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So essentially, when used properly, regardless of brand when we are looking into these high end shelters, proper use is of utmost importance. Weird, that would be the case......

Evan, thanks for the information on staking out etc. A BCS is in my future, as well as a Breakaway tarp.

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What exactly are the ...military stakes... you mentioned and where might one buy some of these?

So far, the best I have found are the 9ish inch steel pins from REI and the Coghlans longer ones with the little orange doodads on their top ends.

I would really like to be able to stake and totally trust my Kifaru 8-man and would like to find some better stakes than those I now have. The stuffsack-deadman method is OK, but, it is not that easy in many conditions and I would prefer stakes.

I have one of the original Chouinard Pyramids made even before the Megamids were introduced and it is very stout, but, mine is worn on the bottom edges with the polyurethane peeling a bit and it is that depressing dark blue, which I really dislike.

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I have a tipi myself, but I'm still learning exactly how to and how not to pitch it. I'm also curious about the stakes that you like so well. Do you have a link? Also I'd be interested in some info on the do's/dont's of pitching. It just seems hit or miss for me to get it right. When I do, it's great, but I've never really pinned it down as to what I'm doing wrong when it's not taught when standing. Also setting up on a bit of a slope seems to throw me off a little too. Tips?


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Evan,

You are spot on as far as the importance of staking. I also like the Coghlans knockoffs as well as MSR Groundhogs and I just picked up some of the new MSR Cyclone stakes. At 10" with the twist pattern they should hold very well.
http://www.rei.com/product/829839/msr-cyclone-tent-stakes-4-pack

An important pice with stakes, is to pound them into ground leval or slightly below when ever you can. That is why I carry a variety of stakes and lengths as the ground can vary in a single pitch.


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These are the military stakes I like:
http://www.mcssl.com/store/aamsusa/catalog/product/c8ea453c342047eaa9a70e2ca4c5ed7d

In my case, the local surplus store has them in 9" and 12" lengths. For staking the 12 man in most conditions, I use (4) of the 9" ones for the first 4 stakes, and then the 9" coghlans ground hog knock offs for the rest. In the case of the sloppy snow described above, I really wanted *all* 12" ones. I suspect I'd feel the same about sand. The 9" ones are 2oz apiece, so they add up. That's why I try to minimize using them as much as possible. But when you need a solid stake, you need a solid stake. I've typically got at least one, just in case.

My method for tipi pitching is straightforward and no hassle. It is based on the Kifaru method, but varies somewhat from how I've watched Patrick pitch tipis. Just need to know the setbacks. In the case of an 8 person SO, the initial setback is 4 feet if I remember correctly. Then the side setbacks are each 1 foot I think. In the case of the Kifaru 12 man it's 6 9" stake lengths and 1 9" stake length on each side. Here's the procedure:

- stake down the back door
- pull the front door loop all the way taut
- measure your length setback back from the taut distance
- stake the front door at your setback distance
- pull the sidemost stake loops all the way taut
- set them each back the side setback length and stake them
- put the center pole in place and re-zip the door
- stake out each of the four stake loops that are the midpoints between the stakes you've just driven. in each case, pull them as taut as you can. (on the SO 8 man, you can't go directly between them. Choose one of the nearest ones to center and go with that)
- now that all 8 of your anchor stakes are in and pulled tight, go around and put stakes in the rest of the loops, pulling taut each time. No need to alternate or anything like on the first 8. Just go around in a circle.

Using this method, the only thing you have to remember is two setback measurements (which you can remember as stake lengths), and then everything else just gets pulled taut. No measuring out from the center pole at specified intervals, no pulling out and re-staking stakes, no trying to pull the edge at a certain angle. This has always given me a quick taut pitch.

Last edited by evanhill; 02/29/12. Reason: stake specs
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DIY

Levelness matters a lot. Think of it as a right triangle, where 1" makes a big difference in tension. I often use tensioners to compensate for ground irregularities, but I use them minimally, perhaps 4 per tent, and in winds higher than 30 I try to avoid them. I use them in low spots to compensate.

I'm not sure how your tie out is constructed, but you could use a little para with a taughtline for adjustment.

Stake selection would be an excellent article / blog post etc if someone is interested. It varies so much. In loose ground having better depth is better than more surface area, in some areas though where the soil is not deep then surface area matters most. In loose snow some things can be used, but in snow over frozen ground it's another challenge. I use concrete screws when our ground is really frozen and snow depth is minimal. When snow is deep and soft I probably prefer buried anchors with adjustment lines. Sometimes I have used stuff sacks filled with rocks. I left a BCS up for a week with nothing but stuff sacks and rocks. They would move in higher winds, but I could have thrown in more rocks.

There are some articles on backpackinglight on stakes but most require an account.




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Anyone ever play with SMC snow stakes?

Also, anyone ever use a mountaineering snow picket or two to reinforce a tipi set up?

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The Portland Oregon Craigslist has an ad under sporting goods for the stakes and sets of the camo net supports.

I have purchased stakes from him before and he is good to deal with. He owns and manages an RV storage yard and he and his brother got a pipe of the stuff as they had storage room.

I am trying to get a deal on some camo net support kits for use with wall tents but he wants a bit too much for them.

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TAK, I've tried to use the SMC snow stakes a few times over the years and have never been impressed with them. I've got a half dozen out in the garage. They've been in production so long I keep wondering what I'm not understanding. Never tried pickets. Skis work pretty well, but then you're stuck without transportation.

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Originally Posted by evanhill
TAK, I've tried to use the SMC snow stakes a few times over the years and have never been impressed with them. I've got a half dozen out in the garage. They've been in production so long I keep wondering what I'm not understanding. Never tried pickets. Skis work pretty well, but then you're stuck without transportation.


What little bit I used them on spring ski trips in AK they worked great. Always below freezing and really powdery snow with a crust that late usually.

On second thought I can see how they would be problematic for a tipi because you have to drive them and let 'em "freeze" through the holes in the stake before you load them. That really wouldn't work for a tipi. Might work for guyouts, if you could wait to load them.

If I was on skis with a sled I would strongly consider mountaineering pickets. A light weight engineered product.

I've driven many of those GI issue stakes into frozen tundra setting up that POS boat anchor arctic squad tent.

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I have used the long SMC snow stakes and they work OK if the snow is really packed well. I use something longer for at least the 4 main anchor points though. I have also used aluminum deadmen. I have a homemade set of SST pins that are longer than the Kifaru's that work well in certain conditions.

How well stakes work is so dependant on location. In some areas, all I can get in is a Vargo Ti nail stake and at times I have tied out to large rocks when camping in southern Utah.

Like Evan said the use of skis or ski poles limites travel options unless you are moving each night.


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Just spent the weekend in a BCS. Haven't had time to write up my initial impressions yet, but suffice it to say I'm very impressed with Seekoutside construction.


Your impressions of the BCS please.

I mentioned the importance of staking on another forum but, that was taken as blasphemy. I had questioned an Olympic god.

Bushcraft says reviews are only as good as the people reviewing them. I say they are only as good as the people reading them. One has to be able to think a bit for himself. In my case that is very little. I look forward to your unbiased impressions. Thanks


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I look forward to your unbiased impressions.


Everybody has biases they bring into an evaluation. Like any good anthropologist (my college degree), I'll do my best to state my biases up front so folks can take those into account when evaluating my review.

My review of the BCS is going to be a long term thing, but I will get initial impressions up as soon as I can. Just right now, I'm working two almost full time jobs. Time is in short supply, but I plan to get to it this week.

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I'm working two almost full time jobs


What are you going to do with all that money?

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I look forward to your unbiased impressions.




OK let me rephrase that. I know who you are and I know you go way out there to camp and hunt. Kinda like the places I go so I am interested in your impression be it biased or unbiased.

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Can anyone (Kevin mainly) give a Cliff Notes version of the general differences between the discontinued 4-man and the current 3-man tipi? I'm curious because it appears there are still some 4-man tipis available and the weight difference doesn't seem too significant. Thanks, and sorry to hijack the stake discussion.
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Here is the explanation that Kevin gave me a little while back. Essentially with the introduction of the BCS they didn't want competing products in their own line up. The 3 is hard to beat for what it offers/price, and you can see from some of the pictures on their sight that you can get 4 in there if you HAD to. So in doing my research for my own tipi the number should be cut in half, especially if you get a stove.

After talking with Kevin for a while I have decided that the BCS is what I am going to buy. With the Breakaway Tarp in what is doghouse mode I can put all of my gear out there, or even set it up with the awning for an extra bed space for someone. Essentially the versatility of the BCS would be better than the 4, for pretty close to the same price with the optional features of the BCS.

The disadvantage for me is simply that I am going to have to save up a little bit more cash before i can purchase it with the extra panel. But I feel that I can fit 3 in there for sleeping when necessary, or haul the Vertex 5 if I need more space or the tarp for the system they planned.

Hope all that helps.


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I said *working* two almost full time jobs, not *earning* two almost full time wages. One of the jobs is mostly a time investment in the future right now.

At any rate, the review is done and located here.

I'm going to try to keep all of my ongoing BCS review material including questions and answers consolidated in one place, which is over there.

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Good review, thorough.
I thought the center height was 7'?

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It is 7 ft
We are in Missoula this weekend hope to see u there


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Thanks sreekers. That does help.

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