Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Caliber scarcity in Pre-64 Winchester Model 70

Has anybody ever put together good information on the relative scarcity of the various calibers offered in the pre-64 model 70?

It is certain that the 30-06 is by far the most common, followed by the .270. It's also certain that very few of the really rare caliber rifles (.250 Savage, .358 Win, etc) exist.

My question really is aimed at the number of less common (but not really rare) calibers, such as the .257 Roberts, .264 Win, .220 Swift, etc. Do we have reliable numbers on how many were made? If we don't have real numbers, how would you rank the calibers based on the numbers you've run across?

Rod

The "rifleman's rifle" book by Roger Rule lists numbers if you are truly interested...

Rod do you have a copy? If not I can copy the part of the rule book that lists the calibers scarcity. PM your email

PM sent. Thanks for your help!

Rod

The rarest calibers in M/70 were 9mm & 7.65 Argentine. +1 on the Rule book as listing the calibers in order of numbers produced.

They say there are more counterfeit rare cals. Then there are originals. That's why I stay away from them. Except off this one, it would be hard to counterfeit an African.

Rule lists the 300 Savage as the rarist "standard" cartridge, he also lists a total of 13,283 "specials" were made. The 9mm & 7.65 Argentina would have been part of those "specials" category. It may be difficult to say how many of these guns were chambered. There were only 362 in the 300 Savage.
Does anyone know what some other chamberings would have been in the catagory of "specials"?

Rod, did you get the PDF?

I don't know if it's called a "special" but I have seen one pre war chambered for 405 Winchester.

I have only seen one M70 in .35 Remington.

The 35 Rem is the second rarist in the Rule book. Win 458 is third.

Bob,
Curious do you remember the 405 much? Can you provide details as to how the barrel was marked and SN range? Any info is of interest. The rim on a 405 would have been problematic in the feed so I can see why so few. Was it on a standard length action our a "magnum" length action like used for the 300 & 375 H&H calibers?

There are rare "stadard" calibers and then there are special order calibers. The 405 would fit into the special order catagory.

LRF: It was awhile ago, but I remember the stock was low comb;serial number was low 5 digit and in any event "pre war".Dolls head tang, and I want to say it was a magnum action.I did not check the box but it may have been slanted.I don't recall any Super Grade markings and the stock was low comb standard grade.

The barrel was 375 or 458 profile, heavy but shorter...24"...it was the barrel and the length that caught my eye,because it did not "fit"....I remember saying to myself,looking at it from the counter into a glass case... "What's a pre war bolt handle doing on a short barreled 375 with a heavier contour?"...and the 458 came later so I knew it was not one of them..The configuration of the rifle was not like anything I knew of....

I asked the guy in charge could I see it? He opened the case, handed it to me and the markings were "405 Winchester",with the usual and ordinary proof marks and other stuff.I asked him about it,and he said they had a factory letter of authentication...the price was $17,000,and this was easily over 10 years ago.I was told there were two made,and no one seemed to know where the other one was located anymore.

Where it is today I have no idea. It was here in New England when I saw it.By that point I had seen examples in 35 Rem, 300 Savage,and at shows in Vegas the 9mm and the 7.65mm...in short, all of them that we are aware of...but never knew of the 405.I think if you dig deep inbto Rule's book you will see a footnote reference to the 405 having been made.I have not looked in a long time so this is from memory.

A mysterious rifle, indeed,and part of what makes pre 64's fun rifles.They have some history.

Perry County Firearms had two very nice 300 Savage pre 64's (believe there was a standard rifle and a carbine) a few months ago. They were both gone in a couple of days.

In order of most to least common, I believe it is:

.30-06
.270
.243
.308
.300 H&H Mag
.264 Win Mag
.22 Hornet
.220 Swift
.257 Roberts
.375 H&H Mag
.338 Win Mag
.300 Win Mag
.250-3000 Savage
.358 Win
7mm
.458 Win Mag
.35 Rem
.300 Savage

Thanks for the info on the 405, always have had a soft spot for the caliber even though there are many that are better. I will read the "Rule" for info on the 405, thanks again

According to Rule there may have been R&D M70s in 303 British,
6.5x55mm, 222 Rem and a few others.

I'e handled M70's in 25/35WCF and one marked 22/3000, and all the other markings looked right on the 22/3000.

BTW you can get the Rule book in paperback these days for < $100


worth it for the read.

a couple of years ago Mr Rule was living in Hawaii, when he graciously signed my hardback copy.

About $85 for a new paperback from Amazon last month. I picked one up just to peruse... Used hard covers were >$700...

I have heard and read that there are more fake rare caliber
rifles than real ones.

I've heard that also and I don't believe it for a second. I don't doubt that there are some fakes out there but to manufacture an entire barrel, get the correct roll marks, and make it all look real requires some sills that the person could be making more money honestly than faking rifles.

I was referring to 7MM, 7.65MM, and 9X57MM calibers mostly.

Don't get pissed, but I heard the same thing...Seems some guys were pretty damn good at faking them.....

Caveat emptor when purchasing any firearm....especially a pre 64 Model 70 in a rare caliber. Buy off a reputable dealer, or better yet know the seller personally.

Even if the seller is your best friend odds arde that he isn't the orignal buyer of the gun so th "train of evidence" is tainted.

I can tell you that there was ONE 25 Souper ( 25/308 ) Made because I had it in my hands and it had a Winchester Letter of Documentation . Somewhere in the dim , dark past I read that the 7.65 MM and 9X57 MM were produced in the low double Digits . Don't hold me to this but I think like maybe 30 or less . I have also seen and held these but cannot verify they were "real". The prices were beyond what I could afford at the time . Almost all of the original 7.65s and 9X57s , were originally shipped to Europe .How many made it back ...who knows ? Some years ago , the Winchester rolling Dies which imprint the Caliber were purchased by a private party . I've talked to some high end Dealers who told me that even the Boxes and Hang tags have been faked on some of these super rare Pre 64s . I've seen plenty of Pre 64s , but don't feel confident anymore of really telling which of the super rare ones are real , however , if I found one at a great price , I would'nt pass it up .

I'd personally be very leary about buying any "super rare" pre 64 model 70 at any price!! That's why I'll just stick to the least desireable 308's, 30-06's and 270's.....Just sayin..Make mine a fwt though

I know this is an old thread but reading through there is some misinformation listed. The rarest caliber gun combination is the pre 64 model 70 .308 in STANDARD grade. I had an opportunity to purchase one back in the 80's new in box for $5,000.00. I believe it is worth around 10 times that amount today NIB. The .308 was only cataloged in the featherweight model 70.

Thunderstruck60: Indeed that would be a VALUABLE and ultra-rare Rifle.
Tough one to quantify in rarity amongst the ultra-rares.
I would LOVE to own it!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Very, very unlikely that anyone would ever pay $50,000.00 for a NIB 308 Standard Rifle. Where did that number come from? Winchester also cataloged the 308 in the Super Grade Fwt configuration....

One of the high end dealers put that number out there. According to him there are only 3 known

Unless my memory is failing, the 308 in FW SG configuration is the rarest Super Grade Featherweight.

That 405 Winchester i saw had a factory letter with it and a price of $17,000. But this was a quite a few years ago now.

It is impossible to quantify this statement, but it very likely is true. The market has been flooded with superb fakes. We have done microscopic / forensic examination of a number of rare chamberings and have absolutely identified some fakes which, to the naked eye, are virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. We have seen counterfeit barrel stamps for the .300 Savage and 7M/M. No doubt there are others.

I would not advise anyone ever purchase a rare/valuable model 70 chambering on a rifle which does not have a documented provenance. To do otherwise is to potentially throw good money after a worthless rifle. Worse yet, you could be supporting a very active counterfeit rifle market which is targeting model 70 enthusiasts.

My 2-cents. Take it for what it is worth.

Justin

Throwing good hard cash at a fake would indeed be a very large bitter pill to swallow.

I know of a mint std in 308. $8000 firm.

Good post.

Whats a standard 243 worth?

BobinNH: I would like to know the answer to your question as well.
I have two mint condition pre-64 Model 70 Standard Rifles in caliber 243 Winchester. And as I turn 70 next year I am going to start selling down my collection "at a convenient time" instead of leaving that task to uninformed heirs.
I ignore gunbroker for the very most part as scams thereon, anymore, are 10 times more prevalent than in person or at gunshows - so I really can not answer your question directly. And my 243's have been in my collection for so long I have forgotten what I paid for them.
I have always liked the pre-64 Model 70 243's and have 11 of them total, including Targets, Varmints and Featherweights along with the Standards.
I have not seen an original, collector quality, 243 Standard Rifle at a gunshop/gunshow/gunsale in a LONG, LONG time!
Long live the Riflemans Rifles!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG: I am guessing north of a couple of grand?

The answer to your question is nowhere near the value of a standard .308 win.

Don't believe that was the question and it's unlikely anyone here will dispute the fact that a 308 Standard Rifle is worth much more than a 243 Standard Rifle.
Also, could you share the source of your information that the 308 Standard Rifle is the rarest caliber and configuration pre-64 Model 70 rifle? They're certainly not very common, but the rarest?
You really should have bought that NIB gun back in the 80's....

Don't have any real proof. Just my observation over the years. Of the super rare calibers/gun combinations it is the only one I have ever seen NIB. I would venture to say it would bring the most money at a quality gun auction. Sure I should have bought it. Along with about a hundred other guns over the years. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I have a very nice 243 std that I have turned down $2500. It's just not for sale:)

243 Standard Rifles with a metal plate command a premium....

The 308 was also offered in a cataloged special order configuration in '52, '53 and '54, a Fwt with a 24" barrel....

From what I've read Winchester would, at one time, make up just about anything by special order as long as it was safe, possible, feasible and the client was willing to pay the price. BUT, better have absolute proof before believing it's authentic!! Caveat Emptor!

LC, you live in Bend?

RDM. 20 miles north

I've been though RDM a couple hundred times. I'm north of you in T.D....

I work for a gentleman that showed me his small gun collection today, his hunting gun is a well used pre 64 model 7o carbine in .250 savage. It has a nice patina and checkering is almost flat. He got it from his Uncle many years ago....

There's a 7.65 on display at the the FN plant here in Columbia. Have gazed at it through the glass but would love to touch it.