Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Savage & Thor Conicals

Has anyone ever used the Thor Conical bullets in a Savage Smokeless?

email terry at thor bullets, i believe thats what he shoots.

I've been thinking about that myself. Was gonna try it, but didn't think it would work with smokeless.

Jon, do you get a good tight fit with the Thors? How about the FPB's from Hornady? I know in my Savage, I need a really tight fit or it fizzes. Even with the Harvester crushed rib sabots, it fizzes because they are so loose.

I don't believe you'll get a tight enough fit for smokeless. Savage doesn't recommend Powerbelts either, and they generally fit tighter than a Thor.

A Thor is just a Barnes in bore size. Might as well shoot Barnes sabots.

in both the traditons and cva i do get a snug fit, the traditions fits the tightest.

hornady fpb is just horrible to load

Smokeless needs a really tight fit Jon. Remember it was designed to be in a cartridge.

Savage really wants a tight fitting sabot.

as long as the thor fits snug it should go off, i know terry shoots them in his savage along with other folks on dougs messageboards

Smokeless does not need a "really tight fit." I know this because I shoot smokeless muzzleloaders. I also have good friends that shoot them sabotless and just have a little bit of resistance going down the barrel and they shoot great.

This is where I read it. It seems savage doesn't recommend any conicals. It's explained in the letter from Savage.

http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-10MLII.htm




UPDATE October 17th, 2005

I just received an email from the engineering department at Savage strongly recommending AGAINST the use of the PowerBelt bullet with smokeless powder. They certainly know more than I about this, so I am including their message here:

"PowerBelts are just undersized conicals, measuring .499 dropping down the bore of the .501" land to land 10ML-II. Not truly "jacketed," they have a thin copper cladding. Some Powerbelts remain pure lead.

"Encouraging the use of Powerbelts has several detrimental consequences. While there may be no misfires with the double-based, 20% nitro AA5744-- misfires and unhappy customers are likely with Savage recommended N110 and SR4759, a certainty with the long recommended 4227.

"There is the 295 grain PowerBelt Jeff was using, but the better PowerBelts on game are the 348, 405, and 444 Flat Nose versions. These far heavier bullets will send pressures through the roof with smokeless.

"As the copper cladding is thin, it is torn up by the rifling-- not the case in a saboted projectile. Use of the old, unplated Powerbelts (sold as BlackBelts) will coat the bore with lead. A big problem to remove, the classic method being to use liquid mercury. After the still-sold unplated PowerBelts came the first "copper clad" PowerBelts that are still around - the plating is a light copper wash, just like in .22 rimfire ammo. It is so thin you can see the lead through the copper, making bore leading a certainty.

"Harvester makes a competitive bullet to the PowerBelt, the Sabretooth. It is a very thin copper wash that promises lead fouling. If the PowerBelt is okay, why not the Sabertooth?

"PowerBelts generally do not move off the charge with filthy Pyrodex or Black powder fouling. With the use of ultra clean smokeless, movement of the bullet off of the powder charge is a good possibility-- possibly creating a bore obstruction.

"The Savage 10ML-II manual has long suggested only bullets in sabots by MMP with smokeless. To encourage or allow the use of bore-sized conicals may create some or all of the problems listed above-- bore leading, dramatically increased pressures, bore obstruction, and use of other conicals that are lubed lead also creating misfires due to powder contamination from that lube and also bore leading.

"With a PowerBelt, all of these problems can easily manifest themselves.

"Saboted pistol bullets, while not a true 'pressure valve', are at least an accuracy pressure valve. Those that choose to break the rules and just add more powder destroy the sabot seal, and accuracy is gone. No such deterrent is present in Powerbelts and other conicals.

"As a practical matter, a 295 grain PowerBelt, bore sized, cannot fly as flat or hit as hard as a .452 diameter Hornady XTP. The ballistic coefficient of the larger caliber bullet is correspondingly poor.

"Misfires, bore leading, and bore obstructions-- as well as the dramatically increased pressure from heavier (348, 4405, 444 gr.) Powerbelts are all problematic.

"Right in the Savage 'recommended powder loads' appears this statement, which I believe is also in all the manuals: "Use smokeless powder loads with saboted bullets only. When loading and shooting bore-sized lead conical bullets, Savage Arms, Inc. recommends loading with "Pyrodex� RS", "Select", "Pyrodex� Pellets", or "Triple Seven". Maximum recommended charge is 150 grains." That should be enough right there to dissuade people from Powerbelts and other conicals-- the manual clearly does not allow their use with smokeless."

Jeff

I thought the thread was about Thors? This thing from Savage talks about how they strongly recommend against Powerbelts. I guess if you want to assume they don't recommend any conical you could but that doesn't refute the results that many smokeless shooters are getting from shooting sabotless projectiles.

You've most likely used neither.

PBs generally are loose in the bore, and are held in place by the plastic skirt. In my rifles, if you take the skirt off, they'll free-fall down the bore.

Did you miss this part? The sabot acts as a safety valve.


"Use smokeless powder loads with saboted bullets only. When loading and shooting bore-sized lead conical bullets, Savage Arms, Inc. recommends loading with "Pyrodex� RS", "Select", "Pyrodex� Pellets", or "Triple Seven".

No I didn't miss it and I know all about it because I actually own a smokeless muzzleloader and not just read stuff off the internet. Now you kept saying that smokeless needed a really tight fit, in fact you said it a couple times. Can you explain why you said that? Is your premise for that safety or accuracy? I would say that your not allowed to look this answer up on the internet but we all know you will so have it.

Listen, all I said was Savage didn't recommend using conicals. I don't need to own one to know that, and I passed it along.

Just trying to be helpful, and all you want to do is argue.

Maybe you know more than Savage eh?

Check on Doug's Message Boards. Some of the guys have with
mixed results.....some good, some bad. Having changed my
10MLII to .45, I have not tried the Thors.

For those who do not seem to know. Thors are not lead. They
are not remotely similar to Power Belts or the copper plated
Harvester bullets. Savage had no knowledge of such a bullet
in 2005.

Some powders do need a tight fit, i.e., IMR4227 needs a
tightly fit saboted bullet, 250gr or better, to have reliable
ignition in all types of weather/temperature. But 5744, as
well as a few other powders, will light up under just about
any circumstances.

BH 209 needs a tight fit too. I've had looser fitting Thors that wouldn't fire on a clean bore.

I assumed some smokeless powders would be the same way.

bump

BH 209 didn't work with Thor conicals in my Savage 10MLII.
The bullet wasn't tight enough to get the powder to burn properly, bloop and the bullet is 25yards down range.

A sabot round with BH209 works fine in the Savage and smokeless might have worked with a Thor but neither sabots or smokeless is legal for hunting in Co.
I reverted to 777, it works in every rifle I have and any conical or ball load I tried.