Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >
Topic Options
#6440386 - 04/24/12 07:37 PM Nightforce Vs Leupold
Fotis Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 7690
Loc: Cheyenne, Wy
I want to get into LR shooting nothing formal.

I am looking at the NF 5.5x22x50 NXS and the
Leupold Mark 4 Tactical 8.5-25X50LR I can get the leo for 1300 and the NF for 1700.

What are the differences in tracking, clarity, reliability etc.

Any input would be great.
_________________________


"Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Top
#6440420 - 04/24/12 07:46 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
HiredGun Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 601
Loc: North Bend OR
To me the biggest differences are weight (NF wieghs a lot more), choice of useful reticals (NF has them), cost (NF costs more.) The differences you question are very comparable to me. The NF has a reputation for reliable tracking better than Leupold. My scopes are Leupold and they track fine. I have no use for the Mark 4 line. VX3 works for most of my needs. I do like the M-1 dials though.


Edited by HiredGun (04/24/12 07:48 PM)
_________________________
Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6440538 - 04/24/12 08:16 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Originally Posted By: Fotis
I want to get into LR shooting nothing formal.

I am looking at the NF 5.5x22x50 NXS and the
Leupold Mark 4 Tactical 8.5-25X50LR I can get the leo for 1300 and the NF for 1700.

What are the differences in tracking, clarity, reliability etc.

Any input would be great.



Absolute perfect tracking, reliability, consistency, and durability with the Nightforce. This is not theoretical statements or fanboy'ism. We see upwards of 100,000 rounds a year shot. I have never seen a NF have issues.


The Leupold is a decent scope however spin those turrets enough and it will develop problems. Again, I'm not guessing.


You can pick up used Nightforce's for around $1,000-$1,200. That's what I would do. There are no worries with buying a used NF. It will work perfectly.

Top
#6440811 - 04/24/12 10:10 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
You have two very different scopes. The NF is truly a hard-use, tactical scope...literally bullet-proof. It will maintain its reliability unless you take a 5 lb sledge hammer to it and pound it flat against your barrel. The Leupold, while a decent scope, is in no way the equal of the NF for tactical rifle use.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6440838 - 04/24/12 10:34 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Pop,

Nightforce - professional use,serious competition,high round count.

Leupold - casual use,serious competition with frozen or modified erector,low round count.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6440860 - 04/24/12 11:10 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dave7mm]
IslandFirearmCoatings Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 357
Loc: Kodiak
Originally Posted By: dave7mm
Pop,

Nightforce - professional use,serious competition,high round count.

Leupold - casual use,serious competition with frozen or modified erector,low round count.


dave

Dave about covered it perfectly. The only way these two are close in my opinion is the glass and that is debateable. If you want tops in glass you have to go with one of the european manufacturers.

Top
#6441064 - 04/25/12 04:57 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: IslandFirearmCoatings]
Fotis Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 7690
Loc: Cheyenne, Wy
Thank you guys.
_________________________


"Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Top
#6441097 - 04/25/12 05:13 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
rem06 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/04/11
Posts: 457
Loc: Pa
NXS hand down!

you can save $300 by installing your own "zero stop" in the NXS

drill and tap the scope cap and put in a threaded allen head screw just like the "zero adjust". works perfect smile
_________________________
is that extra 25fps worth detonation?
NRA life member

Top
#6441715 - 04/25/12 08:56 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: rem06]
JGRaider Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 13226
Loc: W. Texas
Is there any way to get a duplex style reticle in a NF scope?
_________________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.

Top
#6441839 - 04/25/12 09:36 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: JGRaider]
HiredGun Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 601
Loc: North Bend OR
Yes, the NP-1
_________________________
Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6441869 - 04/25/12 09:44 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: HiredGun]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Originally Posted By: HiredGun
Yes, the NP-1

Only accurate rifles are interesting.


Dude, nice sig.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6442105 - 04/25/12 10:53 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dave7mm]
Fotis Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 7690
Loc: Cheyenne, Wy
nice
_________________________


"Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Top
#6442144 - 04/25/12 11:01 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4310
Loc: WY & FL
What do military snipers use ?

Schmidt and Bender

Nightforce

?s

Top
#6442236 - 04/25/12 11:21 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: ]
eh76 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 47480
Loc: North of Liberalism in Wyoming
Originally Posted By: whiteeyes
What do military snipers use ?

Schmidt and Bender

Nightforce

?s


Hey Larry how come you changed your avatar on your interthem username?

Top
#6442262 - 04/25/12 11:27 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: ]
FOsteology Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 7384
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: whiteeyes
What do military snipers use ?

Schmidt and Bender

Nightforce

?s


Whiteeyes / Larry Root!

While we have your attention, please start a new thread and regal us with you heroic exploits during your 3 tours in 'Nam as a THUD / F-105 "Fighter Pilot"... Remember, loosing your friends over Red River....bunking with "Marine Snipers"... expert Marksman Badges with four different weapons... 600 and 1000 yard matches that you won while in the Air Force... your much claimed and touted combat service...

Absolutely riveting and fascinating tales! wink

Top
#6442272 - 04/25/12 11:29 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: FOsteology]
RDFinn Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 16541
Loc: Bernardsville, NJ
He (yellow eyes) did three tours in California.

Top
#6442287 - 04/25/12 11:32 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: ]
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
Excuse me ? Nightforce gets a military contract every year for about 50 scopes from what I've seen. The US Army has long used Leupolds in several forms on their sniper and other tactical rifles.
The USMC does use S&B's. That's because they wrote specs that fit the S&B scope they adopted back when Leupold didn't make anything that close the specs the USMC insisted on.
I'd also point out that it's hardly fair comparing NF scopes to Leupolds in general. Afterall, Leupold makes everything from cheap $200 scopes all the way the the $4000 Mk.8's.
Speaking of the Mk.8, the military asked the major scope companies to develop a scope with those specs. Apparently only Leupold could make one that actually worked.
As to reliability, how come NF has such a huge backlog on repairs for their scopes ? Last I heard, it was over six months. Owners with "minor" problems were encouraged not to send their scopes in at all. In contrast, when I last talked to Leupold, which was last week, their response was " I'm not sure, send it in and we'll look at it." E

Top
#6442467 - 04/25/12 12:22 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
E, stop. Please. You know nothing of military sniping or sniper equipment.



These are the Leupolds issued in the military.

Ultra M3A (or MK4) 10x40
MK4 LR M3 3.5-10x40
MK4 4.5-14x50 M1
TS-30 A2 3𥛻6
MK8 1.1-8x24 CQBSS
MK4 34mm 6.5-20x50

There are/were a few others in limited numbers.


The only ones that don't have consistent problems are the fixed 10x, the MK8 CQBSS, and the new 34mm 6.5-20x50.


The rest fail at an unacceptable rate for military sniper use.






Your statement about Nightforce's military contracts and repair backlog is false. They have, and have had, several contracts within USSOCOM, NAVSPECWAR, and USASOC. They currently have one worth 25.8 million dollars.

They do have a huge backlog across the board with their optics because they are selling every single scope they can make. It has nothing to do with repairs.





I have spent 7 years as a military duty slotted sniper. I have been issued, used, and shot every scope mentioned in this thread. I have seen the variable Leupolds fail at around 25-30% rate. That is- it is not uncommon to have 2 or 3 variable power Leupolds out of 10 develop issues when used hard. I have seen both S&B and Premier scopes have issues (granted there have been very few). I have never seen a NF fail (including the one with the bullet through it). I'm sure they break like all things made, but I would bet they have the lowest failure rate of any US issued sniper scope.

Top
#6442923 - 04/25/12 02:33 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
cfran Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1704
Loc: Minnesota
Refreshing to hear comments from those that don't need to guess or fabricate bad information. I've given up hope long ago on E.

Top
#6442964 - 04/25/12 02:42 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: cfran]
WildWest Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 1956
Thanks for the great inside info, Formidilosus

Top
#6442998 - 04/25/12 02:50 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5180
Loc: Montana
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
I have never seen a NF fail (including the one with the bullet through it). I'm sure they break like all things made, but I would bet they have the lowest failure rate of any US issued sniper scope.




the NF that took an AK47 bullet sold me my first NF. the story went that the guy using that scope just taped up the holes up and continued using the scope until a replacement could be sourced.

_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

Top
#6443026 - 04/25/12 02:56 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: toad]
Tulie Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/13/10
Posts: 288
Loc: New Mexico
I sure hate to be the negative one here but a buddy of mine shoots at the Nationals each year along with his son. The son owns several junior records and is an optics nut. He has rotated through more scopes than I can count but he went from a Mark IV to a NF and liked it to start with but in the past year and a half it's been back to NF for 3 different repairs. He has told me he sure wishes for his Mark IV back. I looked through his NF and was not impressed by the optic clarity and contrast but maybe that was just me. I know others have different experiences and for the most part it does seem the NF's are pretty bomb proof but that's what I know.
_________________________
"Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
-Thomas Jefferson

Top
#6443040 - 04/25/12 03:01 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
ryanjay11 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 592
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: Eremicus
Excuse me ? Nightforce gets a military contract every year for about 50 scopes from what I've seen. The US Army has long used Leupolds in several forms on their sniper and other tactical rifles.
The USMC does use S&B's. That's because they wrote specs that fit the S&B scope they adopted back when Leupold didn't make anything that close the specs the USMC insisted on.
I'd also point out that it's hardly fair comparing NF scopes to Leupolds in general. Afterall, Leupold makes everything from cheap $200 scopes all the way the the $4000 Mk.8's.
Speaking of the Mk.8, the military asked the major scope companies to develop a scope with those specs. Apparently only Leupold could make one that actually worked.
As to reliability, how come NF has such a huge backlog on repairs for their scopes ? Last I heard, it was over six months. Owners with "minor" problems were encouraged not to send their scopes in at all. In contrast, when I last talked to Leupold, which was last week, their response was " I'm not sure, send it in and we'll look at it." E


This post is about 90% lies and the other 10% is speculation. Its great that you are happy with your Leupold customer service. I bet you are pleased that they repair your scope every time you have to send the piece of junk in.

Top
#6443054 - 04/25/12 03:04 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: ryanjay11]
RDFinn Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 16541
Loc: Bernardsville, NJ
Customer Service is "code" for "my broken scope".

Top
#6443537 - 04/25/12 05:18 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Tulie]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Tulie
I sure hate to be the negative one here but a buddy of mine shoots at the Nationals each year along with his son. The son owns several junior records and is an optics nut. He has rotated through more scopes than I can count but he went from a Mark IV to a NF and liked it to start with but in the past year and a half it's been back to NF for 3 different repairs. He has told me he sure wishes for his Mark IV back. I looked through his NF and was not impressed by the optic clarity and contrast but maybe that was just me. I know others have different experiences and for the most part it does seem the NF's are pretty bomb proof but that's what I know.

That never has been NF's claim to fame. It's their utmost repeatability and bulletproof construction. I don't find their optics up to par with the scope price, but I have the luxury of not having people shooting back at me.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6443546 - 04/25/12 05:21 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: toad]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: toad
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
I have never seen a NF fail (including the one with the bullet through it). I'm sure they break like all things made, but I would bet they have the lowest failure rate of any US issued sniper scope.




the NF that took an AK47 bullet sold me my first NF. the story went that the guy using that scope just taped up the holes up and continued using the scope until a replacement could be sourced.



When that first occurred they had the troop who was issued the scope displaying it on his rifle. Absolutely amazing.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6443552 - 04/25/12 05:23 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Formidilosus,

Thank you for your service sir!
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6443614 - 04/25/12 05:38 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Magnumdood]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4310
Loc: WY & FL
Ya gotta love the way the troll make stuff up when they have nothing to contribute to a thread !

As I said:

Nightforce & Schmidt and Bender.

I'd rather have the old Unertl and Swaro fixed 10Xs than any Leupold. Never seen a Leupy on a Barrett semi have you ?

Top
#6443690 - 04/25/12 05:57 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: ]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5180
Loc: Montana
Originally Posted By: whiteeyes
I'd rather have the old Unertl and Swaro fixed 10Xs than any Leupold. Never seen a Leupy on a Barrett semi have you ?


sure.

go to Barrett watch the slide show. you'll see a few. no Unertl or Swaro though. wonder why...

look familiar?

_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

Top
#6443692 - 04/25/12 05:58 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
JD338 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 1149
Loc: Western, MI
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
E, stop. Please. You know nothing of military sniping or sniper equipment.



These are the Leupolds issued in the military.

Ultra M3A (or MK4) 10x40
MK4 LR M3 3.5-10x40
MK4 4.5-14x50 M1
TS-30 A2 3𥛻6
MK8 1.1-8x24 CQBSS
MK4 34mm 6.5-20x50

There are/were a few others in limited numbers.


The only ones that don't have consistent problems are the fixed 10x, the MK8 CQBSS, and the new 34mm 6.5-20x50.


The rest fail at an unacceptable rate for military sniper use.






Your statement about Nightforce's military contracts and repair backlog is false. They have, and have had, several contracts within USSOCOM, NAVSPECWAR, and USASOC. They currently have one worth 25.8 million dollars.

They do have a huge backlog across the board with their optics because they are selling every single scope they can make. It has nothing to do with repairs.





I have spent 7 years as a military duty slotted sniper. I have been issued, used, and shot every scope mentioned in this thread. I have seen the variable Leupolds fail at around 25-30% rate. That is- it is not uncommon to have 2 or 3 variable power Leupolds out of 10 develop issues when used hard. I have seen both S&B and Premier scopes have issues (granted there have been very few). I have never seen a NF fail (including the one with the bullet through it). I'm sure they break like all things made, but I would bet they have the lowest failure rate of any US issued sniper scope.




Formidilosus,

Thank you for your service.

If I may ask, exactly what kind of failures did you see with the Leupolds?

JD338

Top
#6443845 - 04/25/12 06:35 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Magnumdood]
JGRaider Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 13226
Loc: W. Texas
Originally Posted By: Magnumdood
Formidilosus,

Thank you for your service sir!


+1. I'd like to offer my appreciation also.
_________________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.

Top
#6443861 - 04/25/12 06:40 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Magnumdood]
Tulie Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/13/10
Posts: 288
Loc: New Mexico
Originally Posted By: Magnumdood
Originally Posted By: Tulie
I sure hate to be the negative one here but a buddy of mine shoots at the Nationals each year along with his son. The son owns several junior records and is an optics nut. He has rotated through more scopes than I can count but he went from a Mark IV to a NF and liked it to start with but in the past year and a half it's been back to NF for 3 different repairs. He has told me he sure wishes for his Mark IV back. I looked through his NF and was not impressed by the optic clarity and contrast but maybe that was just me. I know others have different experiences and for the most part it does seem the NF's are pretty bomb proof but that's what I know.

That never has been NF's claim to fame. It's their utmost repeatability and bulletproof construction. I don't find their optics up to par with the scope price, but I have the luxury of not having people shooting back at me.


that is true and the reason that the F class guys like them so much. absolute repeatability. I was just stating my very limited experience and what I do know from my buddy. His has not held up as well as his previous Mark IV. Might just be the one that is that way but he's not very pleased at this moment.
_________________________
"Suppose you were an idiot And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
-Thomas Jefferson

Top
#6443864 - 04/25/12 06:41 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: JGRaider]
Jeff_O Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 26248
Loc: Wetter'n Oregon
+2

Hate war, but soldiers are top of the heap in my book.
_________________________
Aim small, miss small
Think small, miss big

Top
#6443944 - 04/25/12 07:00 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
thank you for your service.

dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6443973 - 04/25/12 07:09 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa




dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6444310 - 04/25/12 08:45 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: JD338]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Guys I appreciate the thanks but there is no reason for it. There are a lot of people that have paid a heavy price in the last decade and I'm not one of them. I've lived my childhood dream for the last 7+ years.









Originally Posted By: whiteeyes
Ya gotta love the way the troll make stuff up when they have nothing to contribute to a thread !

As I said:

Nightforce & Schmidt and Bender.

I'd rather have the old Unertl and Swaro fixed 10Xs than any Leupold. Never seen a Leupy on a Barrett semi have you ?




Actually yes.



The Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50 M1 is the US Army standard issue scope for the M107 Barrett.








Originally Posted By: JD338


Formidilosus,

Thank you for your service.

If I may ask, exactly what kind of failures did you see with the Leupolds?

JD338



It's almost always with tracking. Either inconsistent tracking, getting sporadic "jumps" or fliers when making an adjustment, or sometimes total failure of the erector system. This only really manifests itself when constantly dialing. Once zeroed and left they tend to hold zero very reliably. My experience with training hunters over the last few years, and my own hunting/shooting confirms this across the board. And it's not just with Leupolds, truthfully they are probably better then most of the major hunting scope brands in this regard.


If I was a zero and forget it kind of person, then I would have no problem using most Leupolds for hunting. Like I said they will hold a zero through rough handling, which is something I can not say for most. Since I'm not a set and forget guy and I like using my hunting rifle to it's full capability, I want to be able to dial. So I use Leupold fixed power scopes. Specifically 6x's. They are durable, reliable and track well.

Top
#6444338 - 04/25/12 08:56 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
Guys I appreciate the thanks but there is no reason for it. There are a lot of people that have paid a heavy price in the last decade and I'm not one of them. I've lived my childhood dream for the last 7+ years.

I disagree...because of you, and men and women like you, we, here on American soil need fear no foreign invasions, bombs falling from enemies of America and even terrorism has been contained. I am 99.99% sure that when I wake up in the morning, everything domestically will be just like it was when I go to sleep tonight. That is because of the brave men & women of our armed forces and we, the civilian population, do owe each and every one of you a heartfelt thank you for your service. Praise God that you were not seriously maimed or killed, but that in no way diminishes the fact that you did serve and did put your life on the line for those of us "back home".









_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6444383 - 04/25/12 09:17 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
F, of the issues you have seen with the Leupy's not maintaining accurate tracking adjustments, does it occur on a particular weapon system? Also, does the problem usually show up after a given number of shots or adjustments? In an earlier post, you said something like 30% of the Leupolds have malfunctions. Does this mean that the remaining 70% performed as advertised, indefinitely? Also, just out of curiosity, how many rounds do you guys fire during your training in CONUS, and on what weapon systems/calibers? Thanks for your time.

Jeff
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6444417 - 04/25/12 09:39 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Originally Posted By: Jeffrey
F, of the issues you have seen with the Leupy's not maintaining accurate tracking adjustments, does it occur on a particular weapon system? Also, does the problem usually show up after a given number of shots or adjustments? In an earlier post, you said something like 30% of the Leupolds have malfunctions. Does this mean that the remaining 70% performed as advertised, indefinitely? Also, just out of curiosity, how many rounds do you guys fire during your training in CONUS, and on what weapon systems/calibers? Thanks for your time.

Jeff




It is common to see 2 to 3 Leupold variables out of 10 have issues in a week long class, figuring anywhere from 500-1,000 rounds depending on what rifle is used. So I can't say the other 70% work indefinitely. To be sure some do and some don't. Recoil doesn't seem to be the problem. On military guns they are used on 5.56mm, 308's, 300WinMags, and .50's. With a few 338 Lapua's thrown in for good measure.


Round count varies from unit to unit in the military. Most in the conventional Army do not get near enough. With the military, my training company and competition I see well over 100,000 rounds shot at long range a year.

Top
#6444919 - 04/26/12 06:06 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
Wow, that's a lot of shooting! I'm envious.
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6444975 - 04/26/12 06:25 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
On rifles that were accurate enough to tell,I never had a loopie go over 1500 rounds without issues.Most dont make it that far.
Seen it time and again.
The loopie erector will die in increments.
The scope itself will still function but have .3 to .6 of crap in the erector.
Sometime more.
Very commen.
Not something the 2 box of shells a year kinda guy would notice.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6445041 - 04/26/12 06:44 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dave7mm]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
Dammit! I wish I had known this before I put a Mark 4 on my 700P. So far so good, but I haven't put more than probably 500 rounds through it yet. What do you guys do when you have this problem? Scrap a thousand dollar scope? I hope there is a less painful way...
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6445094 - 04/26/12 06:59 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Well i've never seen it but I do hear of the odd loopie that will hold up.
Maybe you'll get luckey.
Education can be painful.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6445104 - 04/26/12 07:01 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
ryanjay11 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/02/10
Posts: 592
Loc: Missouri
When it breaks, just send it in and they will fix it. They have had plenty of practice to get their customer service to a level that other brands can't match. crazy

Top
#6445112 - 04/26/12 07:03 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: ryanjay11]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
I'll keep my fingers crossed. Or maybe I can get my money out of it on ebay. If I do that now, I can honestly say there is nothing wrong with it at least.
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6445224 - 04/26/12 07:34 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
Ackleyfan Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 5907
Leupold will always fix it then you can trip it...no big deal!

Top
#6445226 - 04/26/12 07:35 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
HiredGun Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/03/04
Posts: 601
Loc: North Bend OR
I have never lost a cent buying Leupold glass. When ever my needs changed and needed to sell one I have always at least broke even and a few times almost doubled my money. History has proven investing in Leupold has shown to be a better place for my money than a savings account. It would be interesting to hear what long time users of Night Force are getting back on their investment.
_________________________
Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6445288 - 04/26/12 07:50 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: HiredGun]
JGRaider Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 13226
Loc: W. Texas
Last I heard, every scope mfg had a customer service/repair department......
_________________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.

Top
#6445479 - 04/26/12 08:30 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dodgefan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/21/07
Posts: 599
Loc: Colorado
Formidilosus
Like You I have been a slotted sniper for several years. And have seen/used all the scopes you mention, by far the most problems we have seen are with the MK 4 M2 3.5-10 SASS scope.
The M3 LR has been relatively trouble free comparatively.
I saw my first Nightforce failure the other day. One of the 3.5-15 F1 H58 reticle. Have to send it back to find out what happened.
To the OP I really don't think you can go wrong with either choice for your stated purpose. Personally I prefer Nightforce, but would be happy with with the Leupold.

Top
#6445746 - 04/26/12 09:39 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dodgefan]
Fotis Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 7690
Loc: Cheyenne, Wy
I opted for the SWFA SS-HD 5-20x50mm. Just ordered it
_________________________


"Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Top
#6445793 - 04/26/12 09:57 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
Formidilosus, so now Leupold does make scopes that work, but most of other Leupold scopes fail at a 20-30% rate which is unacceptable for military use ?
Want to explain why the military uses such scopes ? Or do they ?
Again, 20-30% fail ? Again, which Leupolds ? Even you have posted that the much cheaper 6X42, FX3's work fine and are reliable.
Oh, BTW, how about the MRT series ? The military didn't request their development and they are not used by them ?
I'll grant my informnation about how many Nightforce scopes the military buys is incomplete. I believe I alluded to that. Wonderful.
You odviously know more about military sniping than I do. That's fine. But I know a few things about Leupolds. When you start telling us they fail at a 20-30% rate, I have to question what you are refering to. Because that's a very long way from what I've seen.
Apparently "failure" means the scope didn't track perfectly each and every time. But, again, even you admit that some of them do. But you keep insisting on saying that they aren't reliable w/o describing which ones. Hardly fair to compare a cheap hunting scope to a far more expensive tactical scope. And to call all of them unreliable because their cheaper models don't measure up to the rigors of tactical use. E


Edited by Eremicus (04/26/12 10:04 AM)

Top
#6445827 - 04/26/12 10:05 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
hunting1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 2934
Loc: Albuquerque, NM, USA
I love my Mk4 LR! I have it on a .308, so hope it is the minority. From a one vet to another, thanks!
_________________________
Good Shooting!

Top
#6445858 - 04/26/12 10:17 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Any amount of failure is unacceptable on a two way rifle range.
Im reminded of the picture of the Nightforce that ate a bullet,
and kept on ticking.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6445916 - 04/26/12 10:34 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
dodgefan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/21/07
Posts: 599
Loc: Colorado
Haven't got to play with one of those yet. I almost bought one, but the lack of a zero stop pushed me in another direction. I have been bit by the one full revolution under in a match a couple of times. (slow learner I guess)

Top
#6445984 - 04/26/12 10:58 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeff_O]
jorgeI Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 21641
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
+2

Hate war


What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Who the phuck loves war anyway? Do you also hate rainy days traffic lights and rude people? kee-rist. Otherwise a great informative thread.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe_redux
Whatever, immigrant.

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy,it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. WLS Churchill

Top
#6446047 - 04/26/12 11:16 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Eremicus
Formidilosus, so now Leupold does make scopes that work, but most of other Leupold scopes fail at a 20-30% rate which is unacceptable for military use ?...//...And to call all of them unreliable because their cheaper models don't measure up to the rigors of tactical use. E

E, he posted which models were having a 20% to 30% failure rate. Go back and read for comprehension this time rather than just posting more inane drivel.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6446102 - 04/26/12 11:36 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: jorgeI]
Jeff_O Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 26248
Loc: Wetter'n Oregon
Originally Posted By: jorgeI
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
+2

Hate war


What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Who the phuck loves war anyway? Do you also hate rainy days traffic lights and rude people? kee-rist. Otherwise a great informative thread.


Some hotheaded wingnuts (Jorge!) mistake my desire to see the US engage in much less war, and my willingness to criticize recent politicians for engaging us in adventurous wars, as being anti-military and, by extension, anti-soldier. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Soldiers are the best. Now STFU and let a good thread continue without your hysterics, please.
_________________________
Aim small, miss small
Think small, miss big

Top
#6446183 - 04/26/12 11:58 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Eremicus
Formidilosus,...//...Even you have posted that the much cheaper 6X42, FX3's work fine and are reliable.

Funny how you picked THAT sentence out of his post, but missed entirely when he listed which Leupold scopes were experiencing a 20% to 30% failure rate. Must be a case of selective comprehension and/or blindness. You're a mullet E...a plain ol' muck sucking mullet.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6446276 - 04/26/12 12:22 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
RDFinn Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 16541
Loc: Bernardsville, NJ
Eremicus, if you are going to break this guys balls with unsubstantiated BS, at least you could read his posts......you know...extend the guy some freakin curiosity.


Originally Posted By: Formidilosus


These are the Leupolds issued in the military.

Ultra M3A (or MK4) 10x40
MK4 LR M3 3.5-10x40
MK4 4.5-14x50 M1
TS-30 A2 3𥛻6
MK8 1.1-8x24 CQBSS
MK4 34mm 6.5-20x50

There are/were a few others in limited numbers.


The only ones that don't have consistent problems are the fixed 10x, the MK8 CQBSS, and the new 34mm 6.5-20x50.


The rest fail at an unacceptable rate for military sniper use.


Top
#6446285 - 04/26/12 12:24 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Magnumdood]
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
Funny you mentioned reading skills here Dood. He commented that the Leupold posted would not be as good as the Nightforce mentioned. Then he says later that Leupold variables aren't reliable. Then he lists the Mk.4 3.5-10X40 variable as in service by the US military. But we are suppose to believe that Leupold variables aren't reliable......
Oh, I nearly forgot. Didn't he mentioned the new Mk8 scopes as also being in service with the military ?
All I can say is that our poor military guys sure do shoot alot of unreliable variable Leupolds.
Funny they don't wise up and use Nightforce scopes instead.
Most of the serious tactical shooters and ex military guys I've run into over the years say they are both excellent. The trick is to buy the NXS or the Mk.4 Leupold that meets your requirements. Try to get by with a cheap Leupold converted to tactical shooting by adding a few dials and it might not work under heavy use.
On the other hand, don't believe that NXS scopes will last forever under any conditions. Their very long waiting time proves that isn't so. E


Edited by Eremicus (04/26/12 12:25 PM)

Top
#6446486 - 04/26/12 01:23 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Originally Posted By: Eremicus
All I can say is that our poor military guys sure do shoot alot of unreliable variable Leupolds.
E


Yep.

dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6446593 - 04/26/12 02:00 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
cfran Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1704
Loc: Minnesota
Please E leave it alone, your reading comprehension alone has me feeling sorry for you. Cripes I've seen 100 different people alone try and tell you how to spell "obvious" and "trophy" and you still spell it wrong every time. But the shame in this entire thread is the fact that you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Top
#6446743 - 04/26/12 02:41 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: cfran]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
cfran,

E is a fuggin' mullet. He's too old to change or read with comprehension being the goal. He reads looking for his own two or three preconceived notions. When he finds them, that's the center piece for his argument. When he doesn't, he just skips over that part of the post. He's a worthless mullet.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6446759 - 04/26/12 02:47 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Magnumdood]
cfran Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 12/29/05
Posts: 1704
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Magnumdood
cfran,

E is a fuggin' mullet. He's too old to change or read with comprehension being the goal. He reads looking for his own two or three preconceived notions. When he finds them, that's the center piece for his argument. When he doesn't, he just skips over that part of the post. He's a worthless mullet.


I don't harbor any anger for E, quite the contrary. I'm not sure calling anyone a "mullet" will do any good, with that said it sure would be nice if he'd stop with the lies/misinformation. Otherwise I agree that you've nailed his mode of operation.

Top
#6446806 - 04/26/12 03:00 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeff_O]
avagadro Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/01/02
Posts: 10416
Loc: Tri-Cities, Washington State
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
Originally Posted By: jorgeI
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
+2

Hate war


What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Who the phuck loves war anyway? Do you also hate rainy days traffic lights and rude people? kee-rist. Otherwise a great informative thread.


Some hotheaded wingnuts (Jorge!) ... Soldiers are the best. Now STFU ...


You are aware that Jorge1 has given a career serving his country as a US Naval Aviator .... Jeff STFU! wink ... As 'Stick often said, YOU could learn a lot by taking notes and not yapping
_________________________
George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted By: GOD
... That is when I carried you ...

Top
#6446884 - 04/26/12 03:30 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: avagadro]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
Jimminy cricket.

If we could talk about scopes that would be nice. Regardless of what all of you are saying about Leupolds, from what I am getting out of this thread, they are being issued to troops deploying in theatre. That must mean something. If not, why are they still issued?

F, do you guys just swap out scopes, zero them and get back to business when one goes south? What is the SOP for a defective scope and getting that weapon back in the fight?


Edited by Jeffrey (04/26/12 03:32 PM)
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6446924 - 04/26/12 03:46 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: avagadro]
jorgeI Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 21641
Loc: Orange Park, Florida
My intent is NOT to hijack this thread and I apologize but suffice to say I have neither the desire nor patience to dig up the scads of things JeffObama has spewed about the armed forces and again WTF does "hating war" have to to with this thread? AV thanks for the kind words and again I apologize to all but this jerk just makes me nuts. jorge
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Cossatotjoe_redux
Whatever, immigrant.

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy,it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. WLS Churchill

Top
#6447116 - 04/26/12 04:45 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: cfran]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: cfran
I don't harbor any anger for E, quite the contrary. I'm not sure calling anyone a "mullet" will do any good, with that said it sure would be nice if he'd stop with the lies/misinformation. Otherwise I agree that you've nailed his mode of operation.

When anyone on the field pulled a bone-headed play, or the guy you could count on to screw up, did, our coaches called them a mullet. As far as calling E a mullet doing any good; it makes me feel better. If others are offended by such an innocuous word as "mullet" perhaps they're on the wrong forum.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6447129 - 04/26/12 04:50 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: jorgeI]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
E, why are you speculating on military sniper optics? You have no clue what you are talking about. "Serious tactical shooters or ex military???? Give me a break. That statement is all the more ludicrous because you are "arguing" with a sniper right now. I have been issued and used the M110, M24, MK12 MOD 0 and MOD 1, SR 25, M2010, MK 13 MOD 5, M82 and M107 Barrett, among others.

Leupold has only one (1) variable scope that was selected over other optics by the military. That being the MK8 1.1-8x CQBSS. The rest came as a package with the weapon system. Knight Armament chose the MK4 3.5-10x40 LR as the scope to put on the M110 SASS. Remington chose the 6.5-20x50 34mm MK4 for the M2010, and Barrett chose the MK4 4.5-14x50 for the M107.

The sniper scopes that have been tested and won contracts by the military in the last ten years are Schmidt and Bender and Nightforce.


Leupold is starting to get their head right and are producing some truly good scopes with the 34mm tube 6.5-20x50 MK4, the MK8 line, and the new MK 6's show promise.

Top
#6447138 - 04/26/12 04:55 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Eremicus]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Eremicus
Funny you mentioned reading skills here Dood. He commented that the Leupold posted would not be as good as the Nightforce mentioned. Then he says later that Leupold variables aren't reliable. Then he lists the Mk.4 3.5-10X40 variable as in service by the US military. But we are suppose to believe that Leupold variables aren't reliable......
Oh, I nearly forgot. Didn't he mentioned the new Mk8 scopes as also being in service with the military ?
All I can say is that our poor military guys sure do shoot alot of unreliable variable Leupolds.
Funny they don't wise up and use Nightforce scopes instead.
Most of the serious tactical shooters and ex military guys I've run into over the years say they are both excellent. The trick is to buy the NXS or the Mk.4 Leupold that meets your requirements. Try to get by with a cheap Leupold converted to tactical shooting by adding a few dials and it might not work under heavy use.
On the other hand, don't believe that NXS scopes will last forever under any conditions. Their very long waiting time proves that isn't so. E

This little passage proves beyond any doubt that you lack even rudimentary critical thinking skills.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6447184 - 04/26/12 05:06 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Originally Posted By: Jeffrey
Jimminy cricket.
F, do you guys just swap out scopes, zero them and get back to business when one goes south? What is the SOP for a defective scope and getting that weapon back in the fight?



Depends on the system and unit. For the M24 it had to go back to Remington as it was a "System".

Top
#6447403 - 04/26/12 05:54 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Formidilosus
What would be your current favorite unit?

What would be your dream unit?

Say for out to 1000 yards


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6447462 - 04/26/12 06:07 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
Originally Posted By: Jeffrey
Jimminy cricket.
F, do you guys just swap out scopes, zero them and get back to business when one goes south? What is the SOP for a defective scope and getting that weapon back in the fight?



Depends on the system and unit. For the M24 it had to go back to Remington as it was a "System".


Awesome... I wonder how much tax payers have to pay for such model efficiency.
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6447469 - 04/26/12 06:08 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
So say someday my Mark 4 variable takes a dive, would I be wise in replacing it with the fixed 10x Mark 4?
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6447472 - 04/26/12 06:09 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Magnumdood]
JGRaider Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 13226
Loc: W. Texas
Originally Posted By: Magnumdood

When anyone on the field pulled a bone-headed play, or the guy you could count on to screw up, did, our coaches called them a mullet. As far as calling E a mullet doing any good; it makes me feel better. If others are offended by such an innocuous word as "mullet" perhaps they're on the wrong forum.



The only mullet you know anything about is the one you wore on your head back in the 80's..... grin
_________________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.

Top
#6447500 - 04/26/12 06:15 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
E, why are you speculating on military sniper optics? You have no clue what you are talking about. "Serious tactical shooters or ex military???? Give me a break. That statement is all the more ludicrous because you are "arguing" with a sniper right now. I have been issued and used the M110, M24, MK12 MOD 0 and MOD 1, SR 25, M2010, MK 13 MOD 5, M82 and M107 Barrett, among others.

Leupold has only one (1) variable scope that was selected over other optics by the military. That being the MK8 1.1-8x CQBSS. The rest came as a package with the weapon system. Knight Armament chose the MK4 3.5-10x40 LR as the scope to put on the M110 SASS. Remington chose the 6.5-20x50 34mm MK4 for the M2010, and Barrett chose the MK4 4.5-14x50 for the M107.

The sniper scopes that have been tested and won contracts by the military in the last ten years are Schmidt and Bender and Nightforce.


Leupold is starting to get their head right and are producing some truly good scopes with the 34mm tube 6.5-20x50 MK4, the MK8 line, and the new MK 6's show promise.

I bolded the passage of particular interest for you E. Did you notice the very conspicuous absence of the Leupold brand in that passage? Hmmmmm?
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6447532 - 04/26/12 06:20 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: Jeffrey
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
Originally Posted By: Jeffrey
Jimminy cricket.
F, do you guys just swap out scopes, zero them and get back to business when one goes south? What is the SOP for a defective scope and getting that weapon back in the fight?



Depends on the system and unit. For the M24 it had to go back to Remington as it was a "System".


Awesome... I wonder how much tax payers have to pay for such model efficiency.

Surely you aren't serious...are you? Hussein has wasted BILLIONS on drivel. Snipers are a very small portion of the armed forces. If sniper units sent the whole system back for a stripped out screw head it wouldn't even register on the bottom line of our defense budget. Hussein has wasted BILLIONS on trying to ruin capitalism and our fossil fuel economy.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6447566 - 04/26/12 06:29 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: jorgeI]
Jeff_O Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/21/07
Posts: 26248
Loc: Wetter'n Oregon
Originally Posted By: jorgeI
My intent is NOT to hijack this thread and I apologize but suffice to say I have neither the desire nor patience to dig up the scads of things JeffObama has spewed about the armed forces and again WTF does "hating war" have to to with this thread? AV thanks for the kind words and again I apologize to all but this jerk just makes me nuts. jorge


Boy, you are one screechy little teakettle.

If you did have the patience and desire to dig through the scads of things I've said about our military you'll not find me denigrating the soldier. Ever. You will find me talking about the size, cost, and mission-- which are things you yourself have your issues with-- so please, either back up what you claim about me or STFU. But enough with the petulance and distortions. Not cool.
_________________________
Aim small, miss small
Think small, miss big

Top
#6447580 - 04/26/12 06:32 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
RDFinn Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 16541
Loc: Bernardsville, NJ
Bro, this is way to much information for him to digest. After reading that, he'll probably start quoting DEVA tests or perhaps school you on proper focusing techniques.


Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
E, why are you speculating on military sniper optics? You have no clue what you are talking about. "Serious tactical shooters or ex military???? Give me a break. That statement is all the more ludicrous because you are "arguing" with a sniper right now. I have been issued and used the M110, M24, MK12 MOD 0 and MOD 1, SR 25, M2010, MK 13 MOD 5, M82 and M107 Barrett, among others.

Leupold has only one (1) variable scope that was selected over other optics by the military. That being the MK8 1.1-8x CQBSS. The rest came as a package with the weapon system. Knight Armament chose the MK4 3.5-10x40 LR as the scope to put on the M110 SASS. Remington chose the 6.5-20x50 34mm MK4 for the M2010, and Barrett chose the MK4 4.5-14x50 for the M107.

The sniper scopes that have been tested and won contracts by the military in the last ten years are Schmidt and Bender and Nightforce.


Leupold is starting to get their head right and are producing some truly good scopes with the 34mm tube 6.5-20x50 MK4, the MK8 line, and the new MK 6's show promise.



Top
#6447589 - 04/26/12 06:34 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeff_O]
RDFinn Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 16541
Loc: Bernardsville, NJ
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
Originally Posted By: jorgeI
My intent is NOT to hijack this thread and I apologize but suffice to say I have neither the desire nor patience to dig up the scads of things JeffObama has spewed about the armed forces and again WTF does "hating war" have to to with this thread? AV thanks for the kind words and again I apologize to all but this jerk just makes me nuts. jorge


Boy, you are one screechy little teakettle.

If you did have the patience and desire to dig through the scads of things I've said about our military you'll not find me denigrating the soldier. Ever. You will find me talking about the size, cost, and mission-- which are things you yourself have your issues with-- so please, either back up what you claim about me or STFU. But enough with the petulance and distortions. Not cool.



Why don't you two take this feud some place else.


Top
#6447618 - 04/26/12 06:41 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: RDFinn]
TXRam Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/07/06
Posts: 2711
Loc: Houston, TX
Unless ALOT has changed since I was in the Army, just 'cause the military uses something, doesn't mean it's good, reliable, etc. When I was in (15-20yrs ago), alot of our equipment was junk.

Listening to the actual users (like Formidilosus) experience/opinions/etc. gives better info on the stuff than just knowing that it's used by the military. Not saying Leupold is junk, etc. (I have several myself on hunting rifles and I like 'em), just saying don't think just 'cause the military uses something that it must be the best of the best.
_________________________
"Mourn the dead, help the wounded and kill the perpetrators." - Campfire member "If It Flies It Dies" on 9/11/01


Top
#6447650 - 04/26/12 06:50 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 33489
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Formidilosus,

Thanks not just for your service but the excellent info you've provided on this thread. I've used a lot of various brands of scopes but not usually on the same sorts of rifles you have experience with.

One of the things I found interesting was your comments on fixed 6x Leupolds for your own hunting. What's your experience with higher-X fixed Leupolds?
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

Top
#6447679 - 04/26/12 06:58 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: TXRam]
RDFinn Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/02/06
Posts: 16541
Loc: Bernardsville, NJ
Originally Posted By: TXRam
Unless ALOT has changed since I was in the Army, just 'cause the military uses something, doesn't mean it's good, reliable, etc. When I was in (15-20yrs ago), alot of our equipment was junk.

Listening to the actual users (like Formidilosus) experience/opinions/etc. gives better info on the stuff than just knowing that it's used by the military. Not saying Leupold is junk, etc. (I have several myself on hunting rifles and I like 'em), just saying don't think just 'cause the military uses something that it must be the best of the best.


I agree with you completely. My career was in law enforcement, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of buying and using equipment from "the lowest bidder". I just think it's amusing that Eremicus is arguing with a guy who is currently in the military and speaking from his own experience. Frankly, Eremicus is making an absolute fool of himself.

Top
#6447802 - 04/26/12 07:22 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: RDFinn]
Magnumdood Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 9048
Loc: Working my way back to Texas
Originally Posted By: RDFinn
...Frankly, Eremicus is making an absolute fool of himself.


Roy,

That's a rhetorical statement; one that goes without saying.

A fool can only be a fool regardless of how hard he tries to pretend otherwise.
_________________________
Ralph J.

PROUD NRA Lifetime Member



Top
#6447913 - 04/26/12 07:47 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Mule Deer]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Originally Posted By: dave7mm
Formidilosus
What would be your current favorite unit?

What would be your dream unit?

Say for out to 1000 yards


dave





Scope, rifle, or both?





Originally Posted By: Jeffrey
So say someday my Mark 4 variable takes a dive, would I be wise in replacing it with the fixed 10x Mark 4?




That depends if a fixed power scope will meet your needs? To be sure the fixed power Mark 4's are more reliable. I would look towards another scope before running a fixed 10x scope again though. There are several variable scopes on the market that will be, and are as reliable as the MK4 10x40.






Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Formidilosus,

Thanks not just for your service but the excellent info you've provided on this thread. I've used a lot of various brands of scopes but not usually on the same sorts of rifles you have experience with.

One of the things I found interesting was your comments on fixed 6x Leupolds for your own hunting. What's your experience with higher-X fixed Leupolds?



I have a lot more experience with the 6's then any other, for good reason as you know, however, I have seen no issues with a couple of 8x's (or 7.5's?), the 10x's and a 12x or two. I do know that the bench rest crowd has "serious" problems with the fixed power competition models, but then again they will notice a tenth of an inch like it was a big pink elephant in the room. Of course you know this, but any fixed power scope is going to be more reliable and durable then a comparable variable all else being equal.

Top
#6447940 - 04/26/12 07:54 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 33489
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Thanks for the info. I haven't tried the benchrest fixed Leupolds, but have been told by top benchresters of the "problems" getting the last few hundredths of an inch in group size. I do have a Mark 4 10x on one of my hunting rifles and so far it has worked very well. Time will tell!

My wife likes even more magnification in hunting scopes than I do, and has been switching over to the 8x36 M8 when she can find them. I kinda wish they made an 8x42 FX-III or something like that, but also doubt there's much of a market for one!
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

Top
#6447944 - 04/26/12 07:54 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Originally Posted By: Fotis
I opted for the SWFA SS-HD 5-20x50mm. Just ordered it




Good choice.

Top
#6447953 - 04/26/12 07:56 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
I'm looking at shooting out to a thousand yards with my 700P. I have a 3.5x10 now, and I think it is plenty of magnification. Come to think of it, I don't really ever take it off 10x anyway.
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6447959 - 04/26/12 07:58 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Mule Deer]
Jeffrey Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/09/09
Posts: 2628
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Thanks for the info. I haven't tried the benchrest fixed Leupolds, but have been told by top benchresters of the "problems" getting the last few hundredths of an inch in group size. I do have a Mark 4 10x on one of my hunting rifles and so far it has worked very well. Time will tell!

My wife likes even more magnification in hunting scopes than I do, and has been switching over to the 8x36 M8 when she can find them. I kinda wish they made an 8x42 FX-III or something like that, but also doubt there's much of a market for one!


If I had my dream, pre-64 300 H&H, the scope you just invented would be my first choice.
_________________________
Big gulps huh. Well, see ya later...

Top
#6448108 - 04/26/12 08:49 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Jeffrey]
dodgefan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/21/07
Posts: 599
Loc: Colorado
Formidilosus
If that picture you posted is your unit training we probably know a few people in common. On a side note we just picked up a couple of the new Schmidts with the Tremor 2 reticle for the 300 WM.

Top
#6448223 - 04/26/12 09:53 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
Formidilosus
What would be your current favorite unit?

What would be your dream unit?

Say for out to 1000 yards
dave

Scope, rifle, or both?

Both.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6448228 - 04/26/12 10:01 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Mule Deer]
gerrygoat Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 1483
Loc: B.C.
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Thanks for the info. I haven't tried the benchrest fixed Leupolds, but have been told by top benchresters of the "problems" getting the last few hundredths of an inch in group size. I do have a Mark 4 10x on one of my hunting rifles and so far it has worked very well. Time will tell!

My wife likes even more magnification in hunting scopes than I do, and has been switching over to the 8x36 M8 when she can find them. I kinda wish they made an 8x42 FX-III or something like that, but also doubt there's much of a market for one!


Will something like this do?

http://swfa.com/Leupold-8x40-FX-II-Riflescope-P50857.aspx

Top
#6448966 - 04/27/12 07:33 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: gerrygoat]
JGRaider Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 13226
Loc: W. Texas
After reading this thread, and what I consider to be expert opinion and actual use from Formidilosis, I have brilliantly come to the following conclusions:

1. If you're a sniper or tactical guy and shoot a whole lot,
use something besides Leupold.
2. If you're a hunter, you'll likely never wear out a Leupold
_________________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.

Top
#6448996 - 04/27/12 07:44 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: JGRaider]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Originally Posted By: JGRaider
After reading this thread, and what I consider to be expert opinion and actual use from Formidilosis, I have brilliantly come to the following conclusions:

1. If you're a sniper or tactical guy and shoot a whole lot,
use something besides Leupold.
2. If you're a hunter, you'll likely never wear out a Leupold



Thats a good point but im reminded of guys I know that have what should be very accurate rifles.Say .5 moa kinda guns.But they can never quite get there.
The rifle hovers around 1 moa or more.
They play with loads and seating depths and screw around with all manner of crap.But never really solve there problem.
And almost everytime I've seen this, its got a loopie on top..
Granted the 2 box a shells a year kinda guy, will never be able to tell.
But with loopie, if you get out and shoot alittle more.You will either see it,or cause it to happen.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6450078 - 04/27/12 01:11 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dave7mm]
JGRaider Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/23/05
Posts: 13226
Loc: W. Texas
I dont' shoot my deer guns a whole lot compared to some guys here, but I probably put 100 rounds on them every year. I've had 3 different Leupy's, a Swaro A, a Conquest, and an old 4x Denver Redfield on a particular Tikka 695 7mag I like. I've shot.5-.750 groups routinely with every Leupold that's been on there, all with factory ammo. I haven't had a single hunter show up in camp (probably 75 or so) that's had trouble with a Leupold either. Coincidenc?, maybe so, but I don't think Leupold failures on hunting rigs are very common at all. The SwaroA is the only one that gave up on me.
_________________________
A cruel truth is much more desirable than a really nice lie.

Top
#6450327 - 04/27/12 02:22 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: JGRaider]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
JG

I have a old 24x friction style AO loopie that I've had for decades on a chuck gun.
Never a problem.
SO far.


dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6450360 - 04/27/12 02:35 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: JGRaider]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5180
Loc: Montana
for my hunting, i MUCH prefer an 8# all up rifle wearing a Leupold to a 10# rifle wearing a NF.

these are a couple of my .264s that i had chambered with the same reamer/gauges for different purposes. the heavy has a Lilja #7 and NF 3.5-15 NXS, while the lower one has a Brux barrel and 6x42 scope. the bottom one hunts

_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

Top
#6450570 - 04/27/12 04:07 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: toad]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
nice

dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6450675 - 04/27/12 04:32 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Ackleyfan Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 5907
Formidilosus, any experience with the March 2.5x25x42?

Top
#6451389 - 04/27/12 07:52 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dave7mm]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
Originally Posted By: dave7mm

Scope, rifle, or both?

Both.


dave





Issued- the 300WinMag M2010 is easily the pick. The 34mm tube 6.5-20x50 Leupold has been working very well but I would still go with the NF 3.5-15x50 F1 with H59 reticle.


"Dream"- Remington MSR or AI AX in 300WinMag with the S&B 5-25x56mm PMII with an H59 reticle or a NF F1.




Having said that, the M2010 is a great system. The sniper community made a very good choice with it and for out to 1,500M or so it's as good as anything available.

Top
#6452385 - 04/28/12 08:31 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: gerrygoat]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 33489
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
gerrygoat,

Nope, the AO on an 8x is pretty much superfluous, especially in a big game rifle. What I'm thinking of is an 8x version of Leupold's 6x42 FX-3, which has superb optics and very reliable adjustments.
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

Top
#6452457 - 04/28/12 08:54 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Mule Deer]
gerrygoat Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 1483
Loc: B.C.
Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
gerrygoat,

Nope, the AO on an 8x is pretty much superfluous, especially in a big game rifle. What I'm thinking of is an 8x version of Leupold's 6x42 FX-3, which has superb optics and very reliable adjustments.


No doubt an 8X42 like you mention would be a really nice scope. Since they are offering a scope like the one in the link maybe it isn't too much of a stretch for them to offer an 8X42 big game version.

Top
#6452491 - 04/28/12 09:11 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Mule Deer]
Formidilosus Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 1079
MD,

I think that would be a very slick scope for Pronghorns or alpine animals like sheep/goats. In fact it just might be ideal. I would buy it.

Top
#6452497 - 04/28/12 09:13 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 33489
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
I'll propose it to Leupold! But ain't gonna hold my breath over it actually being produced....
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

Top
#6452524 - 04/28/12 09:27 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
gerrygoat Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 1483
Loc: B.C.
Originally Posted By: Formidilosus
MD,

I think that would be a very slick scope for Pronghorns or alpine animals like sheep/goats. In fact it just might be ideal. I would buy it.


I have an older 8X40 AO light duplex that's nice, I would likely buy a 8X42 too with a standard or LR duplex.

Top
#6452575 - 04/28/12 09:45 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Fotis]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 4988
Originally Posted By: Fotis
I want to get into LR shooting nothing formal.

I am looking at the NF 5.5x22x50 NXS and the
Leupold Mark 4 Tactical 8.5-25X50LR I can get the leo for 1300 and the NF for 1700.

What are the differences in tracking, clarity, reliability etc.

Any input would be great.


I have that NF scope. Clarity is good in both scopes but one is eggshell thick and the other can pound nails in boards with it. If your like me and breaks everything you touch get the NF but if you have that feminine touch get the Leupold.
_________________________
It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

Top
#6453263 - 04/28/12 02:54 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: 378Canuck]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5180
Loc: Montana
i had that NF scope. the tiny eye box diddn't work too well for me and i was more than happy to find someone that would trade his 3.5-15x NXS ZS MLR straight across. callin' the MK4 egg shell thick is kinda funny though.
_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

Top
#6454173 - 04/28/12 08:16 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: toad]
Ackleyfan Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 5907
How does the eye box of the 3.5x15NXS compare to a 3.5x10x 40 Leupold?

Top
#6454594 - 04/29/12 04:27 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Ackleyfan]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5180
Loc: Montana
IMO, the eye box of the 3.5-15X50 NXS is very similar to the 3.5-10X40 Leupold. both are user friendly.

in fairness, the eye box on the 5.5-22 is probably a product of the physical/optical properties of the scope, (magnification, size, ect...). the 56 mm version would undoubtedly offer more exit pupil making alignment with your eye less critical, but i don't know if it would do anything for the 'depth' of the eye box. the 5.5-22s i had were both the 50mm version. i refuse to suffer a 56mm scope on anything.

as always, selecting optics is all about balancing the compromises to suit your needs.
_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

Top
#6455107 - 04/29/12 08:12 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: toad]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 33489
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Yeah, I had a 5.5-22x NF for about a year. Great adjustments, better-than-average optics, built as tough as a high-quality brick--but finally figured out it wasn't anything I needed!
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

Top
#6457959 - 04/30/12 07:24 AM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Mule Deer]
Fotis Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 7690
Loc: Cheyenne, Wy
Well the SS HD is coming in today so I am excited!
_________________________


"Weatherby was too long so I nicknamed it "Bee""

Top
#6460155 - 04/30/12 06:58 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: Formidilosus]
dave7mm Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 6168
Loc: pa
Formidilosus
The 5-25x56 PMII with the P3 reticle.


Very addictive.

I have a M700 in 300 mag.
Ill have to read up on a M2010.

dave
_________________________

Only accurate rifles are interesting.

Top
#6460584 - 04/30/12 08:55 PM Re: Nightforce Vs Leupold [Re: dave7mm]
KDK Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 6165
Loc: home in OR!
That's a nice looking rig, Dave. Cool camo. I'm a little scared to try a PMII... I can't afford to rescope a bunch of rifles with Alpha glass!
_________________________
Originally Posted By: ingwe
This is a shooting forum, there is no place here for logic.

Top
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >


Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
Support Our Sponsors 1
Who's Online
777 registered (01Foreman400, 1040, 10ring1, 101857, 12savage, 12344mag, 84 invisible), 1363 Guests and 361 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Support Our Sponsors 2
Forum Stats
50675 Members
72 Forums
638652 Topics
9167502 Posts

Max Online: 4366 @ 10/05/10 09:36 AM
Support Our Sponsors 3









Copyright 2000-2014 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.