Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Ask John Barsness Questions About "Affordable Handloading."

Hi Folks:

John Barsness's latest exclusive column, "AFFORDABLE HANDLOADING," is on its way to your Inbox. If you haven't received this or previous versions, simply send your email address to rickbin24hourcampfire.com, and request to be on board for future monthly columns.

Here are links to a few select previous columns:


"Bonded Bullets"

"The Vagaries of Rifle Troubleshooting"

"Scope Height"

"Computer Ballistic Programs"

"Reloading Data"

"Triggers"

"Older Hunters, Smaller Rifles"

"Hunting Scope Magnification"

Don't forget to check out John's (and Eileen's ) other stuff at http://www.riflesandrecipes.com.

Many thanks, as usual, John!

John, thanks for the article. I enjoyed it.

I also started on a Lee Loader, though I was in my late 20s, so it didn't last long. But I still use the decapping rod that came with it to fish walnut/corncob media out of the end of my newly shined brass.

I believe you've talked before about sorting brass by neck thickness to improve handloads. You also mention you measured the concentricity of the loaded rounds out of the Lee Loader. Do you think a concentricity gauge is beneficial, or fluff?

I'm also not sure this went out via email, as I normally get the articles fine but didn't receive this one. Others may find it here:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/newsletters/SHOT_2012.html

Sorry to RickBin if we're not supposed to post the link.

A concentricity gauge is truly useful only if you're loading for the absolute finest accuracy in a rifle that will benefit.
Otherwise just rolling loaded rounds across a piece of glass (or other really flat surface) and looking for bullet wobble will tell you if they're our more than .005"--which is all the alignment most typical factory sporters can benefit from.

Have you ever come across one that had a "hard" threshold?

Well, sometimes. How's that for equivocating.

Once did an experiment with an accurate custom 7x57 with a short-throated chamber, using Hornady Light Magnum factory ammo. I bought three boxes and sorted them for bullet runout, divided the best, middle and worst batches into the three boxes. As I recall, the best box had .003" runout or less, the medium box, .004-005", and the worst box over .005".

The best box shot grouped three shots into 1/2" or so, the medium box shot around an inch, and the worst box into 1-1/2". That's pretty typical of a custom rifle, but most factory rifles have looser chambers, and sorting below .005" or so doesn't do much good.

In a really accurate varmint rifle sorting to no more than .003" will help, and in a real benchrest rifle runout of more than .001" (and sometimes even less) will normally show up on the target.

I've been playing with a 6mm PPC benchrest rifle for a few months now, and my Redding Competition dies produce ammo with no more than .0005" runout. With its best load, in neck-sized fire-formed brass, it groups five rounds into around .18" at 100 yards. With new brass the runout runs up to .003" and the groups open up to .3" or so.

The closer the tolerances the better the resolution makes sense to me.

I have a 700 VTR in 308 and it isn't capable of BR or "built" varmint rifle accuracy, but it's pretty darn good for a factory rig in an injection molded stock. It's not as linear as the custom you mentioned, and has a .005" cutoff. Above that it's 1.5 MOA or so for five shots. But .004" and less will pour ten into an inch with many load combinations.

Interesting.

Do you think a custom rifle shoots poor ammo better than a factory stick?

Or do you think the ammo is the limitation in most instances, and you have to have both a rifle that shoots well AND ammo with good concentricity to get 7- or 10-shot MOAish groups?

FWIW, I believe most rifles will shoot MOA for 3-shot groups, but I don't think that tells me much about a rifle.

With good factory rifles it's easy to demonstrate grouping differences where significant runout is the variable. Of course a bad rifle won't shoot anything well. So you'd expect that a good rifle and straight ammo are needed to get a ten shot MOA group. I've read of crooked ammo shooting well, but that's the exceptional case.

I don't know if a custom rig can "force" crappy ammo to do better, but it seems one goal of a custom is to have it shoot everything better than a factory rifle.

Thank you JB for excellent, easy to read and understand articles. They are useful and interesting reading for all of us handloaders, shooters and hunters no matter how long or short time we have been in the business.
Your incredible own knowledge database from which you are sharing information to us is really fantastic and is certainly not second to anyone else.

Thanks!

Great essay. There must be a "Powder Horn" shop in every state. The first real, old school gun shop I went to was the named the "Powder Horn." Learned alot there.

I enjoyed it and am a bit surprised that these type of articles dont generate more talk. I am guessing that this particular forum is made up of the "Choir" so to speak but saving a few bucks on ammo right now is not a bad thing with gas at over 4 dollars a gallon.
I also really like being able to load down and give my kids stuff to shoot that does not kick like a mule. Not much on my local shelves in that department.
Swap meets have been a great place to get basic gear for metalic and shotgun and the deals often include a few extra tidbits that make life easy.
With 3 shotgun presses and two more for rifle\pistol I am running short on bench space. But we are shooting a lot more for sure and the kids love it. My son killed his first mallard and black duck with his own home made steel shot loads. A very cool add on to the experience.
Can casting bullets be far off? Already make sinkers.
My favorite part was the home made funnel.
What is the most likely path to happiness in the cast your own world.

I would think a custom, well built rifle would decrease/eliminate confounding variables, such that one could actually measure just one variable: run out.

In a loose chambered, sloppy rifle, you have nothing but one big ole confounded mess all unto itself...

With one like that, you can't measure much of anything, just observe...

DF

Bob B257,

The best deals I've encountered in casting equipment are made by Lee. Their moulds are limited but pretty darn good; in fact I've used their .45-70 mould to make bullets that grouped 5 shots into an inch at 100 yards from an iron-sighted rifle (though the rifle was a custom High Wall and the sights a very sophisticated tang and front). Have also had good luck with their sizing dies that fit in a typical reloading press, as well as their cheapest electric furnace.

MD,

Excellent!

Thanks

Snake

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i don't seem to be getting these notices any more.
would you kindly reinstate me on the list

thanks

Hi John,

I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but here goes. I just purchased a Savage 99G take-down model made in 1929 and chambered in .303 Savage. I would like to take this rifle hunting. Do you have loads that you can suggest for this rifle? Like you, I am a huge fan of the Savage lever guns and my father has gathered a collection of them.

Thank you in advance,

Brian Webb

Brian,

One of the handy things about the .303 is that powder capacity is the same as the .30-30. Consequently any .30-30 data works great. Most of the .303 users I know shoot 170 round-noses with 4895 or a similar medium-rate powder.

Thank you. I also ordered a box of the old 190gr Winchester Silvertips just to see how they perform.

don't forget the 99's rotary magazine allows pointed bullets
150gr bullets work great for me. I've shot maine whitetails with 125gr pointed bullets too. 2500fps with these is easy to reach
I have 2 G's with 22" barrel and they shoot great with these rounds
if you would like the recipes drop me a pm

plab

JB,
As I start to reload for the 5.56, I read that this cartridge is not suitable for feral pigs here in Kalif....What say you? Thanks.

Maybe California pigs are tougher, but the 5.56 works pretty darn well on Texas pigs!

I've only hunted pigs once in California, a trophy hunt for a big boar, and got lucky with a 250-pounder that had very good tusks. I used a .270, which might be a little better for a trophy hunt, but for general pig hunting the .223 works fine. At least that's my experience, as well as that of quite a few other people.

+1 The 62 grain TSX in the .223 works great on hogs.

The 60 NPT, 65 Gameking and 64 Power point are also good choices. I'd work up loads with these and the various TSX's, shooting the load the gun liked the best.

IMHO,

DF

I use to kill a lot of pigs of all sizes with factory 64gr power points. I never had a problem. We have even dropped a few with the 204 ruger and 45gr spire points. I'm in California.

I've killed hogs and seen them killed with the .17HMR. We use CCI FMJ's from Wal-Mart to get enough penetration.

I have a custom .223 Ruger Ranch Rifle that prefers 65 gr. Gamekings and Ball C. That's a good bullet for hogs, as are TSX's, 60 gr. NPT and 64 gr. Power Point, as you point out.

I haven't used my .204 Ruger on hogs, yet. Barnes has their 26 gr. varmint bullet, but no TTSX's. I'm waiting for them to roll out a TSX or TTSX for the .204. I think that would be a screaming hog killer.

DF

Just this past week a rancher friend of mine in Northern California killed four smaller pigs with one head-shot each with the 17 HMR that he carries on his quad. I don't know what ammo he was using. He carries the HMR for ground squirrels, and shoots many.

These were the first pigs he has shot, as pigs have just started to be a problem on his ranch. I saw what they were doing to his irrigated pasture. What a mess they were making.

My advice to him, stay after them with relentless pursuit. Those things breed faster than he can kill them.

DF

I bought a box of goodies a couple of years ago for $150 from a local guy on Craigslist. A Lee Partner and a smaller RCBS press, both new in the box. A toolkit with a rcbs 505 scale, a hornady powder dispenser, a bunch of rcbs trays and accessoreies, an auto primer tool and bunch of other stuff including several rcbs dies. It also included a couple of hundred rounds of .308 ammo, three harris bipods and a Weaver K15 AO scope (which was on my .308 when I shot a mulie this year.)
I sold the bipods and paid for just about the whole box.
Picked up a RCBS Carbide die set in .45acp, some montana gold jhp bullets, had 100 primers in the toolbox already, cleaned the cases and finally loaded some rounds last week.
Too much fun! Should have started years ago. My little five and three year old grandsons love depriming rounds.
Elkermarty here on the fire has been reloading for me. I consistently get less than moa from everything he has ever loaded for me. Hope I can do as well!
I can see upgrading to a digital scale and some point and maybe a case trimmer. So far so good!

John I have been working on loads for my 700 vtr 22-250. Have tried h.380 and varget with 50 gr. nosler b. tips! I get very close to 1 inch or a little less , but seems to throw a flier on last shot.. (4 shot groups) No trouble loading for my rugers in 220 swift and 257 bob.. Is the vtr a problem , with the triangle barrel? need help been working on this on and off for a year! thanks.
Ozzie

I've shot a few VTR's, and own one, a .204. I haven't seen that with any I've shot, and in fact my .204 will put 10 shots into 3/4" or so, shot as rapidly as possible.

But that doesn't mean an individual barrel can't have a kink in it that unwinds when it gets hot, or that there's some sort of bedding problem.

Have you tried letting the barrel cool between the 3rd and 4th shots? Are you checking for bullet runout?

Thanks, will look over the bedding again, make sure the barrel is cool. It has been to hot this summer to do much shooting ,so now winter is here will get more work done. thanks again.
Ozzie

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Bought a .308 VTR as my bad weather rifle. Didn't want to take my New Haven M70 out in the snow and rain.....yea I know it's just the way I am. Anyway it turned out to be my shoot at everything rifle and shoot pretty well it does. Handloading development is still in it's infancy as I fireform the new brass. I use standard die sets and am curious if the competition Redding bullet seating dies would help. Currently use 165 Sierra BT but would like to try Speer Deep Curls in the same weight range but in my area they aren't as readily available. From an ergo standpoint the rifle "hangs" better than my Featherweight for offhand shooting but I am having a hard time with the push feed. Much smoother than the M70 I am used to and I find myself chamber checking to see if a round really did go in. Last time at the range I got 7/8" groups from the sand bags and for a shaky old fart like me I was pretty happy.

I don't get them anymore either for some reason, I would like to get on the list again too, gmsemelgmail.com

Affordable handloading: this spring I was in need of supplies, so I did a little pencil-pushing out of curiosity. I need some new cases for a few calibers. Well, by the time I buy brass and bullets and other things, it will cost me very close to $1.00 per round to load rifle ammo. Rather than buying cases, I had an opportunity to buy some loaded ammo at $18 per box, so I went that route for a couple deer rifles. I will still handload as I have time, but it is nice to have ammo on hand just in case. Cheap handloading for us this summer is .38 special target loads!

Yep - 38 Special light loads are great fun and inexpensive. I stumbled on a 98% condition S&W Model 64 for $250 and load Berry plated bullets ($95 for 1,000) over 3.5 gr. of Red Dot (that's 2,000 loads per pound. I look for used brass at range stores (about $5 for 100 cases), but can't so anything about primers.

I can shoot 300 round at a time and not break the bank! I've got 4 other 38 Special revolvers, but the M64 is a regular shooter.

Put me back on the list. saldivargeorgeyahoo.com

Allow me to preface this by saying, I was unable to read every post maybe this has been covered.

John, in your article about "scope height" you refer to cant. Are you talking about cant of the rifle scope or cant of the rifle; you mentioned sighting in a rifle and then turning it on its side 90� and having POI shift. To make a long question short I'm wondering about your opinion of a canted rifle below a level scope. There seems to be some debate as to whether a rifles action needs to be precisely level under a precisely leveled Reticle versus a canted rifle under a precisely level Reticle. Now it cannot be debated that a reticle needs to be precisely level in order to have accurate tracking but in my opinion as long as a reticle is level the same every time, it doesn't matter how canted the action (rifle) is.

Consistency in shooting form from range to field; in conjunction with a level reticle will produce consistent accurate shooting regardless of rifle cant, correct?

John,

Have read a few of your articles and posts on runout and sizers. Am thinking of partial FL sizing using either a Forster or Redding die, just bumping the shoulder back .002 or so. This is for a 375 h&h setup to shoot longer range/do everything, not a DG only rifle etc., so longer range accuracy matters. (Planning on 250 TTSX's over 4064 as I can't get RL15, and TTSX's because they seem a harder bullet and they are a little more available to me than accubonds)

In response to one of your articles about how standard expanders pull the necks out of alignment because the body is not supported at the point of expansion, I noted that Forster sets their expander higher up the die to give the case more alignment when pulling over the expander to reduce or eliminate this problem.

Have you seen this to be the case, and will it make that much of a difference in a factory rifle, such that I would buy a Forster die seperately from the Redding seater (can't use the Forster seater because I need to seat compressed loads, and their seater is not good at this according to them). It would be cheaper to just buy the redding set, but if it will make a difference, then I'll split and buy the Forster sizer and Redding seater.

Thanks!

JB:

With any luck, I will soon be the owner of a vintage Savage 99 in .250.
I've read (possibly something by you) that new .250 brass ain't so hot. If so, what's the best brass for forming .250s?
I've read internet chatter that says .22-250 cases come out short and also that 6.5 Creedmores can be run into a .250 die and work okay. What would you recommend?
I tried comparing the SAAMI drawings for the .250 and 6.5 and the length to the neck/shoulder junction of the 6.5 looked too short.

Thanks.

I haven't tried resizing 6.5 Creedmoor brass but it should work very well. It is a little shorter in the neck/shoulder junction but I would guess the resizing of the thicker case body would push the shoulder forward a little.

I haven't had any trouble resizing .22-250's to .250 Savage, but if that turns out to be a problem around 15 grains of Unique, with enough uncooked Cream of Wheat on top to fill the case to the base of the neck, plus a "wad" made of paper towel or a medium-sized bore patch, will fireform the .22-250's to your .250 Savage chamber.

John,

Do you have a brand preference for the .22/250 cases? Do you run them through the .250 die before lighting off the Unique/c.o.w. Load?

I did win the auction for the 99. Looks like maybe a 1950ish model with a 2.5 Lyman Alaskan All Weather in Stith mounts. Very Retro! Might have to buy a red coat (already got the Bean boots). I hope the scope's okay, but if not, there's always the Marble's tang sight.

Thanks for the help.

Gary

Yes Sir ; Over the years I have greatly enjoyed and benefited from your articles.
I also started reloading with a Lee Loader. Loading for my 303 British. I've done quite a bit of loading with Lee Loaders for carts up to 458 Win Mag. . . I also very much appreciate your down to earth approach to things like how to get brass for my then new 6.5 Creedmoor. The round I have decided is the ultimate Interior Alaska Winter cartridge. Coupled with a Ruger M77 mk2 All Weather Hawkeye and the right bullet for the game shot.

The COW method works incredibly well and gives the benefit of semi dry fire practice out doors :-) .
Thanks for sharing your articles.

John,
What is going on with Speer's Deep Curl bullets? The ones I purchased had a note inside the box not to use them unless there is Speer load data for the cartridge you're reloading.

So I called them and the individual I talked with from Speer was
concerned if I loaded these bullets (Speer hasn't gotten around to providing load data for the 338-06). Of course, he also refused to tell me why or what the danger is.

You wouldn't happen to know what they mean by "conventional reloading data... should not be used to load DeepCurl bullets?

The last I checked, it is always preferable to use data from the bullet and/or powder mfr. And that is about as "conventional" as it gets.

I'm using IMR4320, IMR 4064, & Hodgdon's Hybrid 100V for 225gr
(.338) bullets; Std LR primers and Norma brass. My target MV
is 2575 on the low side to 2600 on the high side.

Thanks,
DS

I dunno either. Used to know somebody who'd worked there for years (in fact he wrote the last manual) but he retired and many things at Speer seem to be considered top-secret these days.

A reasonable guess, however, would be that Deep Curls produce somewhat more pressure than other bullets of the same weight, whether due to the relatively soft cores, longer bearing surface, or whatever, so might be a little touchy when used with data for other bullets. If they resulted in less pressure, there wouldn't any concern. But as I noted, don't really know.

Do know they list data for Deep Curls on their website, but it doesn't seem all that different than data for other bullets from other companies.

Mr. Barsness, I picked up in a trade over 500 .224 FMJ that are Moly coated, I have heard horror stories about moly and barrel pitting. Should I shoot 'em and go on, try to remove the moly coat, or trade 'em, what say you, has moly been a problem in your experience? They would be shot in a 10" .22 Hornet Contender barrel for IHSMA Field pistol and NRA Hunter pistol, so they would not be a normal Hornet velocities.

bcraft,

The only real "problem" I've seen with moly-coated bullets is they make other bullets shoot weird out of the same barrel--unless you clean the moly out before shooting other bullets, which isn't all that hard.

The stuff can apparently be hydroscopic, which is what causes the supposed pitting, but since I live in dry Montana I've never seen that aspect of it.

Thank you.

Is there any way to access the links at the beginning of this thread? They all seem to be dead.

Thanks

I'd like to read them too.

All the links are no go for me too


I would like to read them

and I as well.

God Bless

John I shoot a 220 swift; would like to get a way from imr 4064,shooting 55gr bullets what powder could I go to? Thank you for any help!

Can't access links either.

IMO as not-a-gunwriter, and definitely in the category of picking nits, issues surrounding scope mounting relative to the shooter and rifle are most important relative to getting a well aimed shot off quickly in the field from a standing position.

With this being the goal, regarding "cant" I agree with Iclimb. The issue is achieving consistency consistent with minimizing time-to-well-aimed trigger pull.

First, note that with most people with most factory rifles, the action of a rifle will be somewhat canted when mounted quickly to its most comfortable position on the shoulder. Canted or not, this position is that most easily repeatable with haste and most amenable to being locked into muscle memory.

The only way to insure the action is uncanted in this position is to fit the stock to the shooter to compensate. In my case, about 1/2" of cast-off with an additional 1/2" of toe-out cant in the butt stock trues the action of a quickly mounted rifle to gravity. Most of us most of the time make do with a rifle not fit with precision to our body. This means it most likely will be canted to some degree when quickly mounted to its most comfortable position.

Second, human eye is really, really good, at judging verticality of a straight line and does so unconsciously. If you doubt this claim, tilt a hung picture slightly and watch how people who may enter the room react. Rotate a scope slightly in its mounts and you create a powerful unconscious force that will cause the rifle to be canted by the shooter until the reticle is true with gravity. If this eye-induced rifle cant is at odds with any body-fit-induced cant (as it is likely to be if the scope reticle is blindly trued to the bore), achieving repeatable aim will be more difficult and take longer.

IMO, the rifle should be allowed to fit the body the way it most naturally, cant or no cant. The scope should then be trued (rotated in the mounts) until it is perceived as vertical. This makes the info from the eyes conform to info from the muscles. I think all this allows a practiced shooter to get an aimed shot off about 1/2 second quicker than otherwise might be the case.

One of the major issues that has plagued reloaders in the past 5 years has been the high price of bullets. Yes there are ways around this by casting, buying from Campfire members and so on. But the real crunch has been the high price of bullets as the single most expensive item in the process. (assuming you use your brass multiple times.) In 2010 the prices rose due to the price of commodity copper which peaked at approximately $4.60/lb. Today the prices are back down to $2.60/lb, which is at 2006 levels, yet there has not been any decrease in the price of the bullets from the big makers. Currently unless absolutely necessary I am not buying new bullets and slowly working off my inventory, hoping at some point we will see some relief. Maybe there are those here that have some insight into this situation.

Thanks for your many years of fine work! And there actually is a question here.

As to "affordable reloading", I think I paid about $7 for a medium sized, quite dusty, mystery box weighing about 50# at an estate auction. The auctioneer was being cute. But the departed had been an avid shooter and I guessed that even if it was just lead, such a heavy box had to contain at least $7 worth of good. Inside was a disassembled (but OK) Rock Chucker press and about 1,500 vintage 1960's Nosler, Speer, and Hornady bullets, most in unopened boxes. Not bad!

Maybe 500 bullets were various 30 caliber bullets which kept me in cheap plinking ammo for several years and the rest were 100, 117, and 120 grain 25 caliber rifle rounds. I did not then own anything in 25 caliber and those bullets kept nagging at me as having a crying need to be shot!

So, as you might guess, maybe 10 years later, a few weeks ago I journeyed in a blizzard to another estate (gun) auction in a small farming town. Judging by the price tags on gunshow tables at least, I got a bidding better than BOGO on a pair of uncut, untapped, and unswiveled 1899s in 25 caliber that cleaned up real nice. One is an A in 25-36 (1910) complete with a Lyman 1A and #5 Combination globe sights (special order) and the other is F (a take-down) in 250-3000 (1921) with standard sights. Did I mention Lyman dies at $6 per set?

Anyway, you can imagine how excited I was at finally being able to cash in my $7 investment (less press) investment in 25 caliber bullets.

The 25-35 shoots beautifully, albeit anemically, with all the several versions in my inventory. But much to my chagrin, the 250 will make a thumbnail group just starting to keyhole at 50 yards and prints oblong holes about improved cylinder at 100. 100 Grain Nosler Solid Bases almost make round holes at 50 yards but still upset by 100.

Anyway, only after swearing at the targets did I recall your comments about twist rates in the early 250-3000's. Mine truly is about 1 in 14" while the 25-35 (which handles even the 120 grain just fine) is probably > 1 in 10". I guess I gotta buy some #!&%% lighter weight (but much more expensive) 25 caliber bullets for the 250-3000.

So, my question: What bullet do you recommend as stabilizing well in a slow twist 250-3000? Ideally, it will be accurate, tough enough for a White Tail, and CHEAP!

The 87-grain Speer Hot-Cor spitzer is designed for that very purpose.

I am obviously not John, but I would try either Ramshot Big Game or Reloader 15. Some folks claim 760/414 is the way to go, but it did not give good accuracy for me.

I'm not JB either but, I went to IMR 4451. I don't see velocity loss when it's really cold, which I saw with IMR 4064. I never had a problem with high temps. In my experience the "copper eraser" really works.
The Enduron IMR 4166 is just a hair faster than 4064 and seems accurate in my 308.
Scuttlebutt is that Enduron powders are made by General Dynamics in the US rather than ADI Australia. I dont' really know.
If they made an Enduron at IMR 4895 speed, It would become my "everything" powder.

The Endurons are made by General Dynamics, but in the Quebec plant in Canada.

I doubt they'll produce an Enduron of the same burn-rate as IMR4895, since 4166 is so close. But then I didn't see any real place for an Enduron between 4451 and 7977!

You could give Alliant's new AR-Comp powder a try. A rep for Alliant on another site claims AR-Comp is temperature stable, contains a decoppering agent, and falls very close to the IMR 4895 burn rate.

No personal experience with it myself, but I like the trend of newer, temperature resistant powders with decoppering agents added...

Is H322 a good substitute for AA2015BR? I used 53.5gr/2015BR/250X in my 22" 35 Whelen AI for 2600. I've never tried anything else with his particular bullet, but this was way back in '95! I read up that, for all practical purposes, the newer 2015 is pretty much the same thing. I use H322 with my most used load, 58gr/200x & TTSX and have a good stock. Can I use it if I start out around 50gr/250 and work up slowly? I get great results with Nosler & Speer 250s, but with 61gr R15, which "supposedly" I right @ 64+K . I think I'd like to replicate my older load for my current use. Any suggestions? Thanks.

Hodgdon lists 54.0 grains of H322 as maximum with the Speer 220-grain in the .35 Whelen, and 52.0 with the 250 Hornady Spire Point. There isn't all that much difference in capacity in the .35 Whelen AI, but there's enough that you could safely start at those maximums and see what velocity results.

Thank you sir! I gave some thought to this Whelen AI. I had some friends do the Quick Load pressure prediction with all my data. Turns out I was wrong and you were right about higher velocity in that it only comes by higher pressure. My loads for the past 21 yrs have been the 53.5/2015 250X2600 (70K) R15/55 310 @2424 (almost 71K) I only used H322 58gr/200X but at 2970fps (no workup for pressure, but I got to be high) an R15/61gr with 250 NP&Seer @2750 (aso oe 70K) Bummer. My primer pockets stayed tight, bolt lift is easy and primers looked fine. IOWs...that Ackley had me fooled, ha. So...I'm having this Mod 700 converted to 358 Norma. I love the velocities and those bullets on game...but not gambling any more. So I apologize for taking exception to your article on the Improved cartridges, ha

Have any of you guys used or seen used the 358 Norma mag on game? I decided to have my rifle converted to magnum (open bolt face/M16 extractor/magnum magazine follower) and rebarreled instead of rechambered. I'm going with a #4 Shilen at 24", comes with a 1 in 14" twist. I will be focusing mainly on 200 to 225 TSX/TTSX at first. No big bears for me, but I sure like thumping elk hard! ha