Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 10mm Auto and AA#9, I think I have a winner here, intersting chrono results

Well, I loaded up my first ever semi auto pistol cartridges this month and SURPRISE they fed and fired and ran perfectly. My loads using AA#7 did not get me to my goals (Back to oroginal Norma loading numbers in my Delta Elite without excess pressure) so went with some slower AA#9 this week and just came back from chrono'ing. Interesting to me is that on the bottle of AA#9 powder is specifically says "A superior powder for maximum loads in the 10mm auto cartridge". Why did I not know or see that sooner? Luvin it so far.

Starting out with some new Starliine Nickel plated cases. Interesting to me is that some powder increases yielded essetially NO measureable increase in velocities. I started with 14.0 grains of AA#9 beind a Speer Gold Dot 180gr bullet sparked by a Winchester large pistol primer. Went up in .2 gr increments up to just under the book max of 14.9 and here are my results:

14.0 1275, 1329, 1291, 1284

14.2 1328, 1302, 1326, 1332

14.4 1339, 1355, 1325, 1327 Virtually NO change.... Hmmmmm

14.6 1370, 1384, 1375, 1381 My winner load

14.8 1366, 1379, 1369, 1370 No improvement in velocity over the 14.6 load, so no reason that I can see to increase a powder charge to that level.

Book max is 14.9, and I have hit my goal of 1375 with a 180 Gold Dot so I think I will load the rest of the new Starline nickel coated brass with 14.6gr of AA#9 and rock on.

NOW I feel like I have a 'real' 10mm auto

Next, I plan to try this powder with some 200gr FNHC bullets. Bears and Bowling pins donchaknow. Goal of 1300fps should be do able.

PS the 14.6 load shot its four into about 2 inches from a snadbagged rest at 25 yards so accuracy is plenty good as well. Gun might be able to do better than that, but I cannot!

Perfect Mark, and that should make a very formidable SD load.

Gunner

Kinda what I was thinking and 'shooting' for

Probably would put the kersmack on a deer, too!

No doubt about it puttin' a load on the meat pole

Gunner

I am not sure which book you are looking at, you didn't say. But I looked at the online accurate guide for no 9 powder and found this:
180grain hor. xtp 12.2 to 13.5 grains
200 grain hor. xtp 11.3 to 12.5 this is for no 9 powder
given what you said you are loading to, make your own decision.
I went back in some of my loading notes, and i was using no 7 accurate powder
horn 180gr xtp
10.5 grains
glock std barrel six inch barrel
1167fps 1268fps
1188fps 1265
1198fps 1291fps
1173fps 1263fps
1178fps 1277fps

with a 200 grain hor xtp in the glock 20
kkm barrels
standard six inch
1212 1298fps
1211 1285fps
1218 1266fps
1213 1283fps
1224 1265fps
this was with 13grains of No 9
i realize this is 1/2grain over, but a lot lighter than what you are talking about. I think you have been visiting those boys over at the glock site and some of their loads.
I would have to go check, but I DO have one of the old accurate reloading manuals from a number of years ago, and just from memory the loads are a little larger than what they are showing online today. But for my part i wouldn't rely on that statement, it's without checking.
I might add the next time i do some of these i will probably be DECREASING the grain wt. i was using, i don't see any reason to push them that hard.

I might add i ran than 200grain xtp load in a ruger blackhawk with a long tube:
1318fps
1302fps
1305fps
1290fps
1301fps
1295fps
I might add all the above was done with new starline brass, and wlp primers

i also ran some remington 155gr jhp for giggles, using new starline brass, winchester lp primers, and aa no 7 powder with 12.5grains
glock std six inch kkm
1331 1446
1307 1461
1345 1406
1313 1398
1324 1433fps
all of the above loads were out of my glock 20 at phoenix altitudes and while i didn't write down the temps, it was hot. And are only representative of my specific pistol on that day or the ruger blackhawk

Book max would appear to be 13.5

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/accurate_load_data_3.5.pdf

The only manual I had which showed any loads for AA#9 was the Hornaday manual and an older Accurate reloading data guide. Horny showed 14.9 max and Accurate showed 15.0 max. Being quite aware that changing bullets, even if the weight is the same and styles similar can have a big impact on pressures I went quite a ways below thier max loads with 14.0 as a starting point and worked up in .2 gr increments and never loaded what they listed as max for thier 180gr bullets. then I chronographed all the way up. If any of the loads had given speeds above 1400fps I would have quit right there. Brass looks fine with no bulging cases, chrono numbers show very good shot to shot SD, accuracy is good, numbers are what the 10mm was desigend to run so I loaded 80 more last night. These will not be target shooting or plinking loads and I will probably die with some of these still in their box. After I re test for feed and function with about 5-6 magazines full the remainder will be for carrying or hunting only. Practice and plinking will be done with cheap 180gr bullets at the more sedate 1250-1275 velocity now considered 'normal' loads for the 10mm.

I thnink I will start calling my newfound favorite pistol powder "Love potion #9" after the old song by that name

What is it Jim Carrey said....... " smokin ". Yeah baby.

Don't you love when something just comes together.

I pulled my speer reloading manual #12 this morning:
a 180 grain tmj or Gd-hp
for no 7 accurate powder it is showing 11 to 12 grains

for a 200grain tmj bullet
for accurate no 9, it is showing 12.5 to 14 grains
for accurate no 7 it is showing 10.5 to 11.6 grains.
My 200 grainer that i did at 13.0 was within this band, with no 9.
I seem to remember reading where those delta elites don't stand up well to the pounding of those top end loads. That comment should bring a few commentators out of the shadows.
Again, I fully realize from following a section on the glock forum on 10mm, both current and a closed one, what people are loading these too. There is a section in there on the various powder/bullet combinations. But when one is approaching or PAST the firewall on what i see in Speer's own book, i would be a little careful. And i don't know one has to have all that much speed anyway.
In another post i was mentioning finding some of the predecessor to the golddot, the .45 flying ashtrays. It was not a bonded bullet. But when running at max loads, i found it would separate, those prompting me to bring it down a little. I really don't think in a pistol 100 or so feet per second is going to make a use difference, and as others have pointed out in 9mm postings, you really don't need to abuse a gun by using +P+ loads.

Ah, Mark, what "book" did you get that from ?
I've got a loadbook with all of the loading data for the 10mm. Accurate Arms maximum for the 180 gr. Speer JHP is 14.5 grs. of AA#9 for 1290 fps...... And that's with Hornady, not Starline cases. Starline cases are significantly heavier. I shoot and load for both. I can look up the weights of each if you wish.
With Hornady's XTP, the maximum load is 13.5 grs. which is alot less, which indicates a big difference in bullet types.
The closest you can get to the old Norma load with a 170 gr. bullet is 15 grs. with a 170 gr. Nosler for 1341 fps. Again, Hornady cases.
The old Norma ammo was loaded over the SAAMI limits. E

Again, an older AA (15 years old or so, pre Saami spec for 10mm loadings perhaps) relaoding guide and the Hornaday reloading manual which showed 14.9 gr max with their 180. The AA guide had 15 grains max for a nondescript 190 grain load, so figured 14. something would be quite safe with 180's.

And, again, we moved up in gradual small steps, inspecting cases and chrono'ing all the way. Dead stop when goal / original spec loading speeds along with Buffalo Bore's current loading numbers were reached. Mission accomplished.

Average velocities & ES:

14.2 1322 and 30

14.4 1337 and 14

14.6 1378 and 11

14.8 1371 and 13

I didn't bother to calculate S.D. for these, partly because I'm lazy and partly because your sample size is too small for validity. But the extreme spread gives you a clue... and I agree, your 14.6 gr charge is probably your "sweet spot" load.

As eremicus has pointed out, there may be SIGNIFICANT changes in pressure when you change components with a high-pressure load like the 10mm. I'd strongly suggest you stick with book loads and do not assume that the 200 gr bullet you want to load will produce the same internal ballistics as the different 200 gr bullet listed in your manual.

Auto pistol rounds can produce HUGE pressure changes with very small changes in bullet length, seating length, etc. Don't mess with that stuff and you won't have a kaboom. Mess with it, and all bets are off.

In rifle loading, we sometimes change components around a bit but quit when the chronograph tells us we should (No, I don't wait for the old pressure signs like flattened primers, shiny spots on the brass or sticky extraction, those are often indicators that one has gone WAY too hot) so what indicators do we use for too high pressure in pistol loads if one is changing up the componenets a little? Certainly limiting ones self to a 100% carbon copy of the book compnents right down to the Nth degree is not completly neccesary, where is the room for experimentation and tweaking a load in that? I would think that using the chronograph like I did along with watching for bulging cases where they are not supported by the DE chamber would give a set of useful guidlines yet allow for some individual experimentation .

BTW, above is a serious and heartfelt question, not an argument starter in intent. How do YOU all here 'work up a load' for a high intesity cartridge? What would YOU do to reproduce the original Norma loadings in a 10mm or the similar Buffalo Bore loads? There has to be a safe way to get there, I thoguht using the slowest possible powder (these fill the cases up right to the base of the bullet, BTW) and working up using the indicators I did was the way to go, wondering how others would go about that. And no, I am not satisfied with the current crop of toned down factory loads. Safe reproduction of the loads that the nice folks at Dornaous and Dixon and Norma came up with, and which the Delta Elite was designed to run with, is the goal.

FWIW, my DE has dual recoil springs that could double as the rear suspension springs on my F-250

Speer ballisticians have found that in some high-pressure cartridges, changing the primer alone can cause a significant increase in pressure (5000+ PSI). Using a bullet that goes deeper into the case by 0.1" can increase the pressure even more.

My first priority in high pressure calibers is to use exactly the recommended primer and case. Internal volume of the case can vary significantly by manufacturer. I NEVER substitute case or primer from the recipe in hot calibers (40 S&W, 357 SIG, 10mm). In a 45 Auto you have a LOT more wiggle room.

Second priority is to be sure any bullet substitution takes seating depth into account, then double-check it by comparing velocities of the "right" bullet and my substituted bullet.

Your first pressure sign in an autoloader is probably going to be a kaboom.

First off I would never try to reach the original velocity of the old Norma 10mm ammo. The pressure is too high IMHO to duplicate today with canister powders available to the public

Buffalo Bore Ammo as well as other manufacturers of ammo have access to powder that we do not. Factory ammo is only shot once and continued reloading of cases at higher pressure in an auto loader is asking for a Ka-Boom IMHO

I'm pretty happy with 1250 to 1300fps with a 180. Generally the accuracy is good, and I don't feel like I have the accelerator ALL the way to the floor.

I've just started with 10 MM.... Bought a Glock 20 SF and added a 6" KKM barrel because I wanted "book load" high fps..... Getting avg 1330 fps with 2 th grain less than current max load of Long Shot with 180 XTP.

I also just bought some 800 x wil have to hand weigh trickle charge those loads but it may give me a few more fps than LS will....

Just put in an order for a custom heavy 10 MM mold.... Will dig up a link for those interested in a thumper load..

IMO Doc is correct about not screwing around with the ragged edge "nuclear" load date.... No subitutions of components and personally only new Starline Brass for max loads....

I'll only ever need a few hundred hot as they can be loaded rounds for hunting... Used brass will be loaded down a tad.... As long as they have the same POI that the max loads have I see no down side to this plan....