely relaxed state. Had to do that to a Weatherby Mark V and it came around beautifully.
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1Minute

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#6198672 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: 1minute]
mjbgalt Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 6586
Loc: ohio
i do it like this:

scope, then bedding. then handload shorter or longer.
_________________________
I put Varget on my cornflakes...

inventor of Fart Lok scent control clothing.


THIS IS NOT DRESS REHEARSAL

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#6198742 - 02/20/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: 1minute]
Bowman44 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/16/11
Posts: 497
Loc: Missouri
If you look at what Hill Country Rifles is doing in their accurizing, most of the focus is on THE BEDDING and FREE FLOATING of the barrel. They do recrown and true the action and bolt face, but it would be easy to attack the first two issues without spending $500 and having to be without your rifle for a few weeks. T.S.

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#6200170 - 02/21/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Pharmseller]
Popapi Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 3345
Loc: Oklahoma City Ok
Originally Posted By: Pharmseller
Originally Posted By: Popapi
I'm willing to BET THE FARM you have everything right, to say the least it's the rifle I had a WBY UL in 25-06 that did the same thing no matter what I did I COULD NOT GET IT TO SHOOT..............in turn I sent the rifle to Hill Country rifles to accurized and it came back shooting 1/2" groups with 100grn TSX...... Good luck on your rifle!

http://hillcountryrifles.com/pages/accurizing


$500.
Hoo doggy that's a chunk of change.

P
P, realtalk MOST if not all of this can be done you or by a competent smith! All HC doing is bedding, floating, crowning, working trigger if needed etc. These are the things you MUST address on the LW to get it to perform CONSISTENTLY......... Once this was done on mine it was a wrap Guy, and then and ONLY then I really enjoyed shooting this lil rifle!

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#6200210 - 02/21/12 Re: Help diagnose this group [Re: Popapi]
.280Rem Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/17/05
Posts: 13734
Loc: Alabama
Just my take. I had issues shooting light rifles from the bench. Found I had the snug them up a bit more than my standard wt. rifles or the groups would open up. Agree that some say, and some find, thinner contour bbls like some pressure. Before you go pulling anything apart, try shooting and snugging the rifle in a bit tighter to your shoulder. Make sure you're only pulling back, not putting any pressure down on the stock. If that doesn't help, then I'd look at the bedding and floating or making sure you don't have any unwanted pressure points.
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