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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
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Over engineering is what this speaks of, I would take a Korth if offered a Korth or a Python for free. I would then sell the Korth to that 1% that thinks they need a gun that will never wear out, then buy a Python and bank the other money. But quite honestly any revolver you would own in Germany would never wear out at the rate you can shoot them in Germany As a point of fact, most German shooters practice a lot more than their American counterparts. Over the past five years, I imported about 300 guns from Germany. Most of them fall into two categories: unfired collectors' items or premium target guns with high round counts. For the vast majority of German gun owners, their firearms license ( Waffenbesitzkarte) is predicated on active membership in a shooting club. This licensing practice causes them to value ruggedness and durability, as witness the bargain online rates for maintenance-intensive used Colt Pythons in the range of 300-600 Euros. This kind of flawed generalization weakens your credibility. Owning/shooting handguns in Germany is not an easy thing to do. Claiming that "Most" German shooters practice more than their American counterparts is ridiculous. You may want to go to Germany and try to find a handgun, much less shoot it. Thanks, but no thanks. I'm quite content with acquiring and reporting my long-distance experience. Getting back to the subject at hand, please note that one of the difficulties involved in owning handguns in Germany is the requirement for active membership in a shooting club. -- Michael  massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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The Korth will never be a player in America, outside of the handful sold to the rich and curious, because for $4,000 an American can buy a full-house custom from one of the dozens of the world's best builders available to us. I'll take a Heirloom Precision, Bowen Classic Arms, Jim Garthwaite, and on, and on. Korth would be someplace around 100th place on that list, and even that would be charitable. I am not interested in arguing about popular tastes, let alone swaying anyone else's personal preferences. My testimony is limited to the facts of the matter. The fact that SIG P210 pistols and Korth and Manurhin MR73 revolvers use stronger materials and better surface treatments than their American counterparts is amply witnessed by objective measurements and documented service records. I have nothing but respect for Jason Burton and Hamilton Bowen, but there is no way to approach the strength, durability, and ruggedness of a SIG P210, a Korth, or a Manurhin MR73, by customizing a Colt, a S&W, or a Ruger. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
Thanks Zeleny. Like I said, my far cheaper K-38 and my far cheaper M29 shot better.
Funny story about the M28 Highway Patrolman. Mine went alot further than that w/o any need for a rebuild. Sample of one ? E
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,944
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
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Please refer to my original characterization of French and Swiss administrative markets that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms.
Once again, throughout their history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge and grind their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. This practice qualifies their having seen "ten times more duty than the average Korth". At any rate, I am willing to test Willi Korth's guarantee that his revolvers maintain the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 full-powered .357 Magnum rounds, in a friendly wager over a comparison test against a Colt Python and/or a S&W N-frame revolver. Any takers? The French and Swiss "requiring" more precision and durability to collect dust? That sounds about right. That's the point you entirely miss; while an old school Smith or Colt will shake apart and wear before 50,000 rounds (because they are minimally altered, hundred year old designs, duh), you don't grasp that they had been replaced by more durable, mass produced designs here (except the Smith) and all except the Rugers didn't go over well, because the wheelgun is static, history is its calling card and there wasn't and isn't a real need for a 50,000 round full power 357.....a 38, perhaps. (A Ruger Security Six was tested and ate an estimated 1,400,000 357 rounds without issue, since some apparently felt it necessary) There are better target rounds, defense rounds, better hunting rounds, better long range rounds than a 357; but I'm sure I'm wrong about that as well. What wars were these Korths used in, how many home defenses, police activities, how much game have you taken with them? Because apparently, snapping 50,000 times in front of a piece of paper is the only qualifications for service. I'm certain you feel the workers at Henschel had far more pride than anyone in Detroit; but that's it in a nutshell.....
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,780
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
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A Korth revolver is just about the farthest thing away in the minds of 99% plus of American handgunners ... but just mention one here and observe all the shi!t f!ts! I think jealousy will do that. 
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,944 |
No doubt; could also be Bill Gates telling Steve Jobs "yeah, but it doesn't matter....." I'm sure our friend shrapnel is mired in handgun jealousy....if he is (which I doubt), I for one say it's about time for a change!  I wonder if he's privvy that Ruger has made a more durable single action than Colt? 
Last edited by HawkI; 07/15/12.
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234 |
Can that external safety be removed?
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 927
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 927 |
You are obviously a simple minded american peasant who can't appreciate a firearm designed only for multi-millionaires or the ultra gullible for wanting to change something that is already the nadir of revolvers!
LOL!!
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545 |
Can that external safety be removed? That's the cylinder release.
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545 |
A Korth revolver is just about the farthest thing away in the minds of 99% plus of American handgunners ... but just mention one here and observe all the shi!t f!ts! I think jealousy will do that. Jealousy? Hardly. The Korth is the farthest thing away from the minds of 99% plus of American handgunners for good reason. We have a countless more options. The total number of gun owners in Germany is estimated at 2,000,000, or the same as say, Alabama. 
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,672
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 11,672 |
Not that I want one anyways, but the fact they wont let you handle them is a deal breaker. The guys at the Krieghoff stand let me put my hands all over their DG double rifles that were selling at $25,000. They actually offered them to me to mount and handle. Same with the Blaser stand. Oh well, their loss. I'm happy with what I got.
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
Please refer to my original characterization of French and Swiss administrative markets that formally required extreme precision and durability orders of magnitude greater than that expected from and built into contemporaneous U.S. police sidearms.
Once again, throughout their history Smith & Wesson and Colt never had an economic incentive to forge and grind their gun parts out of tool steel. It was far more cost effective to sinter and machine softer materials, replacing the products under warranty in the rare instances of their being put to hard use. This practice qualifies their having seen "ten times more duty than the average Korth". At any rate, I am willing to test Willi Korth's guarantee that his revolvers maintain the same accuracy even after firing 50,000 full-powered .357 Magnum rounds, in a friendly wager over a comparison test against a Colt Python and/or a S&W N-frame revolver. Any takers? The French and Swiss "requiring" more precision and durability to collect dust? That sounds about right. The SIG P210 was designed for Luger-like precision and durability that to date has exceeded a quarter million rounds in the hands of Swiss military shooters, as repeatedly attested in print and witnessed by Kessler's match pistol auction lots. Whereas Manurhin's MR73 was made for GIGN operators, who fired 150 rounds of full-power .357 Magnum ammo through their MR73 every day. Please refer to my original post for an account of its part in thwarting the Air France Flight 8969 hijacking. That's the point you entirely miss; while an old school Smith or Colt will shake apart and wear before 50,000 rounds (because they are minimally altered, hundred year old designs, duh), you don't grasp that they had been replaced by more durable, mass produced designs here (except the Smith) and all except the Rugers didn't go over well, because the wheelgun is static, history is its calling card and there wasn't and isn't a real need for a 50,000 round full power 357.....a 38, perhaps. (A Ruger Security Six was tested and ate an estimated 1,400,000 357 rounds without issue, since some apparently felt it necessary) As far as I can tell, this urban legend has its origin here: I once knew of an indoor range that had one as a rental gun and it digested, by their estimate, some 1,400,000 rounds with no parts breakages and minimal maintenance. That is the essence of a good deal! In this regard, I have long agitated for bans on wearing wife-beaters by anyone not named Guido, and propounding the " I once knew" argument by anyone not named Groucho. Contrast this free-floating anecdotage with a published testimonial of Manurhin MR73 withstanding 200,000 rounds of full-power .357 Magnum ammo. Note also that Ruger's Security Six has been discontinued in 1988 and replaced by the much heavier GP-100, just as S&W K-frame Model 19 has been discontinued in 1999 and replaced by the much heavier L-frame range. A 4" Manurhin MR73 Gendarmerie weighs 950g, and a 4" Korth Combat revolver weighs 1016g, versus a 4" S&W 686 weighing in at 1191g, and a 4" Ruger GP-100, at 1162g. In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor. There are better target rounds, defense rounds, better hunting rounds, better long range rounds than a 357; but I'm sure I'm wrong about that as well. Right or wrong, this hypothesis remains irrelevant to the matter at hand. What wars were these Korths used in, how many home defenses, police activities, how much game have you taken with them? Because apparently, snapping 50,000 times in front of a piece of paper is the only qualifications for service. As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service. I'm certain you feel the workers at Henschel had far more pride than anyone in Detroit; but that's it in a nutshell..... I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,234 |
Can that external safety be removed? That's the cylinder release. No kidding. What's the big red dot for?
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,944
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,944 |
The French and Swiss having trouble where there are no fights. Weird.
Urban legend; certainly with the million four, but "fifty thousand" rounds isn't out of line, even if "Guido" isn't in a lab coat. Prolly some "Guido's" here. I'm no French cop, but 400 rounds a week isn't out of the ordinary for me to shoot.
The 19 wasn't replaced by the 86, the 86 existed before.
"In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor."
Yes, because its a concept that has been replaced here by more specialized markets and the need for a 50,000 round full power 357 never existed, except apparently by people who shoot at clubs in Germany. If the cartridge has nothing to do with it, you sure aren't lobbying for a 50,000 round .38.
"As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service."
I agree, its refinement of a concept devoid of meaningful refinement, which is why most American gun companies quit investing upon "improving" it. Smith never did and Colt's King Cobra, Troopers, Vipers and Anacondas went the way of the dodo.
That's also why I made this comment at the outset:
"The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth"
"I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation."
Thanks for sharing your feelings....
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 13,545 |
As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service. Then why are we even having this conversation?
Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.
Robert Frost
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
The French and Swiss having trouble where there are no fights. Weird. You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder. Urban legend; certainly with the million four, but "fifty thousand" rounds isn't out of line, even if "Guido" isn't in a lab coat. Prolly some "Guido's" here. I'm no French cop, but 400 rounds a week isn't out of the ordinary for me to shoot. Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns. The 19 wasn't replaced by the 86, the 86 existed before. True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on. "In a nutshell, the French and the Germans continue to make Combat Magnum-sized revolvers, over a decade after American manufacturers have given up on their form factor."
Yes, because its a concept that has been replaced here by more specialized markets and the need for a 50,000 round full power 357 never existed, except apparently by people who shoot at clubs in Germany. If the cartridge has nothing to do with it, you sure aren't lobbying for a 50,000 round .38. As a shooter and collector, I am not lobbying for anything. "As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service."
I agree, its refinement of a concept devoid of meaningful refinement, which is why most American gun companies quit investing upon "improving" it. Smith never did and Colt's King Cobra, Troopers, Vipers and Anacondas went the way of the dodo.
That's also why I made this comment at the outset:
"The real shocker is that despite a pile of advancements, these guns, even the weakest ones, have seen ten times more duty than the average Korth" Another attempt at changing the subject from discussing objective properties of the sidearms in question. "I appreciate your certainty, but my feelings are not an issue in this conversation."
Thanks for sharing your feelings.... Please rest assured that your disdain of objectivity is not shared by the vast majority of our readers. -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
As I said at the outset, Korth Magnum revolvers were never meant for any kind of service. Then why are we even having this conversation? Could it be because most of us are interested in sport shooting? -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
Last edited by zeleny; 07/15/12.
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Posts: 21,944
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 21,944 |
You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder. Got it, one tangle requires a specialized pistol. Sounds reasonable... Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns. Yep. Multiple handguns.True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on. And my point is the platform is largely obsolescent here, because like you, most people have multiple handguns and multiple platforms. The 50,000 shot, full power 357 isn't some glaring void, its really a solution to a non-existent problem.Please rest assured that your disdain of objectivity is not shared by the vast majority of our readers. Most assuredly:: Originally Posted By: zeleny American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers. One glaring omission (we know it wasn't your feelings) is the fact that Smith and Wesson was also at the forefront of creating cartridges as well. Oddly Korth has been impressed (dare we say "fooled") enough by popularity to chamber their guns in Smith and Wesson cartridges.-- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 59 |
You seem to have missed my reference to a real life fight. Weirder. Please feel free to share your experience of facing multiple armed fanatics with GIGN. I have nothing to add to this line of inquiry. Me either. Hence my preference for well-made handguns. Right. Multiple handguns that don't wear out their bolts and hands, or stretch and flame cut their frames. Fancy that. True that. But my point remains: American manufacturers abandoned the Combat Magnum platform, but the French and the Germans carry on. Thank you for sharing. Five American shooters who took over my Korth surplus, and twice as many who came late to that party, appear to think otherwise. American shooters tend to be impressed by popularity. Smith & Wesson is the most successful revolver maker in history, and the biggest handgun maker in the world. But these ratings attest to the quality of S&W handguns in the same way, and to the same extent, as the international market proves that the Big Mac is the king of burgers. Nothing like beating world-class experts at their own game, is there? -- Michael massmeans.com | Zeleny post.harvard.edu | 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 | 323.363.1860 | http://www.subrah.comhttp://larvatus.livejournal.com | "All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better." -- Samuel Beckett
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,126
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,126 |
Nothing against those Euro wheel guns, but to me the revolver is an American innovation and all mine are made in the USA.
I have no itch for other than S&W, Colt and Ruger revolvers, preferring older ones. Some of mine are custom, all work done by American master craftsmen.
I'm with ya.. Most expensive revolver I own is a Freedom Arms M97 Premier.. IMVHO, every bit as well-made as what I'm seein' in the pix above.. Less than 1/2 the price and the quality is right up there....
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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