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#6202606 - 02/21/12 Rhino's
conrad101st Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 1446
Loc: OK
Interesting article on Rhinos:

http://rockcenter.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20...ival-of-species

All most makes you want to take your vacation and put together 4 man hunter killer teams and start wiping out the poachers without mercy. Maybe it would make a good humanitarian sabatical for ex-military guys. On par with doctors doing Doctors Without Borders.
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#6202693 - 02/21/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: conrad101st]
rxgremlin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 73
It is really sad. The Asian market has driven this senseless slaughter because of the mistaken belief that powdered rhino horn is a panacea for everything that ails you. They think it is particularly good for erectile dysfunction.

The photo safari lodge I went to last year has stopped reporting any sightings of rhinos in their newsletter and the rangers are worried that they are going to be put in a position where they are going to be forced to kill poachers.

The hunting lodge I stayed at in Namibia works with the government to be a safe haven for black rhinos but there have been reports of unmarked aircraft flying low over the area.

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#6202800 - 02/21/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: rxgremlin]
acooper1983 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 2487
Loc: Midwest
poaching for horns should be punishable by death, no ifs ands or buts about it. If its for food for starving kids fine, but not just to kill a rhino for its horn.
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#6204710 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: acooper1983]
PieterKriel Offline
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Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 1080
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Two nights ago they finally hit a friends farm. 2 adults and a sub-adult were slain. Poor baby was running around scaredvsenseless. I agree with the death penalty.
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#6205000 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: PieterKriel]
conrad101st Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 1446
Loc: OK
It pisses me off beyond belief. I hunt and am no tree hugger, but some things are just not right. The poachers shoud all get the African Tire death penalty.


Edited by conrad101st (02/22/12)
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#6205147 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: acooper1983]
safariman Offline
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Registered: 06/18/05
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Originally Posted By: acooper1983
poaching for horns should be punishable by death, no ifs ands or buts about it. If its for food for starving kids fine, but not just to kill a rhino for its horn.


More than one of my hunters that I sent to Zim were asked to help shoot poachers. Yeah, as in dead. One did, and thought it a great add to the Safari. One of the reasons I quit sending anyone over there and left the business.
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#6205310 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: rxgremlin]
Tophet1 Offline
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Registered: 08/03/09
Posts: 496
Loc: Qld. Australia
Originally Posted By: rxgremlin
It is really sad. The Asian market has driven this senseless slaughter because of the mistaken belief that powdered rhino horn is a panacea for everything that ails you. They think it is particularly good for erectile dysfunction.



That maybe correct but I believe most Horn ends up in Yemen as Dagger handles.

While we should support anti-poaching efforts financially and moraly, leave it to the locals.

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#6205631 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: Tophet1]
rxgremlin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 73
That may have been partially true in the past but that isn't what is happening today. The Vietnamese and Chinese are the biggest players in the market now. No amount of evidence is going to convince them that what amounts to fingernails has no medicinal properties whatsoever. As for leaving it to the locals that is a big part of the problem.

Local PHs, veterinarians, and helicopter pilots in SA have been arrested for participating in rhino poaching. In fact one of the worst offenders is a guy named Dawie Groenewald who used to run Out of Africa Safaris.

You can look it up but he used to exhibit at SCI and many people were very upset that he has even allowed there. He had been suspected of illegal activities for years and even when presented with proof SCI turned a blind eye.

Give me an FN-FAL and I will supply the plane ticket.


Edited by rxgremlin (02/22/12)

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#6205661 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: acooper1983]
hatari Offline
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Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 9236
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: acooper1983
poaching for horns should be punishable by death, no ifs ands or buts about it. If its for food for starving kids fine, but not just to kill a rhino for its horn.


I know what you are saying, but really sport hunters hunt rhinos for the horn too, just legally.

Nobody is going to kill a rhino to feed starving kids. There is too much other protein around around that is simpler to obtain.
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#6206037 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: safariman]
conrad101st Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 1446
Loc: OK
Originally Posted By: safariman
More than one of my hunters that I sent to Zim were asked to help shoot poachers. Yeah, as in dead. One did, and thought it a great add to the Safari. One of the reasons I quit sending anyone over there and left the business.


Sounds very colonial doesn't it - putting the natives to death and calling it added sport?

Reminds me of the classic movie The Naked Prey, except the roles reversed. Now Bwana is the one protecting the lands and nature.


Edited by conrad101st (02/22/12)
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#6206067 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: conrad101st]
jorgeI Offline
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Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 24035
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Originally Posted By: conrad101st
Originally Posted By: safariman

More than one of my hunters that I sent to Zim were asked to help shoot poachers. Yeah, as in dead. One did, and thought it a great add to the Safari. One of the reasons I quit sending anyone over there and left the business.


Sounds very colonial doesn't it - putting the natives to death and calling it added sport?


love it....
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#6206568 - 02/22/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: jorgeI]
acooper1983 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/13/10
Posts: 2487
Loc: Midwest
colonial or not, the natives will try and kill everyone of them, something we as hunters/conservationists cannot allow. If it takes a little poacher's blood to save such a grand species, so be it. Anyone wants to supply a plane ticket, and a M4, i have no problem taking care of business, remember they'd shoot you first if they had the chance.
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#6208869 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: acooper1983]
gmsemel Offline
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Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 5643
Loc: East Haddam, CT
The answer to this is simple its called Viagra. The whole thing about Rhino horn in traditional Chinese Medicine is about erectile dysfunction, and Viagra takes care of that. And for about 1.50 a hard on. As for the Rhino's there are on the slow road to extinction and there is nothing anybody is do about it. Its like the Tiger, I been hearing how the tiger is on its last legs for 50 years now, send us money to protect the tiger. Yea, just another scam. The only Way Rhino's are going to still be around is if the locals decide its worth more to them to have them in the bush than dead. Heck how much money have they poured into the California Condor? Or in My neck of the woods, restoring Atlantic Salmon to the Connecticut River Drainage? Never mind that that distinct race of fish has been gone for over 200 years. I would love to get a chance to hunt Rhino, and Elephant too, but I was born 90 years to late for both.
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#6209762 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: gmsemel]
rxgremlin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 73
The white rhino is perhaps the greatest conservation success story in Africa. At the turn of the 20th century there were about 50 left in the world but today there are about 20,000. I don't think that constitutes a scam or a failure.

There are many dedicated people all over southern Africa who are working hard to make sure that the pendulum doesn't swing back the other way.

There is no simple answer to this problem. You are not going to convince a die hard consumer of traditional Chinese medicine that Viagra works better and is cheaper. I see it every day of my professional life; people allow personal beliefs to trump actual evidence. As long as there are people stupid enough to subscribe to such bullshit a market will exist for rhino horn. And there will be people who will take the risk to cash in on the trade.

So the question remains as how best to combat the problem. Do you send patrols out in the bush to combat the poachers or do you surgically remove the horns or even inject the horn with poison so the end user gets their just desserts? I don't know but I do know that it isn't too late. Too many people have worked too hard for too long to give up.

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#6210347 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: rxgremlin]
Shakari Offline
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Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 1005
Loc: Retired from the Professional ...
I think there is an easy answer to it..... maybe not politically correct and it'd sure tick a few people off but the easy answer is to move every rhino out of Africa and move them to a safe place and then sell some to the chinese/vietnamese etc and allow them to farm the species just as other species are farmed. Hell, you could even let them play genetics and breed 2 headed rhino if they wanted to.

Then once the pressure is off just reintroduce the rhino back to Africa.

I appreciate that solution isn't perfect but I reckon it's the only one that'll work and if it's not taken up, my bet is we'll see the end of rhino hunting within a very few short years and the end of the rhino shortly thereafter.

On the subject of using rhino horn as an aphrodisiac, I can guarantee it doesn't work.......because I've tried it.

No matter how well you tie the darned thing on, it just falls off because it's too heavy to stay in place! smile
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#6210413 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: Shakari]
EvilTwin Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 18499
Loc: Upstate NY
confusedWHY on earth would ANYONE want to cure erectile dysfunction in Chinese???? I should think it would be better to find something to cause permanent ED in Chinese. Already plenty enuff of them. I like rhinos a lot better in most cases anyhow grin
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#6210425 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: EvilTwin]
dvdegeorge Offline
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Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 17366
Loc: Western N.Y.
grin
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#6210552 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: dvdegeorge]
Shakari Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 1005
Loc: Retired from the Professional ...
On the subject of shooting poachers: Anyone who considers such things should also consider what their life will be like once inside an African jail and anyone daft enough to discuss or admit such things on a public forum shouldn't be surprised if they get a knock on the door from the cops or other Govt authority.

The old triple rule (shoot, shovel & STFU) is well worth observing........ esp the last part.
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Have you swept the visioned valley with the green stream streaking though it?
Searched the vastness for a something you have lost?
Have you strung your soul to silence? Then for God's sake go and do it
Hear the challenge, learn the lesson, pay the cost

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#6210724 - 02/23/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: Shakari]
BigDaddyT Offline
New Member

Registered: 02/23/12
Posts: 2
One of the main "new drivers" in the trade in rhino horn is the ridiculous theory that it can help treat cancer.

Kind of liked the one gals approach on the show last night of making the horn toxic so that if you were to injest one of the rhino horns under her management it would basically kill you.

Different approach.....

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#6216645 - 02/24/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: BigDaddyT]
Flinch Offline
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Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 5794
Loc: Utah, U.S.A.
I might be a bit ignorant to the biology of rhinos, but couldn't the horns be surgically removed or at least cut down to the "nub" to make them less or not desirable at all? They do it to goats, sheep, cows etc. I have seen and heard that they need them to protect themselves and fight, but really, the horns don't provide much in that respect.

Killing the poachers and pirates really is the only solution. Flinch
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#6216916 - 02/25/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: Flinch]
JJHACK Offline
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Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 7590
Loc: Touchet Wa. & Ellisras South ...
The White or "wide" rhino is far from extinction and is not really threatened. Almost every concession has one for the visual effect of the bush, and the occasional dart hunt. Countless concessions have a few to as many as a dozen. They move the bulls around from farm to farm for breeding and darting.

The Blacks or hooklip are on the rise in a big way as well. Certainly not in the numbers the white rhinos are at but it will get there. The main difference in the reason is that the whites are more docile and functional on a hunting concession. Although not to be fooled with, they have destroyed several vehicles on ours.

The blacks have a more notable irritability, and much more mobile skill set. They become more of a concern in the bush for the hunters and workers. For this reason they are not as in demand. Further the Nature Conservation has significantly more regulation for ownership. Nonetheless there are more and more places that are seeing the Black Rhino on private hunting concessions. This will be where the future is at. Private ownership on hunting lands will be where the success comes from. There will be hunting opportunities for the black rhino in RSA. Big old bulls beyond breeding age that can fetch enough money to support anti poaching and additional breeding projects.

Fortunately there are enough people willing to part with 250k-USD for the chance to harvest one. This may look silly to some, shooting a species which is on the brink, but its a proven method of a harvestable surplus to support the recovery effort.
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#6217246 - 02/25/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: JJHACK]
safariman Offline
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Registered: 06/18/05
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Well said, as usual, and correct on all points as far as a species needing to supprot ittself with hunting income to be sustainable long term in the third world.

Wish I had the bucks to hunt one someday, but will substitute a Hippo to make my personal 'big five' a reality. They kill far more people than Rhino's each year anyway.
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#6217519 - 02/25/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: safariman]
JJHACK Offline
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Registered: 01/30/01
Posts: 7590
Loc: Touchet Wa. & Ellisras South ...
Remember that a Rhino dart hunt is far more of a challenge then killing one. It also qualifies you for the big five by SCI rules.

I think this was a brilliant move by SCI, why kill a white rhino when you can have an even bigger challenge to dart one at 30 yards. It then gets to live to provide another hunt for somebody else.

They only accept the entry for rhinos dated twice per year maximum. They don't want the same bulls being darted every month for income. Also the horn changes size frequently with growth and wear, so the same rhino in darted in Jan will very likely have a different size horn in October.

We darted an old bull that ranged in score by 3-5" every other year. He was only darted once per year. It's expensive to dart them, but a long shot cheaper then killing one!
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#6217911 - 02/25/12 Re: Rhino's [Re: BigDaddyT]
Mule Deer Offline
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Registered: 07/24/01
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Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
As BigDaddyT noted, the latest demand for rhino horn is eing driven by a rumor that it cures caner. Viagras had made a big dent in the "traditional" medicinal market, but the cancer rumor went Internet viral and the price for horn skyrocketed.

I hunted the Selous Reserve in Tanzania last September and the head game scout in camp told me they're guarding the remaining black rhinos 24 hours a day. We ran into a party of half a dozen poachers midway through the hunt, disappearing into the bush. An anti-poaching team caught them the next day and killed five out of the six.
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