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I don't believe that one needs to be an absolute gun nut to use turrets. We teach people trajectory, animal anatomy, basic terminal ballistics, how to zero a scope, set up a drop chart, positional shooting (including alternate positions), reading wind, and how to use their BDC reticle or turrets out to 600 yards in a 2 day class.

I went on a Whitetail/Mule deer hunt with my buddy and his wife last year. She had never hunted or shot that much before. We spent one afternoon with a .22 learning the basics of shooting, and the about three hours practicing with the 243win she was going to use on the hunt. It honestly took her all of five minutes to "get" that all she had to do was know the range, look it up on the card taped to the stock, and spin the turret to that number. Another five minutes were spent with her learning about wind holds, and then she proceeded to crush the targets out to 400 yards in a 5-10mph switching wind all from field shooting positions with nothing more then being told the range and her doing the rest.

We went on the hunt and she smoked her first deer from what was probably the most contorted position I've ever seen someone have to take a shot. I told her the range and she dialed it and did the rest....

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by deflave
Originally Posted by FredWillis
First off, there needs to be a distinction between big game and and varmint hunting. In addition,setting the drop at given ranges requires considerable time and energy checking the drop tables for accuracy.As a varmint hunter, primarly Rockchucks, there are times when we only see a head. Without a RF and turrets, one has a better than 50% chance of missing.

I have been using a Burris 6-18 with turrets for 17 years.When trying to explain how it works, you can see the eyes roll back in head of those wanting to learn. It just takes time to wrap ones head around the process.

I had one trip where the only thing I saw on chucks, was the head. Without turrets and RF,I would have had minimal success. AS it was, I killed 12 with head shots, and that was all I saw.

I think to successfully use turrets, one has to almost be an absolute gun nut and does not like failing.


I agree. I find the turrets better suited for shooting like you describe.

I do not agree turrets are tough to learn with. Once you have your dope, it's pretty easy to explain it to a new shooter.


Travis


For hunters and dummies, just go with the yardage turrets.

DF


I don't think that's necessary. You're gonna tape a drop chart with the MOA lined out anyway.

Even a Polish monkey can read "300 yds -2.9 MOA" and turn the knob accordingly. Might take two range sessions. Might...


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If you can't round numbers up/down and can't think in 1/4s...well then I don't know.

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Is there anything dumber than a "Polish Monkey"? laugh

You may need a category of turrets for whatever/whomever fits that category... smile

DF


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How about these turrets?

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Originally Posted by Tanner
If you can't round numbers up/down and can't think in 1/4s...well then I don't know.


Yes. That is when you ask them to please put down the "boom stick" and wait in the car until I'm done. Thanks.


Travis


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Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual.
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Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit.
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My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Or put down the "sniper rifle", put their helmet on, and go finish their pudding cup.

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Not all BDC reticles are created equal.

The Burris ballistic plex an Nikon BDC suck IMO.

The Pride Fowler (zeiss z600,800) reticles are more than precice enough for big game hunting in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
How about these turrets?

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Looks too complicated to me... shocked

Are those in MOA or yardage...?

DF

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
One of the big problems with this discussion is many have no frame of reference to base a theory on. Most hunters barely know how to sight a rifle in, let alone know how to actually use one to it's full capability. Granted most on here are not in that category, however distance shooting is still a relatively new thing for the mass majority of hunters. I think for this topic it will greatly help to get a frame of reference for the experience level of the posters.

Most of my observations are from 8 years as a US military duty slotted sniper, owner and chief instructor of a firearms training company, 3-Gun and precision rifle tactical competitor, and a fanatical hunter.

I shot LR a bit when I first started shooting, but wasn't all that good at it. I simply didn't have the knowledge, coaching or equipment to be very consistent. I made a couple of longish shots on deer in the 4- 500 yard range, but I wasn't really setup to do it. When I finally bought a Leupold with target turrets and actually learned how to use them hits went WAY up. Then I bought a Burris with Ballistic plex reticle and thought I had found the holy grail. What could be easier then having specific aiming points for 200, 300, 400, 500, and 600 yards? Shooting on the range seemed to prove that the reticle was fast and accurate. The first couple of deer were in the 2-350 yard range and I smoked them rather easily. The first time I noticed a problem was on a deer that was moving through the brush on a hillside over 400 yards away. The rut was in full swing, and I could see the deer moving back and forth in the scrub brush but it was to thick for a shot. Finally he stopped in a small opening. I had a clear path to the vitals, but most of his head and stomach were partially obscured by the brush. I was shooting across the side of the steep hill I was on over to the hill he was on. The position I was shooting from and the fact that I had to "guess" where to hold the reticle because the range was between the nice laid out yardage markers and the gap was quite a bit bigger then the vitals, made me take way to much time trying to get everything lined up correctly. I killed that deer but it wasn't pretty, and several other instances with friends and excited situations on deer started making me rethink how great the BDC reticle was.

Soon after I had a custom rifle made up for extreme distance shooting that launched 30cal 220gr SMK's at over 3,300 fps. Combined with a scope that tracked consistently, hits out to almost 800 yards became routine. The 400 to 600 yard range just wasn't even a challenge anymore. I pretty much abandoned using BDC reticles, because hits were much better dialing. At this point I believed that one needed a 1,000 yard bench gun that weighed 25lbs and was chambered for cartridges that consumed 100gr of powder to reliably kill deer past 4 or 500 yards.

When I attended Sniper school I learned that rifles didn't have to weigh over 20 pounds with 34in long barrels to get good hits out to 700 yards or so. The instructors pushed using the reticle for your holds, stating that it was faster and "easier". And while I shot quite a bit using the reticle it was plain to see that dialing was significantly more accurate and consistent, especially in the wind. My spotter struggled on shooting tests until he finally relented and started dialing at which point he went from barely passing to smoking the courses. As far as speed went I was by far the fastest shooter to HIT targets in the class. When I finished the school I had shot over 3,000 rounds of 308win, 300WM, and 50BMG out to 1,900 yards. I could take my 12lb M24 in 7.62 and and make on demand head shots on E-types at 600m in calm conditions. It was by far the most consistent gun system I had ever used.

When I graduated it kicked my experimenting into overdrive. Over the next few years I learned that consistency day in and day out was the most important criteria in a rifle, no matter the range. Gradually I moved away from the big bench gun and back to 308's, 243's and 300WM's that were "normal" hunting rifles that could be carried and used from point blank out to 700 or so yards. Every once and a while I would shoot with or hunt with someone who was enamored with reticles, yet every time they shot better with my rifles and dialing.

Fast forward to the present and I have been teaching LR shooting classes for the last three years seeing dozens of hunters and shooters, both military and civilian, come through and shoot just about every gun and scope combination made. Last summer I shot or witnessed over 50,000 rounds go downrange, a good portion of it from hunting rifles. Having seen so many examples of the same shooter in the same conditions on the same day shoot much better dialing rather then holding, there is zero doubt in my mind that, excepting military applications, dialing is the way to go.




Nice post. I can appreciate that insight and experience. I too like spinning turrets on targets past 600 yards. Anything less and the reticle works just fine....


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by BillyGoatGruff

......

...I don't honestly see myself switching over to the turrets, but heck who knows, the more I use them the more I may like them.


The more I spin them the more I like them. I still like and use the LRD (especially in a fixed scope), but the last couple of scopes I've gone with turrets and mildot....nice to dial elevation and have a set point to hold off for wind.

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deflave

I have not tried to teach the use to younger guys or gals. But the ones I am teaching tend to be mid to late 60's and they just have trouble getting their heads around the concept.


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Originally Posted by Timberbuck
Not all BDC reticles are created equal.

The Burris ballistic plex an Nikon BDC suck IMO.

The Pride Fowler (zeiss z600,800) reticles are more than precice enough for big game hunting in my experience.


I'll concur that the Nikon BDC sucks, but the Burris BP has been great, for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
How about these turrets?

[Linked Image]


Looks too complicated to me... shocked

Are those in MOA or yardage...?

DF


Heck if I know!!! I can't even understand the markings that looks like this: 1-2-3-4-5...

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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Timberbuck
Not all BDC reticles are created equal.

The Burris ballistic plex an Nikon BDC suck IMO.

The Pride Fowler (zeiss z600,800) reticles are more than precice enough for big game hunting in my experience.


I'll concur that the Nikon BDC sucks, but the Burris BP has been great, for what it is.


+1


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole.

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Originally Posted by FredWillis
deflave

I have not tried to teach the use to younger guys or gals. But the ones I am teaching tend to be mid to late 60's and they just have trouble getting their heads around the concept.


Do you know what I find really helps? Only speak in terms of MOA. Don't explain all the converting inches to MOA at the varying distances. If they stick with it, they'll want to learn that on their own anyway.

But when it comes to just shooting, I break that schit down shotgun style. Here is your MOA for 300 yds. Move the turret to that number. Shoot. Ok now to the four...ect...ect...

It's no different than an A2 rear sight. You're just removing the yardage markings on the knobs. Works for me anyway.

If all of the above fails, try excessive profanity. If that doesn't work, switch to the "swift and blinding violence" methodology.


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Originally Posted by FredWillis
deflave

I have not tried to teach the use to younger guys or gals. But the ones I am teaching tend to be mid to late 60's and they just have trouble getting their heads around the concept.



Sometimes it a lot easier for someone to learn if they try the basic mechanics before they get thrown into the deep end on the theory. I strongly suspect that if someone had the time to work with your friends on setting up their systems, they wouldn't have any trouble doing it, and eventually after working with the mechanics and basic concepts they would have a better understanding of the overall concept. If they got to shoot with your gun and your drop charts a few rounds before you or someone else helped them set up their system, they would see how simple turrets are to use once the system is set up.

For instance:
1. I'm sure they all understand (or could be quickly taught) how to zero at 100 yards.
2. If they can zero at 100 yards, they can shoot at a bullsye at other distances (e.g., 200, 300, 400 yards).
3. They can measure the vertical distance between the center of the bullseye and the center of the impact holes.
4. Someone can help them figure out how many clicks are needed for each distance they shot at: for 100 yard zero multiply vertical distance by ratio of 100 over the range at which the target was placed and then multiply by the number of clicks per inch at 100 yards (or using mils if their scope has mil-based adjustments). They can do the math as long as you stick with a 100 yard zero. If they want to change their zero distance as they learn more, they can, but keeping it simple at first allows them to get into the game.
5. Someone can help them use a ballistic software package to set up their drop chart for intermediate ranges (WITH CLICKS and/or MOA or mils, depending on their scope, listed for simplicity) for the elevation they will be shooting.
6. They won't have much, if any, trouble figuring out how to spin a turret and return it to zero (they just have to pay a little attention to what they are doing), and they would have already done it a few times using your setup so they can see how easy it is.
7. Once they have 1-6 knocked out, all they have to do is practice. They can learn windage holds, using their reticle, as they are practicing.

If they are having trouble anywhere along the way, just keep it as simple as possible like keeping 100 yards as their zero distance rather than using a more "optimal" distance zero (e.g., for MPBR for their load).

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Originally Posted by FredWillis
deflave

I have not tried to teach the use to younger guys or gals. But the ones I am teaching tend to be mid to late 60's and they just have trouble getting their heads around the concept.




We find that it's easier to teach the "what" to do, i.e.. find the range on the card and spin the turret to the number it tells you to, and then slowly introduce the "why" and "how".... For older people sometimes dialing is like MAJIC...






An example of the difference we've seen with hunters between dialing elevation and holding.

I taught several classes to a man last year who goes on 6-8 BIG guided hunts a year. The gun he mainly uses is a Kenny Jarrett built rifle chambered in 300 Jarrett. The scope was a Zeiss Diavari FL 6-24x72 with the Rapid Z-800 reticle and locking turrets. No I didn't pick the scope out....

His load was 180gr Accubonds at 3,250fps. The rifle averaged around .75 MOA. (As an aside, I have yet to see a single hunting rifle come through that averaged .5MOA or less. Despite a whole lot of custom rifles.....)
Anyways, when I met him he was dead set on the reticle thing as he was able to, on several occasions, hit 20oz water bottles at 500 yards using it. He had been on a bunch of hunting trips all over the world taking numerous record book and B&C animals, yet like almost all hunters he really didn't know how to shoot. He certainly thought he did, and he could zero a rifle, and hit animals, but he was slow, with bad technique and habits. He was uncomfortable in awkward positions, and really didn't know anything other then standing or prone.
From the bench he could slam the 8-12in steel gongs all the way out to 650 yards using the reticle. I also had him build a drop card using the turrets. When we got to prone off of a pack he was still getting decent hits, but when it came to anything other then prone rested, it got bad. Like a 25% hit rate. He was getting discouraged so I had him dial. He went 7 or 8 straight. I explained to him that there is something mentally comforting about seeing the crosshairs IN your target rather then above, below, or around it that makes it SO much easier to hit when you excited, tired, or in an uncomfortable position. I did quite a few more classes with him and he got better and better to where he could use the reticle and the turrets very effectively.
One of the last times we shot together was in a valley with some really crazy switching winds. Sustained 10+mph with gusts up to 25. We started just warming up prone off a pack dialing elevation and holding wind with me on the spotting scope giving the wind calls. He went just about 1 for 1 getting a second round hit on the 550 yard IIRC. So I told him to try it using the reticle. Everything went fine up until the 450 yard plate. That took him two shots to hit. A couple of shots for the 500 and 525 yard plate too. Once he got to the 550 it fell apart. He missed 8 or 9 in a row. Every shot was just off the edges of the plate. He commented that while he knew where to hold in between the hashes, with the wind and having to hold off left and right he just couldn't get it to "look" right. (hmmm.... that sounds familiar.)

So I said- ok dial it.

Hit.

"again"

Hit.

He ran through the plates at 360, 400, 425, 450, 500, 525, 550, 600, and 650 yards two or three times only dropping one or two shots. He's a dialer.....



This has has been a very common experience for us. YMMV....

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My two cents are that this applies in taking long shots which aren't the norm for shots at big game. Or at least it hasn't been for me.
There are those who argue that there are no compromises in using dedicated long range rifles and scopes for all oportunities in the field. I disagree. Scopes like your favorite Nightforce, often come with short eye relief, small eye boxes and fine reticles. All of which hinder making shots under other unfavorable conditions. Running shots at bad angles and low light shots come to mind here.
You give an example of using a binocular to range a deer at 477 yds. With a proper reticle, I can often range and shoot w/o bothering to use a range finder or dialing. No, not at 477 yds. as a rule. But if he's 300-400 yds. I can and have.
Accurate ranging and dialing is nice. If you have the additional time and if ther animal is cooperating.
Let's say your deer is moving as it feeds. Going to try ranging and dialing ? Want to know how many guys I've seen loose a shot because they were fiddling with the scope ?
They both have their uses and there places. It's not an either or situation. I do agree that one can use a reticle often times more effectively to hold into the wind than using a reticle to holdover. And it certainly works better to dial than to try and do both holdover and hold into the wind using a reticle alone.
As to reliable scopes, that's another area of disagreement. Basically, no scope can be dialed forever w/o breaking down. Ask the benchrest guys about that. Reliability also depends on the scope's ability to stay zeroed when impacted or when shot alot. Again, all of them fail if pushed enough. Some are just better than others. E

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Originally Posted by FredWillis
deflave

I have not tried to teach the use to younger guys or gals. But the ones I am teaching tend to be mid to late 60's and they just have trouble getting their heads around the concept.



Fred,

You may have better luck with the younger crowd. Something about new tricks and old dogs... laugh

DF

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