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#6302075 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Maverick940]
BrentD Offline
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Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 11730
Loc: MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA
No, there is a fair bit. A lot of folks that are not TAM have been involved in this and you can search around for a pretty fair literature on it. They do hybridize in the wild where red wolves have been reintroduced.
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#6302103 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Talus_in_Arizona]
CCCC Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 5038
Loc: New Mexico High Country
Quote:
Wouldn't wolves eat a coyote rather than breed with it?


Who knows what a wolf would "rather" do, but seems like a lot depends on that day's difference in basic drives. If hunger is stronger and the wolf can get the coyote, that is one thing. If the mating drive is stronger, that is another.

Same goes for dogs in this area. Rather recently, the "wolf experts/managers" down this way exterminated a bunch of pups pulled from a den because they were hybrids and would have "corrupted" their already corrupted hybrid wolf population - the wolf bitch had mated with a dog.

You figure it, eh?


Edited by CCCC (03/17/12)
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#6302111 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: BrentD]
Maverick940 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 1973
Loc: Alaska
Brent:

Possibly in Old Mexico there might be, but in the Sitgreaves reintroduction area which encompasses the entire Arizona/New Mexico population, the population is pure and no hybridization has occurred. So, I'm not sure which agency you're citing.

Maverick

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#6302136 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Maverick940]
CCCC Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 5038
Loc: New Mexico High Country
Quote:
Maverick940: the entire Arizona/New Mexico population, the population is pure and no hybridization has occurred.
Well, this seems very interesting, and some "experts" in the area do not agree. Please provide the authoritative source for your statement. Thanks.
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#6302155 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: CCCC]
BrentD Offline
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Registered: 09/20/02
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Loc: MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA
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#6302157 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: boarguy]
FlyboyFlem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 9282
Loc: Nebraska
Bearguide you believe what you may about size but the majority of song dogs in Eastern Ne and Western Iowa are carrying domestic dog DNA and can get quite large.BTW we have some in the Western part of the state that get upwards of 75 lbs,sorry your Canadian variety are midgets grin
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#6302160 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: FlyboyFlem]
BrentD Offline
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Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 11730
Loc: MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA
The majority of Iowa coyotes are dog hybrids? Who did this work?
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#6302162 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: BrentD]
Maverick940 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 1973
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: BrentD


I was hoping you might be able to cite agency literature. As you know, lay science is highly suspect. Are there any agency accounts you can point to? That would be helpful.

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#6302170 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Maverick940]
BrentD Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 11730
Loc: MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA
no lay science. Not even sure what that is. Agency work is poorly reviewed and generally of second tier quality where NOT published in the mainstream literature like these.

More than likely, these studies were funded by agencies of several sorts. Check the acknowledgements yourself. I know a few of the authors and they are the best of the bunch.
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#6302178 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: BrentD]
FlyboyFlem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 9282
Loc: Nebraska
I hunt on both sides of the Missouri river, my pards and I have taken many over the years that aren't pure coyote..some almost charcoal in color.I killed a really big one mottled in color out of my bow stand about 5 yrs ago so they are around.
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#6302182 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: BrentD]
Maverick940 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 1973
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: BrentD
no lay science. Not even sure what that is. Agency work is poorly reviewed and generally of second tier quality where NOT published in the mainstream literature like these.

More than likely, these studies were funded by agencies of several sorts. Check the acknowledgements yourself. I know a few of the authors and they are the best of the bunch.


So you're saying that you don't trust the biologists who work for your own state's department?

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#6302398 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Maverick940]
CCCC Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/11/08
Posts: 5038
Loc: New Mexico High Country
Maverick940: Would you kindly provide the authoritatve source to support your statement, as follows:?
Quote:
Maverick940: Brent: Possibly in Old Mexico there might be, but in the Sitgreaves reintroduction area which encompasses the entire Arizona/New Mexico population, the population is pure and no hybridization has occurred. So, I'm not sure which agency you're citing. Maverick

Thanks.
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#6302438 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: CCCC]
Maverick940 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/19/12
Posts: 1973
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: CCCC
Maverick940: Would you kindly provide the authoritatve source to support your statement, as follows:?
Quote:
Maverick940: Brent: Possibly in Old Mexico there might be, but in the Sitgreaves reintroduction area which encompasses the entire Arizona/New Mexico population, the population is pure and no hybridization has occurred. So, I'm not sure which agency you're citing. Maverick

Thanks.


In relation to Mexican Grey Wolf reintroduced populations:

New Mexico Game and Fish; Arizona Game and Fish; Department of the Interior, United States Fish and Wildlife Service, National Park Service; Department of Agriculture, National Forest Service.

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#6302456 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: n007]
PaleRider Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/04/06
Posts: 1055
Coyote my A$$ crazy

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#6302487 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: FlyboyFlem]
Johnny Dollar Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Nebraska
Originally Posted By: FlyboyFlem
I hunt on both sides of the Missouri river, my pards and I have taken many over the years that aren't pure coyote..some almost charcoal in color.I killed a really big one mottled in color out of my bow stand about 5 yrs ago so they are around.


Woody,
You and I share the same basic area, except I'm about 90 miles north of you. We have taken and seen some of the dark gray 'yotes and have seen one of the mottled charcoal dudes. However, all of them had the face and tail and were the size of a coyote. I don't know if they are hybrids or if it is a color phase.

I know that none of them looked like the canine in the picture.

Years ago we had a BIG dark canine that we nicknamed "The Bass Singer" he sounded like a bass trombone when he vocalized. He always seemed to be in an area between the Elkhorn river and some feedlots in the sandhills. Saw him twice but never close enough to get a shot. Then he disappeared. A couple years later my oldest daughter and I were calling in a really brushy oxbow right on the river at night. It was during the rut and I had challenged called a few times with nothing answering. Then - I heard something breaking thru the crust on the snow. I challenge called again and got an immediate answer that rattled the filings in my teeth. Bass singer or his progeny was back! My daughter, who was in her mid-20's at the time, and an experienced caller/hunter, stood straight up and said out loud: "I'm going back to the truck!!" End of that hunt.

I would guess that there was more than a little woof blood in that critter too.

Johnny $
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#6302528 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Johnny Dollar]
FlyboyFlem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/28/10
Posts: 9282
Loc: Nebraska
Wish I could dig it out but took a pic several years ago of one really big one in a group of 4 that came by at first light as I just got in my stand.Charcoal in color and at least 1/3 larger than the rest with a not so bushy tail[no mange either].I know these aren't wolf or chupacabra crosses and too numerous to be mutations so I'm confident they have domestic canine DNA or what else could it be? eek grin
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#6302576 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: FlyboyFlem]
Johnny Dollar Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 776
Loc: Nebraska
"...chupacabra crosses..."

Well, DUH!!! (slapping forehead here)

I don't know if woofs and 'yotes crossbreed. Seems to me that their relationship would be more along the lines of a coyote/red fox relationship. Which is predator/prey from what I have seen.

On the other hand, I have seen a coyote try to breed my little Springer spaniel bitch. And the lil' tramp was interested!! BTW an open choked 20ga with 1oz of 6's will kill a 'yote - if applied with some frequency and urgency.


Johnny $
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#6302858 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Johnny Dollar]
the_shootist Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 19006
Loc: NW Ontario, Canada
Looks more like a real nice wolf that is not overly large to me, but I've only seen wolves and not coyotes. A 150 pound wolf would certainly be record book, IMHO. 80-100 more normal with a big one going maybe 120.

From what I read, coyotes usually don't hit 50, but I am no expert.
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#6303130 - 03/17/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: the_shootist]
brinky72 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 2934
That's someones sled dog, you're all wrong... or right. I have also shot some pretty hefty coyotes in my day. I never weighed them but they've been over fifty pounds I will guarantee that. Almost as big as my 70 lb German Shorthair. Those are all east of the Mississippi which I always thought eastern coyotes were bigger. All the yotes I've seen in Wyoming and Texas look pretty little and scraggily to me. If not a small, weak wolf I would guess some coyote dog (husky) hybrid.


Edited by brinky72 (03/17/12)
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#6303282 - 03/18/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Talus_in_Arizona]
1tnhunter Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/25/11
Posts: 2056
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: Talus_in_Arizona
Wouldn't wolves eat a coyote rather than breed with it?


Depends if the wolf is horny or hungry.

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#6303302 - 03/18/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: the_shootist]
Salmonella Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/17/06
Posts: 4083
Loc: Behind Enemy Lines
Originally Posted By: the_shootist
Looks more like a real nice wolf that is not overly large to me, but I've only seen wolves and not coyotes. A 150 pound wolf would certainly be record book, IMHO. 80-100 more normal with a big one going maybe 120.

From what I read, coyotes usually don't hit 50, but I am no expert.


Agree on all accounts with a rare north eastern yote occasionally pushing 60lbs.

This one was 52 lbs.







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#6303333 - 03/18/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Salmonella]
Rog Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 417
Loc: east kootenay
Pretty short tail for a wolf,but pretty big head for a coyote.Be interesting to find out the DNA results on this one
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#6303348 - 03/18/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Salmonella]
Rog Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 417
Loc: east kootenay
But that coyote you got there is no doubt a coyote and doggone he's big!!
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#6303365 - 03/18/12 Re: Big Coyote, really big. [Re: Maverick940]
BrentD Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 11730
Loc: MN, WI, IL, MI, KS, GA, AZ, IA
Originally Posted By: Maverick940
Originally Posted By: BrentD
no lay science. Not even sure what that is. Agency work is poorly reviewed and generally of second tier quality where NOT published in the mainstream literature like these.

More than likely, these studies were funded by agencies of several sorts. Check the acknowledgements yourself. I know a few of the authors and they are the best of the bunch.


So you're saying that you don't trust the biologists who work for your own state's department?


No, I'm saying they don't have the training, the experience, the equipment and technology, or the budget.

That's why most state agencies farm out this sort of work to their other state agencies - state run universities. Just the way it is.

But if you like agency work, get on the horn and call the folks at the USFWS Front Royal lab in VA for instance.
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