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#6198312 - 02/20/12 Elk and the .223.Why not?
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
If the .243 is an Elk killing machine with 95 grain bullets,why wouldn't the .223 with 60-62 grain Nosler and Barnes not be also?

62 grain .223 Federal Fusions penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and I would expect the Nosler and Barnes to go farther.

So why not the .223 for Elk or is the .243 the lowest caliber lethal to Elk without a head shot?

Jayco

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#6198322 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
prairie_goat Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 6845
Loc: Montana
Why not. Shoot an elk in the lungs,with a good bullet. It stumbles off 100 yards and dies.
_________________________
"There is no honor in being simply being a shooter and every honor in stalking close to the animal."

Steve Timm


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#6198345 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: prairie_goat]
Partagas Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 3517
Loc: 44°31'N 109°04'W
because it is illegal in WY to use a caliber smaller than 243 for big game

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#6198377 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Partagas]
PepeLp Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 398
Loc: NM
I knew guys who would fill cow tags with a .223. Opening morning, head shot at under 100 yards.
_________________________
It's all in the reflexes.

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#6198387 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: prairie_goat]
bigsqueeze Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 6355
Loc: So Cal
Even though I disagree with using a 223 for elk, if the 223 were legal for elk in a state and one wanted that challenge, then I would have no reason not to support it.
_________________________
300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger



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#6198405 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: bigsqueeze]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Don't stop with elk. Go kill a water buffalo.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#6198407 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Partagas]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
I realize in some States it is not legal but the huge advance in bullet technology has upped smaller calibers lethal too,several notches from back when.

If a mediocre .223 bullet will penetrate 15" in ballistic gel and expand to .54 caliber,then a well placed shot with a .223 and premium type bullets,should be an Elk killer,just like a 95 grain .243 bullet...Right?

I don't know how many of you guys have been in on penetration test in ballistic gel,but 15" isn't all that bad compared to even some 45-70 jacketed bullets.....Like 3" shy of the 400 grain Swift A-Frame tested by Rick Jamison!

Jayco

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#6198446 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Dan360 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 2213
Loc: Washington State
Its illegal.......

But, if it weren't, I still think that its not appropriate regardless of whether it would work or not. I don't know of anyone who drives railroad spikes with framing hammers. I don't know why anyone would insist on using the smallest caliber possible when there are so many other choices that provide a larger margin of error.

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#6198509 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Dan360]
firstcoueswas80 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 7961
Loc: Arizona
I dont see why one would find it necessary, or even ethical to use such a teeny tiny gun/bullet for such a big strong, tough animal. This type of thread comes up quite often, and honestly it kind of lights a fire under me. I truly do not see the point of wanting to shoot the smallest caliber to take one of the strongets animals in North America, or in general.

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#6198550 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: firstcoueswas80]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
Okay..The difference between the .243 and .223/.224 is .019 in diameter....

Federal Fusion .243/95 grain Fusion is 2980 fps.

Black Hills .223/62 grain TSX is ......3100 fps.

So why will the .243 kill Elk just fine and the .223 won't?My bet is the 62 grain .223/.224 TSX will penetrate as far as the 95 grain/.243 Fusion..Could be wrong and correct me if you have seen different.

I am curious why some may think the .243 is an Elk killing machine and the .223 isn't or can't be atleast equal with todays bullets and loads other than that huge .019 difference in diameter out of the muzzle.

Jayco

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#6198568 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Maybe some of us who think the .223 is lousy for elk. Think the same thing about the .243.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#6198581 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
firstcoueswas80 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 7961
Loc: Arizona
The absolute smallest rifle I would shoot for a elk is a 25-06/257 wby. That is becaue I have seen first hand the 100 TTSX on a elk. It would not be my first choice (first would be my 300wsm).

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#6198635 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
1tnhunter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 2054
Loc: Tennessee
REFERENCE
reference
1. CEN TERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold a maximum of six rounds in the magazine
and chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh minimum 70 grains for deer,
pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact
energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small-game mammals or furbearers with a
centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons
west of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small-game, furbearer or unfilled big-game license is required.
2. FULLY AU TOMATIC

Here's one reason.This is from the Colorado Reg.

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#6198657 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: 1tnhunter]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
I am always interested in other States regs.Thanks,Gravestone,I didn't know that about Colorado...

Not the case in Idaho though, nor am I pushing the .223 for Elk...

Jayco

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#6198696 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
1tnhunter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 2054
Loc: Tennessee
Your welcome. Not sure but i believe most elk inhabited states have a 243 min. requirement. I guess that's way the question of Elk with a 243 is asked on the forums.

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#6198716 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: 1tnhunter]
tipmover Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 1241
Loc: Bull Mtns Montana
The short bus must be closed today being it is Presidents Day?
_________________________
Turn me loose, set me free, somewhere in the middle of Montana!

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#6198746 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: tipmover]
Tom338 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/12
Posts: 37
Loc: Minnesota
Why is it people want to shoot big game with a 223. And the people who have them all want a fast twist barrel so they can shoot 60-70 grain bullets. If you want to play with the big boys grow some stones and get a bigger gun. Would you use a tack hammer to pound in a pole barn spike...The same applies with your firearms. Use the right tool for the job.

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#6198754 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: 1tnhunter]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5762
Loc: Central Idaho
Idaho's says on page 67 of the hunting regs:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov
Big Game Rules
67
Weapon Restrictions
Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
• By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
• With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; Except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
• With any firearm that, in combination with a scope, sling
and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.
• With any fully automatic firearm.
• With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
• With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lions.



Jayco

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#6198849 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: logcutter
Idaho's says on page 67 of the hunting regs:

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov
Big Game Rules
67
Weapon Restrictions
Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
• By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
• With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; Except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
• With any firearm that, in combination with a scope, sling
and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.
• With any fully automatic firearm.
• With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
• With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lions.



Jayco


Must be more than that? What's an approved rifle?

You can't even use a .223 on deer here. Let alone elk.


Edited by Mauser_Hunter (02/20/12)
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#6198978 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
Dog_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/06/07
Posts: 4596
Loc: Wyoming's anal orifice
You could legally shoot an elk (or moose) in ID and/or MT with a .17 Hornet. I wouldn't try it, though I solidly believe 22 centerfires are fine for deer. Elk, I'd be on the fence till I saw it happen a few times.

I am pretty sure Scenar killed a big bull with a 220 Swift, but believe it was a target of opportunity for him while predator hunting, not elk hunting.
_________________________
"Its not the dress that makes you look fat, its the fat that makes you look fat"---Al Bundy

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#6199167 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Dog_Hunter]
elkivory Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 3527
Loc: colorado
seems obvious to me ; what is more important to the user ?
your ego or respect for the animal...easy choice for me.

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#6199195 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Dog_Hunter]
DLSguide Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 318
Loc: Clyde Park, MT
I think that you .223 guys should go hunt Elephants and Cape Buffalo with your little bullets too. Your all nuts!

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#6199232 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: Dog_Hunter]
boomwack Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 474
Loc: The Rockies
In the eyes of the IDFG, an "approved" firearms is just what is typed. Under 16 pounds with all attachments and ammo, cannot be fully automatic, must use 'oo' buck or bigger, no muzzleloading pistol or rimfires with the exception of mountain lions.

Believe it or not, that's it. logcutter had no typo's

First mountain lion I killed was with with my 280. They are commonly shot out of trees range best measured in feet, with .22 rimfires to keep the thin pelt damage to a minimal.
_________________________
happiness is elbow deep in elk guts.
NRA life member

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#6199235 - 02/20/12 Re: Elk and the .223.Why not? [Re: logcutter]
T_O_M Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/07
Posts: 4379
Loc: State of Jefferson
I'm sure if it were legal here I could turn live elk into dead elk with a .223. That doesn't mean I consider it an ideal or even wise choice nor is it something I would recommend to anyone else.

The main thing, at least here, is that elk season is short, 3 - 7 days depending on the tag, and while it's possible to find a situation where a .223 will be just fine, you may not encounter that situation as often as times when something like a .338 will do the job w/o apology.

I haven't reached the point in my elk shooting career where I'd rather wait 10 extra years to get one with a .223 than get one right now with a .338.

Tom


Edited by T_O_M (02/20/12)
_________________________
Anyone who thinks there's two sides to everything hasn't met a M�bius strip.

Here be dragons ...

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