Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Need Help W&C Scott and Son

Have this beautiful old piece in my possession for the time being to give it a once over checkup and cleaning. Of course, I plan to go no further than that.

The piece is beautifully engraved, and appears to be some sort of Pinfire sxs in what looks to be 12 gauge.

Markings

Top of barrel
W & C Scott & Son Patentees 7 Doeset Place Pall Mall London

Lower receiver Tang
No. 207

No other marking except the engravings which include the screw heads.

Ideas on DOM and value are welcome. It was the owner's great grandfather's.

Thanks

Try "the British gun Pub" on gunboards. Lot of knowing people
there, some "Wrote the book".

A look at the barrel flats would tell a lot.
Proof marks from that era can be very instructive.


Pete

Great old gun! Can you imagine handling those pinfire rounds?

Here are some words from a GB listing for a Scott SxS centerfire gun that might be of value:

"W&C Scott & Son Chatsworth Damascus SxS 12 GA Shotgun. This collectible shotgun was made by W & C Scott & Son which were one of the major English gun makers dating back to 1834. This one is a 12 gauge double barrel side by side shotgun with a top lever break sidelock bar action and 28" damascus or laminated steel barrels marked "13" on both which denotes the bores. I think the model is Chatsworth but am not certain. The barrels are marked "W&C Scott & Son Patentees, Dorcet Place Pall Mall London". In 1871 the Dorset Place showroom in Pall Mall, London closed and the firm moved to 10 Great Castle Street, Regent Circus (now Oxford Circus) where the firm was to remain until 1899. So I would guess this shotgun probably dates to pre-1871."
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Here are some more interesting words from the GB forum:

"W.C. Scott, Ltd. - Established in 1834 by William Scott, located in Birmingham, England. In 1865 the firm contributed to the perfection of the English gun by developing the standard spindle, which connects the Purdey bolt to the top lever. The company remained in the family until 1897. At this time Scott merged with P.Webley & Son to form Webley & Scott Revolver and Arms Co.

Depending on condition:

Hammer guns - $1,000 to $3,000"
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And this:

"William Charles Scott was born in 1806, he was the son of a family who farmed at Bradfield Combust near Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk. Charles Scott, his brother, was born in 1807.
William Scott appears to have been apprenticed when he was 21 years old, probably to Benjamin Parker in Bury St Edmunds. As most people at this time started their apprenticeships at 14 it is possible his father insisted on him working on the family farm until he was 21 years old! Charles's career would almost certainly followed the same course.

In 1834, when his apprenticeship finished, William married Susan Middleditch and moved to Birmingham. In later years the company was to claim establishment in 1834, so it would appear that William became an outworker. It is known that his speciality was as a gun finisher, it is not known where he worked. Charles joined him in the business, probably within the year, and W & C Scott was established but the firm was not recorded in the street directories until 1840, by which time they occupied 11 Lench Street.

In 1835 William's elder son, William Middleditch Scott was born, the younger son, James Charles was born in 1837.

In 1842 the firm moved to 33 Lench Street and they took additional premises in 21 Loveday Street.

In 1849 they moved to Court, 4 Shadwell Street and in 1855 to 94-95 Bath Street.

Reports differ, but in either 1858 or 1862 William's son, William Middleditch Scott, joined the firm which became W & C Scott & Son; it appears that soon after this happened Charles Scott left, retired or died. This change of name indicates that James Charles Scott joined the firm at a later stage, but none-the-less he may have been working there; James Charles had little interest in making guns, he was artistic and was an engraver of considerable ability.

In 1864 the firm is reported to have moved to Bagot Street, other reports say they moved to The Premier Gun Works at 126 Lancaster Street. In any event, a showroom was opened at 7 Dorset Place, Pall Mall, London.

In 1865 Westley Richards or the firm of W Richards of Liverpool joined Moore & Harris in a partnership established to save the manufacturing business of Moore & Harris from closure, the venture failed and the business was bought by W & C Scott & Son within a year.

Also in 1865, W M Scott patented cocking indicators and the Scott Spindle (No. 2752), the spindle was used by Purdey for their double bolt and it became the standard opening mechanism for double barrelled guns.

It may have been in 1866 that James Charles Scott was made a partner in the firm.

In 1869 William Scott retired and William Middleditch took over the running of the business.

In 1870 an adjustable sliding front lump was patented under No. 452, this was popular abroad as any wear and looseness could be easily corrected.

In 1871 the Dorset Place showroom in London closed and the firm moved to 10 Great Castle Street, Regents Circus (now Piccadilly Circus) where they were to remain until 1899.

In 1872 an improvement to the adjustable front lump was patented. In 1873 patent No. 1268 covered a drop-down barrel action and gunstocks, and patent No. 1273 covered two mechanisms for linking the firing pins to the top lever. Patent No. 3756 covered a bolt locking mechanism (fore-end fastener?).

In 1874 a fore-end fastener was patented (No. 712) and a multi-bolt (two sprung cylindrical bolts on the standing breech)drop down barrel action locking mechanism (No. 2052); patent No. 3424 covered a hammerless action cocking mechanism.

In 1875 Scott patented an external barrel bolting system (No. 186), a choke boring system (No. 312), a top rib extension (with John Rigby) which became famous as the Triplex lever grip (No. 1902), and the Scott crystal cocking indicators (No. 3223). These last two patents were in production until 1892.

In 1876 W M Scott and Martin Scott (nephew - Gun Works Manager) patented three barrel bolting mechanisms (No. 615) but these were never produced in any quantity.

In 1878 Scott and Thomas Baker (action maker) patented a hammerless lock (No. 761) which was used by Holland & Holland, Cogswell & Harrison and others, this also remained in production until 1892.

In 1879 patent No. 706 with J V Needham and George Hinton covered an intercepting safety mechanism.

In 1882 William Middleditch Scott and Thomas Baker patented their gas check groove around the striker holes which vented laterally to the outside of the action (No. 617), and they patented an improvement to their 1878 patent which made their hammerless action self-opening (No. 1320).

In 1883 William Scott (the father) died. Also in that year W M Scott patented (No. 727) another self-opening action based on Thomas Perkes patent No. 1968 of 1878), and with Charles Proctor a barrel cocking mechnism (No. 3859).

In 1884 patent No 5564 covered another barrel cocking mechanism which cocked one lock as it opened and the other as it closed.

In 1887 W M Scott retired and James Charles Scott took over the running of the business. By this time the company were selling guns under their own name in the USA, but continued making sporting guns for the trade in the UK. They were the suppliers of some sidelocks and most of the boxlocks sold by provincial and Birmingham "gunmakers", and many of the top London firms sold Scott guns under their own names.

In 1897 W & C Scott & Son took over the firm of Richard Ellis & Son and then amalgamated with P Webley & Son to form Webley & Scott Revolver & Arms Co Ltd at enlarged premises at 81-91 Weaman Street (P Webley & Sons formerly occupied 82-89 Weaman Street). The Premier Gun Works at 123 Lancaster Street were retained. J C Scott retired (he had three sons, W J Scott and Harry E Scott who both emigrated to the USA, and F C Scott (Frederick Charles?) who opened his own business in Princip Street/Bath Street).

All the Scott rifle records were destroyed by fire in 1945."
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Here is a link to the Webley & Scott webpage. Apparently they're still in business:

http://www.webley.co.uk/content/His...id=4371-2d69af366955c1b1a9becb68c068e872
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Here is a link to the Webley & Scott page of a US dealer. The guns sell for about $1100:

http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/s...329211139+4294952837&catalogId=10051

Thanks for the info

Can't figure out how the latch works for the forearm, but it only goes one way.

Is it a latch or a key which must be pushed completely out of the fore end or nearly so?

Dunno. It's tight from 40 years of regular WD40 sprayings as it was in an attic. Seems like it is retained as it springs slowly back.

Nice gun. It would probably be fun and worth your while to make up a few cases so you can shoot it. I know it can be done but I've never done it.

It looks like the parent of my WC Scott 10 bore.

Hey Savage2005, take that weapon and a nice leisurely drive out west to Enid Ok and see JJ and George at Champlins, they can tell you exactly what that weapon is and if its safe for firing if you decide to do so, and may also have a line on ammo availability and or loading techniques.

Gunner

Can't afford the time off.

Got the forend off and it's marked 13 gauge.