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"...chupacabra crosses..."

Well, DUH!!! (slapping forehead here)

I don't know if woofs and 'yotes crossbreed. Seems to me that their relationship would be more along the lines of a coyote/red fox relationship. Which is predator/prey from what I have seen.

On the other hand, I have seen a coyote try to breed my little Springer spaniel bitch. And the lil' tramp was interested!! BTW an open choked 20ga with 1oz of 6's will kill a 'yote - if applied with some frequency and urgency.


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Looks more like a real nice wolf that is not overly large to me, but I've only seen wolves and not coyotes. A 150 pound wolf would certainly be record book, IMHO. 80-100 more normal with a big one going maybe 120.

From what I read, coyotes usually don't hit 50, but I am no expert.


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That's someones sled dog, you're all wrong... or right. I have also shot some pretty hefty coyotes in my day. I never weighed them but they've been over fifty pounds I will guarantee that. Almost as big as my 70 lb German Shorthair. Those are all east of the Mississippi which I always thought eastern coyotes were bigger. All the yotes I've seen in Wyoming and Texas look pretty little and scraggily to me. If not a small, weak wolf I would guess some coyote dog (husky) hybrid.

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Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
Wouldn't wolves eat a coyote rather than breed with it?


Depends if the wolf is horny or hungry.

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Originally Posted by the_shootist
Looks more like a real nice wolf that is not overly large to me, but I've only seen wolves and not coyotes. A 150 pound wolf would certainly be record book, IMHO. 80-100 more normal with a big one going maybe 120.

From what I read, coyotes usually don't hit 50, but I am no expert.


Agree on all accounts with a rare north eastern yote occasionally pushing 60lbs.

This one was 52 lbs.

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Pretty short tail for a wolf,but pretty big head for a coyote.Be interesting to find out the DNA results on this one


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But that coyote you got there is no doubt a coyote and doggone he's big!!


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Originally Posted by Maverick940
Originally Posted by BrentD
no lay science. Not even sure what that is. Agency work is poorly reviewed and generally of second tier quality where NOT published in the mainstream literature like these.

More than likely, these studies were funded by agencies of several sorts. Check the acknowledgements yourself. I know a few of the authors and they are the best of the bunch.


So you're saying that you don't trust the biologists who work for your own state's department?


No, I'm saying they don't have the training, the experience, the equipment and technology, or the budget.

That's why most state agencies farm out this sort of work to their other state agencies - state run universities. Just the way it is.

But if you like agency work, get on the horn and call the folks at the USFWS Front Royal lab in VA for instance.



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Originally Posted by Maverick940
Originally Posted by CCCC
Maverick940: Would you kindly provide the authoritatve source to support your statement, as follows:?
Quote
Maverick940: Brent: Possibly in Old Mexico there might be, but in the Sitgreaves reintroduction area which encompasses the entire Arizona/New Mexico population, the population is pure and no hybridization has occurred. So, I'm not sure which agency you're citing. Maverick

Thanks.


In relation to Mexican Grey Wolf reintroduced populations:

New Mexico Game and Fish; Arizona Game and Fish; Department of the Interior, United States Fish and Wildlife Service, National Park Service; Department of Agriculture, National Forest Service.

Maverick940: Thanks for the general reply, but the request was for the authoritative source. Merely naming agencies involved with that program at one time or another is NOT naming an "authoritative source" regarding DNA. And, some of those agencies are not primary - at least one seems hardly involved at all by now. Which agencies have issued any scientifically authoritatve and definitive DNA documentation of the "non-hybridization" of those implanted wolves (as pure Mexican Grey Wolves), and please cite the document(s) that support your statement. As you may be imagining, this has been a serious discussion topic and some say that the documention shows other than what you state. I would like to experience your hard facts. Thanks


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Red wolves have been hypothesized to be a "hybrid swarm" consisting of genetics from coyotes, gray wolves and domestic dogs. Biometric analyses seem to bear this out, but I have not run across any DNA results. Surely, there must be some at this point in time.

The original isolating mechanism that kept wolves and coyotes from interbreeding frequently was the fact that female coyotes and female wolves came into heat at different times, and the dynamics of pack affiliation and interspecific territoriality limited opportunities for cross-breeding.

Introduce the domestic dog into the equation (females may be receptive at any time during the year), and you get hybrids with both coyotes and gray wolves. The original range of the red wolf was habitat that was marginal for gray wolves, although the bison herds on the coastal prairies of Texas did provide a prey source that permitted a population to live there.

Native Americans had domestic dogs that were undoubtedly descended from wolves in Asia, but they were almost totally dependent on humans for their sustenance. The ones that went feral probably didn't last long, and if they did and bred with wolves or coyotes, it seems unlikely that the young would have survived. Without the help of the pack, it's almost impossible for the alpha female in a pack of coyotes or wolves to provide for a litter of pups.

These days, we are back in a situation where all three species are thrown together in a situation in which the ability to hunt and kill wild prey is not that important to survival. With the reintroduction of gray wolves back into the U.S., I am sure that there are a lot of hybrid swarms developing throughout North America.

One final note: throughout the 18th and 19th century, a variety of ecotypes (populations of a species that were adapted to a particular habitat type) were described as subspecies (and sometimes even as separate species). These descriptions were based on variations in physical characteristics that probably were simply points in a continuum of varying physical characteristics across the entire range of a "species". DNA analyses are beginning to sort some of this out, but there is a lot yet to be discovered.



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This is information from the Ontario MNR.
The coyote in Ontario is a cross of Western Coyote and the Eastern Wolf.
Because of the mixed ancestry appearance varies greatly.Animals that look like dogs have no dog DNA when tested.
Known coyote/dog crosses are highly infertile,the males don't help raise the pups unlike the wolf/coyote crosses and female coydogs drop pups in the dead of winter.Two months ahead of the wolf or coyote.That is if they can even breed.

The trappers I deal with here in Southern Ontario were submitting DNA from all their kills to the University of Guelph and never had one with dog in them.

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Hey, mudhen - very good info. I sure learned some things. Thanks.


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Originally Posted by CCCC
Originally Posted by Maverick940
Originally Posted by CCCC
Maverick940: Would you kindly provide the authoritatve source to support your statement, as follows:?
Quote
Maverick940: Brent: Possibly in Old Mexico there might be, but in the Sitgreaves reintroduction area which encompasses the entire Arizona/New Mexico population, the population is pure and no hybridization has occurred. So, I'm not sure which agency you're citing. Maverick

Thanks.


In relation to Mexican Grey Wolf reintroduced populations:

New Mexico Game and Fish; Arizona Game and Fish; Department of the Interior, United States Fish and Wildlife Service, National Park Service; Department of Agriculture, National Forest Service.

Maverick940: Thanks for the general reply, but the request was for the authoritative source. Merely naming agencies involved with that program at one time or another is NOT naming an "authoritative source" regarding DNA. And, some of those agencies are not primary - at least one seems hardly involved at all by now. Which agencies have issued any scientifically authoritatve and definitive DNA documentation of the "non-hybridization" of those implanted wolves (as pure Mexican Grey Wolves), and please cite the document(s) that support your statement. As you may be imagining, this has been a serious discussion topic and some say that the documention shows other than what you state. I would like to experience your hard facts. Thanks


All the agencies mentioned have reams of data on geneticism and the purity of the genetic trait per the experimental Mexican grey wolf reintroduction program. If you have the interest in reading about the program and learning about it and the public process which is also involved, you should contact those agencies via telephone or by way of their independent websites.

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Maverick940, have you, yourself, read such published info? It would appear that you have not done so. Having read everything one can find on the genetic makeup of those implanted wolves - as put out by SOME of the parties you noted - the purity you claim is not verified and is subject to serious doubt. The common understanding among many involved is that the implanted wolves are hybrids.

Your bold and blanket statement in the beginning has not been supported by your producing even one credible data cite, as requested. Is one left to assume that you did not know whereof you spoke and that there is nothing additional to be learned about that statement?


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Originally Posted by CCCC
Maverick940, have you, yourself, read such published info? It would appear that you have not done so. Having read everything one can find on the genetic makeup of those implanted wolves - as put out by SOME of the parties you noted - the purity you claim is not verified and is subject to serious doubt. The common understanding among many involved is that the implanted wolves are hybrids.

Your bold and blanket statement in the beginning has not been supported by your producing even one credible data cite, as requested. Is one left to assume that you did not know whereof you spoke and that there is nothing additional to be learned about that statement?


Of course. Why not? I mean, I love reading data. In fact, my rather large library predominately consists of text book materials and published state/federal/international agency data.

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Who cares? It's dead and all the cervids are rejoicing.


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The eastern coyote that has colonized the Island of Newfoundland is a coyote/red wolf hybrid. The Newfoundland Wolf was killed off by the 1930s.

No timber/gray wolves were ever transplanted and to my knowledge no wolves have been legally kept as pets. Domestic coydog hybrids are also virtually unknown on the island.

The closest wild wolf population would be southern Labrador. It is over 600km. Doable, except for all that salt water in between, and crossing that distance on pack ice is highly unlikely. It is possible a wolf may have crossed over the Strait of Belle Isle at the tip of the Northern Peninsula, however, the distance this "wolf" would've had to travel to reach the area where it was shot more than doubles. Unlikely, but not impossible.

That said, the animal pictured definitely displays more wolf than coyote characteristics. I'm guessing that the DNA testing will show it to be a wolf/coyote hybrid, with the recessive red wolf genes having become dominate in this animal. Of course, it's just one more WAY...wild associated guess. smile

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Originally Posted by Maverick940
Originally Posted by Talus_in_Arizona
Wouldn't wolves eat a coyote rather than breed with it? And yeah, this could be an escapee.


Yes. Wolves don't tolerate coyotes, just as coyotes won't tolerate foxes. The only way that I could foresee an inbreeding situation, was if it was under a controlled (domesticated) intro-fertilization situation. In the wild, wolves try to consume whatever coyotes they come across.



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i do'nt know if wolves ever cross with yotes but tex. biologists trapped one in austin that weighed 83 lgs.--cranky72

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