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#6767600 - 08/12/12 Stone Glacier packs
Romo Offline
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Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 503
Loc: Louisiana
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#6767703 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Romo]
JoeH Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 46
Looks like somebody forgot to patent their gear.
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Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah.- Psalm 55:7


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#6767791 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Romo]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13799
That pack would suck balls to live out of. Any deviation from the pocket configuration and the roll top of ULA packs is a step away the ideal.

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#6767821 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Romo]
Brad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 22654
Just one more one more bad design among dozens of badly designed packs that litter the market today.

A wraparound belt that rides high in the back with no lumbar, no stays that can be shaped.

What a waste.

Too bad...
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#6768403 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Brad]
Bushcraft Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Washington
Oh, I don't know Brad...Kurt's obviously been on more than a few hardcore backpack hunts and undoubtedly knows what he does and doesn't like in a pack.

I don't know why people are jabbering about it being similar to the KUIU or Mystery Ranch suspension systems. Yeah, it shares some vague similarities to the new KUIU frame (one guess as to which reworked suspension system it was modeled after) but it's nothing at all like Mystery Ranch's NICE no-load lifter design, which, in my estimation is a non-starter. The NICE frame, with very little weight in it (35 lbs. ???) that I wore briefly last weekend, was actually very comfortable in the lower lumbar and hips but still pulled back and down on my shoulders. While comfortable, it was exceedingly obvious that it would have been a suckfest if I was really loaded down. There's no question that the Mystery Ranch pack was well constructed, but anybody that thinks their NICE frame is on par - comfortable load bearing wise, with Kifaru's Duplex, is smoking crack or talking out their ass.

Aside from shoulder pad velcro thing, Kurt's "new" pack design, to my eye, looks like there were some design features copied from the Kifaru Duplex design, albeit on a diet. Which, is a pretty damn good place to start if you are going to try to design a new pack. The velco shoulder strap thing is an interesting approach at weight loss that I'd like to see stand the test of time and elements. Also, I'd really like to know exactly how his waistbelt attaches to the frame stays. Unless he's infringing on patent or copyright law, I don't have a problem with another new entrant that is attempting to cater to the demands of the modern hardcore backpack hunting crowd. As a capitalist, I'm all for free enterprise and competition. The consumer is ultimately the winner!

Blatant imitation of Patrick Smith's duplex design aside, there's an obvious design flaw that leaps out at me. I'm always befuddled whenever I see pack designers (both old and new) use compression straps that are perpendicular to the frame - a design aspect is not particularly well thought out. The second you hoist a heavy load on your back - ESPECIALLY when you sandwich something between frame and pack the load will want to start shifting down and the horizontal compression straps don't do a damn thing to help stop the initial sag. The load shifts down and the compression straps, when viewed from the side, end up at an angle. Very simple physics really. The perpendicular compression strap thing looks cool and all in pictures when you've got a bag stuffed with a sleeping bag, but try that with a big freakin' bag of dead meat and it's bound to turn into something ugly that was largely preventable from the outset. Uglier still when you attempt the sandwich load that's seemingly all the rage these days.

So, why not just start with a compression angle that pulls the load up to where it was intended to be in the first place?

But I guess that's what you get when you get myopic and don't let me and other backpack hunters R&D your pack for a while before you go into production. grin wink

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#6768873 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Bushcraft]
JoeH Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 46
What about that looks like a Duplex to you? I own a Duplex and just don't see it. I see what looks like a Kuiu all the way. Their 'solo' pack bag is the same lay out as the icon. The meat shelf/compression between the pack bag thing smacks of Kuiu too.
I get what your saying about capitalism and all. But what those dudes are doing is down right cheap. Literally, it seems more a blatant rip off than the woobie express was to the mountain serape.

Also, not having owned one, from what I gather the MR shined with its larger pack bags. Thief load lifters were integrated high up so there was shoulder lift obtained. Still a pretty heavy bag empty.


Edited by JoeH (08/12/12)
_________________________
Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah.- Psalm 55:7


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#6768901 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: JoeH]
JoeH Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 46
Heavans to Betsy! Just noticed the price, and they don't even come with wand pockets!!!
_________________________
Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah.- Psalm 55:7


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#6768970 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: JoeH]
Big_W Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 792
Loc: Washington
Definelty looks like a Kuiu pack, I dont see any relation to a duplex frame. Not that it matters anyway. Let the product speak for it self and if it performs better than its inspiration then none of it should matter. Who knows how long this pack has been in development. We are all just sitting on computer looking at pictures. None of us have one in our hands and have used it.


Any backpack(any gear really)that comes out the K crowd will go on the defense and say it is a blatant rip off of Patrick Smiths designs. It does not matter what it is they will find something.

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#6769285 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Bushcraft]
Brad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 22654
Originally Posted By: Bushcraft
Oh, I don't know Brad...Kurt's obviously been on more than a few hardcore backpack hunts and undoubtedly knows what he does and doesn't like in a pack.


And this is his idea of a "correct" fit"... what a joke:

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#6769287 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Bushcraft]
Brad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 22654
Originally Posted By: Bushcraft
it's nothing at all like Mystery Ranch's NICE no-load lifter design, which, in my estimation is a non-starter.


I wouldn't take a NICE pack for free... other than to sell it on ebay, so for me that's not much of a comparison.

The heart and sole of a pack is it's suspension... not sure how you can compare it with Kifaru's, which have a real, adjustable suspension with lumbar pad, not a wrap-around hipbelt design (which Kuiu lifted from Arcteryx, and which SUCKS on their packs too).

The wrap-around hipbelt design was abandoned in the early 80's by most makers because they just don't work all that well. That's why the young makers returning to that design amuse me to no end.

The Kifaru is light years ahead of this pack, Kuiu, or MR.
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For Perspective, A Hobby Is Something To Pass The Time Until You Die.

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#6769289 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Big_W]
Bushcraft Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Washington
Joe,

I'm talking about the frame and overall suspension system, which is where the rubber meets the road. Pack bags are, well, bags...whose differences are largely superfluous.

Not that it matters, but I'm not sure how anyone can't see the uncanny resemblence to Kifaru's Duplex. You can toss the KUIU out since it's carbon flexy/breaky sheet is a not a stay supported platform that you can modify. At least the Storm Glacier's suspension system looks robust. Hopefully I'll be able to swing through Bozeman in a couple of weeks on my way to WY and take a closer look at them. 2.16 lbs. for the frame is very intriguing.







Load lifters on a MR NICE frame??? They're non-existent.
_________________________
It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't, everyone would do it. The hard...is what makes it great.
Reviews are only as good as the crowd reviewing them.
Progressive Liberalism is the philosophy of Western suicide.


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#6769453 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Brad]
Vigilguy Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/12/07
Posts: 402
Loc: Utah


"The wrap-around hipbelt design was abandoned in the early 80's by most makers because they just don't work all that well. That's why the young makers returning to that design amuse me to no end."


Brad, I sincerely believe that it may not work for you and your body, but my McHale SCMII has a wrap around Critical Mass hipbelt that works wonderfully well for me and a lot of others. In fact Dan uses it on all of his heavy duty CM packs because of its load carrying ability.

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#6769520 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Vigilguy]
hunting1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 3149
Loc: Albuquerque, NM, USA
The MR Nice frame was the most uncomftorble pack I have ever worn! That picture makes my shoulders hurt just remembering. Kifaru makes an awsome product, but it is cool to see any US company breaking in and even better if they are any good.
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#6769522 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Vigilguy]
Big_W Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/05/08
Posts: 792
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: Vigilguy


Brad, I sincerely believe that it may not work for you and your body, but my McHale SCMII has a wrap around Critical Mass hipbelt that works wonderfully well for me and a lot of others. In fact Dan uses it on all of his heavy duty CM packs because of its load carrying ability.



I agree, but McHale's system is very different than other full wrap belts out there. You adjust your lumbar pressure from the inside of the pack, fine tuning it for the weight of the load. It is not a belt just bolted to a frame as Brad might be referring to like the Kuiu.

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#6769536 - 08/12/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Big_W]
remington79 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/11/06
Posts: 206
Loc: North Idaho
There are no load lifters on the NICE frame if you use the Crew Cab like you have pictured. Now the 6500 does have load lifters. To compare a Duplex frame with load lifters to a NICE frame that has a pack on it with no load lifters is not a fair comparison. Compare it with one of the bags that has load lifters if you want a fair comparison.

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#6769653 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: remington79]
Bushcraft Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 472
Loc: Washington
You are right. But, again, I was referring to the frame & suspension system only. All MR had to do was build it into their NICE frame and they would have had an even better product.
_________________________
It's supposed to be hard. If it wasn't, everyone would do it. The hard...is what makes it great.
Reviews are only as good as the crowd reviewing them.
Progressive Liberalism is the philosophy of Western suicide.


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#6769796 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Bushcraft]
hunting1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/05/01
Posts: 3149
Loc: Albuquerque, NM, USA
" was referring to the frame & suspension system only. All MR had to do was build it into their NICE frame and they would have had an even better product."

I have asked Seacat or MR why the won't and the answer is always it is perfect and we are not changing.
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#6769858 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: hunting1]
JoeH Offline
Member

Registered: 06/04/12
Posts: 46
I have heard the same as far as folks asking them why they didn't design their wildy expensive frame to be tall enough for the average human. Their pack bags look kinda neat though.

Alan,
I see some similarities between the duplex and glacier, but if you look at the 2012 Kuiu frame, there are even more that scream rip off. I think it's cool if someone can make a living off of something they love. To me its just cheap the way that they essentially removed the Kuiu logo, and slapped their own on there. Where the load lifters leave the frame and go to the shoulder straps does smack of Duplex, I will give you that. As well, the U shaped cut out behind the neck.
I know that aint a whole lot new out there these days. I get it. But the Kuiu pack bag layout was/is (at least in my experience) very different. Seems it was some strange hybrid pack in the sense of how it opens. Different enough to really stand out when someone else comes along and makes theres just like it. Their load shelf or whatever they call it, while a terrible idea I agree, is done by the Kuiu boys too. Any one thing 'borrowed' here or there is nothing. But the sum of those parts....well back in ole Leanna Tennessee, we would call Bullshit.


Edited by JoeH (08/13/12)
_________________________
Lo, then would I wander far off, and remain in the wilderness. Selah.- Psalm 55:7


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#6769866 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Big_W]
Brad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 22654
Originally Posted By: Big_W
Originally Posted By: Vigilguy


Brad, I sincerely believe that it may not work for you and your body, but my McHale SCMII has a wrap around Critical Mass hipbelt that works wonderfully well for me and a lot of others. In fact Dan uses it on all of his heavy duty CM packs because of its load carrying ability.



I agree, but McHale's system is very different than other full wrap belts out there. You adjust your lumbar pressure from the inside of the pack, fine tuning it for the weight of the load. It is not a belt just bolted to a frame as Brad might be referring to like the Kuiu.


Precisely.

But I'd still not get a McHale without the lumbar pad and two-piece belt.

Would add too, McHales one piece belt doesn't have the ridiculous rise in the rear either... you know the one that Kuiu and now Stone Glacier borrowed from Arcteryx... most bloody awful, painful belt I've ever used.

I'd go with a McHale over an MR, Kuiu, or Stone Glacier pack any day...

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For Perspective, A Hobby Is Something To Pass The Time Until You Die.

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#6769970 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Brad]
strawman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 300
Loc: Zootown, MT
If you polled 100 people and let them test 10 packs from 10 different manufacturers for extended lengths of time, you'd invariable get multiple users who prefer each of the 10 different packs. It always cracks me up to read people sitting in an internet forum who describe packs as being worthless, pieces of crp, etc...when it really just boiled down to it not being comfortable to them. Meanwhile, there are probably many thousands of users wearing that pack at the exact same time in the backcountry somewhere thinking, "man, I love this pack." I'm 100% sure that there are going to be people who love this pack, as well as people who are going to hate it.

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#6770077 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: strawman]
Brad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 22654
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience with, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


Edited by Brad (08/13/12)
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For Perspective, A Hobby Is Something To Pass The Time Until You Die.

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#6770094 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: strawman]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13799
Originally Posted By: strawman
If you polled 100 people and let them test 10 packs from 10 different manufacturers for extended lengths of time, you'd invariable get multiple users who prefer each of the 10 different packs. It always cracks me up to read people sitting in an internet forum who describe packs as being worthless, pieces of cr@p, etc...when it really just boiled down to it not being comfortable to them. Meanwhile, there are probably many thousands of users wearing that pack at the exact same time in the backcountry somewhere thinking, "man, I love this pack." I'm 100% sure that there are going to be people who love this pack, as well as people who are going to hate it.


Maybe so, but the only folks I've ever heard of complaining about a Kifaru waistbelt are the same sad souls who "left their a$$ at home". By that I mean they have a flat area where a fit man has well developed glutes. No pack ever designed, carrying any real weight, will ever be comfortable for a person with such a physique.

By the way, the remedy for that is deadlifts and squats.

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#6770126 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: Brad]
strawman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/26/11
Posts: 300
Loc: Zootown, MT
Originally Posted By: Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.

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#6770150 - 08/13/12 Re: Stone Glacier packs [Re: strawman]
Brad Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 22654
Originally Posted By: strawman
Originally Posted By: Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.


You've completely missed the point... I take what most people say about internal frames with a healthy dose of skepticism, as most I know have only a bit of experience over a couple years with a couple of packs.

This isn't about steak... as you well know.

This is about thinking one thing is great, when you haven't enough experience to really know if it's great or not.

Of course a guy can luck into an awesome pack right out of the chute, and be totally correct in his proclamation of love.

More than a few photos of packs being worn on this site are living proof some really don't know the first thing about fitting or driving an internal frame.

And I'm going to take pack advice from such?

Not likely...


Edited by Brad (08/13/12)
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