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Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience with, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.

Last edited by Brad; 08/12/12.

“Perfection is Achieved Not When There Is Nothing More to Add, But When There Is Nothing Left to Take Away” Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Originally Posted by strawman
If you polled 100 people and let them test 10 packs from 10 different manufacturers for extended lengths of time, you'd invariable get multiple users who prefer each of the 10 different packs. It always cracks me up to read people sitting in an internet forum who describe packs as being worthless, pieces of cr@p, etc...when it really just boiled down to it not being comfortable to them. Meanwhile, there are probably many thousands of users wearing that pack at the exact same time in the backcountry somewhere thinking, "man, I love this pack." I'm 100% sure that there are going to be people who love this pack, as well as people who are going to hate it.


Maybe so, but the only folks I've ever heard of complaining about a Kifaru waistbelt are the same sad souls who "left their a$$ at home". By that I mean they have a flat area where a fit man has well developed glutes. No pack ever designed, carrying any real weight, will ever be comfortable for a person with such a physique.

By the way, the remedy for that is deadlifts and squats.

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Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.

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Originally Posted by strawman
Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.


You've completely missed the point... I take what most people say about internal frames with a healthy dose of skepticism, as most I know have only a bit of experience over a couple years with a couple of packs.

This isn't about steak... as you well know.

This is about thinking one thing is great, when you haven't enough experience to really know if it's great or not.

Of course a guy can luck into an awesome pack right out of the chute, and be totally correct in his proclamation of love.

More than a few photos of packs being worn on this site are living proof some really don't know the first thing about fitting or driving an internal frame.

And I'm going to take pack advice from such?

Not likely...

Last edited by Brad; 08/12/12.

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Originally Posted by Take_a_knee
Originally Posted by strawman
If you polled 100 people and let them test 10 packs from 10 different manufacturers for extended lengths of time, you'd invariable get multiple users who prefer each of the 10 different packs. It always cracks me up to read people sitting in an internet forum who describe packs as being worthless, pieces of cr@p, etc...when it really just boiled down to it not being comfortable to them. Meanwhile, there are probably many thousands of users wearing that pack at the exact same time in the backcountry somewhere thinking, "man, I love this pack." I'm 100% sure that there are going to be people who love this pack, as well as people who are going to hate it.


Maybe so, but the only folks I've ever heard of complaining about a Kifaru waistbelt are the same sad souls who "left their a$$ at home". By that I mean they have a flat area where a fit man has well developed glutes. No pack ever designed, carrying any real weight, will ever be comfortable for a person with such a physique.

By the way, the remedy for that is deadlifts and squats.


I personally love Kifaru packs. But a buddy of mine just bought one and his first thought after loading it up and taking it for a spin was, "really, I paid $600 for this?" He didn't hate it, but he didn't love it. To each his own.

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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by strawman
Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.


You've completely missed the point... I take what most people say about internal frames with a healthy dose of skepticism, as most I know have only a bit of experience over a couple years with a couple of packs.

This isn't about steak... as you well know.

This is about thinking one thing is great, when you haven't enough experience to really know if it's great or not.

As an example, an alarmingly large amount of photos of packs being worn on this site are living proof many really don't know the first thing about fitting or driving an internal frame.

And I'm going to take pack advice from such?

Not likely...


I get it Brad, and I agree with you to a degree.

I'm not calling you out by any means, I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I'm just saying, far too many people tend to think that if a pack works for them it should work for others the same, and vice versa. That's what I meant with the steak comment, just because one person likes steak (or a Mystery Ranch) doesn't mean someone else wouldn't be better off with chicken (or a Kifaru).

I don't mind reading about why or why not a person likes a pack. I just think it's funny when people say something is or isn't good (usually with much stronger language/opinions), when it's all very subjective.

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Some things aren't all that subjective when it comes to packs... there are some basic tenants of pack design, time proven, tried and not found wanting, that work for a variety of body types.

When I see gimmick-laden packs that violate one or more of those basic principles I don't tend to sit around say "golly gee" it looks like a great pack.

I predicted there would be problems with the Kuiu when it was first launched, based solely on its design... guess what?

One season later and an expensive pack with a lot of unhappy owners got redesigned.

And it's still a poor design...


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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by strawman
Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.


You've completely missed the point... I take what most people say about internal frames with a healthy dose of skepticism, as most I know have only a bit of experience over a couple years with a couple of packs.

This isn't about steak... as you well know.

This is about thinking one thing is great, when you haven't enough experience to really know if it's great or not.

Of course a guy can luck into an awesome pack right out of the chute, and be totally correct in his proclamation of love.

More than a few photos of packs being worn on this site are living proof some really don't know the first thing about fitting or driving an internal frame.

And I'm going to take pack advice from such?

Not likely...


I'm still a newb and I don't get to backpack like y'all. Brad, start a thread with some photos on the do's/dont's of packs. How to wear them correctly and such, along with some explanations of common features found that are good/bad. I hope to learn as much here as I can before I head out each time...pass it on...


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Originally Posted by Diyelker
Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by strawman
Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal, because not all opinions are formed with enough experience to, in this case, a wide variety of packs over many years.

Hamburger is great if all you ever eaten is rice and chicken... but that doesn't make it steak and no amount of wishing will change that.


That's actually a good example of what I'm talking about Brad. You're basically saying that because you prefer steak, everyone else should too. Of course, there are are plenty of people who prefer hamburger, chicken, or fish, or even vegetables. It's not always a case of "not having experience" as much as it is having different preferences or in the case of packs, different body types or needs.


You've completely missed the point... I take what most people say about internal frames with a healthy dose of skepticism, as most I know have only a bit of experience over a couple years with a couple of packs.

This isn't about steak... as you well know.

This is about thinking one thing is great, when you haven't enough experience to really know if it's great or not.

Of course a guy can luck into an awesome pack right out of the chute, and be totally correct in his proclamation of love.

More than a few photos of packs being worn on this site are living proof some really don't know the first thing about fitting or driving an internal frame.

And I'm going to take pack advice from such?

Not likely...


I'm still a newb and I don't get to backpack like y'all. Brad, start a thread with some photos on the do's/dont's of packs. How to wear them correctly and such, along with some explanations of common features found that are good/bad. I hope to learn as much here as I can before I head out each time...pass it on...


Great idea. When I get some time I will, including photos of bending stays, fit, load-lifter position, etc.

I'm in the middle of unibuilding (building a house from the ground up solo) so I don't have a lot of time right now.

Going on a 3 day pack next week in the Absaroka's and will maybe try to do the photos then... My only decision is to take the old Osprey Crescent 90 or Bora 80.

My wife and her friend both use older Bora 75's and wouldn't use anything else, including the MR she got rid of when switching to the Bora.


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JoeH,
You have a good eye to notice the similarities between my pack and Kuiu�s. Over the last two years I have worked on several design projects with two of my good friends from Kuiu, primarily dealing with the packs. I presented my pack last year to them to show possible improvements for their future production. Two of the improvements they chose to make were the shoulder strap attachment and load sling, both of which I helped with the design to work with their frame. Just friends helping friends, no rip off. I realize this pack is not for everyone due to hunting style, body type, and personal preferences. I simply decided to sell the pack I built that works well for me. I would be happy to answer any specific questions you have via email or PM.
Thanks
Kurt Racicot
Stone Glacier

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Kurt,
Right on. For a brief moment I wondered if there was a meeting of the minds between the two of you being that there are such similarities. A little too brief I guess. With that I feel I owe you a bit of an apology. Sorry I ran you up the flag pole with no due diligence.
Joe


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Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal...


Nor are body types. The rise in the back - do you have a curvy lumbar so the top of the belt would hit above your lumbar before the lower part bears?

Here's a bone-in moose hind weighing too much strapped to my dana terraframe frame. The photo was taken after a 3/4 mile 400' drop to the river (the fourth load that day), and the pack is settled in. Dana put just (barely) enough frame curve in to suit my shape well.

[Linked Image]

Looking at the subject pack frame, I don't think there's enough (any?) frame curvature sufficient for the center of the back of the waistbelt to contact my lumbar. That frame would high-center on my erectors. Maybe the frame will flex into contact.

Bushcraft is right on the compression straps. Dana angled the two on my terraframe downward about 30degrees. I'm not sure this is functionally a big deal. If the strap anchors are solid, you could really crank down on the straps and maybe they wouldn't slump too much.

Last edited by Vek; 08/13/12.
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Originally Posted by Vek
Originally Posted by Brad
Not all opinions are equal...


Nor are body types. The rise in the back - do you have a curvy lumbar so the top of the belt would hit above your lumbar before the lower part bears?

Here's a bone-in moose hind weighing too much strapped to my dana terraframe frame. The photo was taken after a 3/4 mile 400' drop to the river (the fourth load that day), and the pack is settled in. Dana put just (barely) enough frame curve in to suit my shape well.

[Linked Image]

Looking at the subject pack frame, I don't think there's enough (any?) frame curvature sufficient for the center of the back of the waistbelt to contact my lumbar. That frame would high-center on my erectors. Maybe the frame will flex into contact.

Bushcraft is right on the compression straps. Dana angled the two on my terraframe downward about 30degrees. I'm not sure this is functionally a big deal. If the strap anchors are solid, you could really crank down on the straps and maybe they wouldn't slump too much.


Vek, my back is quite curvy, especially in the lumbar. That's one reason I quit externals in 1978 and never looked back.

The only one I had in recent years that mostly fit was the DD Loadmaster frame which is in your pictures. Most comfortable external frame pack I've ever used.

Of course, this conversation is mostly about internals, though I'd call the Kuiu and Stone more external than internal.


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Originally Posted by Bushcraft

Load lifters on a MR NICE frame??? They're non-existent.
[Linked Image]



That's because the NICE was designed to meet a military contract to make packbags that would work with existing surplus ALICE frames... in other words it started life as a bigtime compromise (as anyone that's used an ALICE knows).

They eventually brought out the extension for it to "correct" the problem of lifter positioning. Whatever.

As you point out, at least the Stone Glacier has them where they should be... however, it looks like a high-tech trapper nelson with apparently no shape to the frame, other than what the compression of the hipbelt and shoulder straps provide.


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Good luck and best wishes to you Kurt!


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Thanks for chiming in Kurt.

I knew you had a relationship with the KUIU guys. That said, I still say it bears some resemblence to a Duplex layout. grin

Can you substitute the straightish carbon stays with some aluminum stock?

Allen


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Brad,
You are correct, there is no contour to the frame. There are four carbon composite stays in the frame, two in an X pattern, two vertical on the outside. While it would be nice offer formable stays, under very heavy loads the various aluminum stays I initially tested failed. In order to support loads over 100 I found the aluminum stays to become too heavy and thick to effectively form, along with the increase weight to the entire pack. Knowing my body style and what works for me, I chose to keep the weight down and keep the structural integrity to perform under very heavy loads.
The lumbar support in most hipbelts does not work for my body type, it causes lower back fatigue and chaffing. Of course the degree of discomfort depends on the size and density of the lower lumbar support. This is the reason I went with the thicker nitrogen foam to allow enough compression to form to my lower lumbar, hence taking the place of the lower lumbar on my body type. I think of pack fit as personal and individual as a pair of boots, some need more arch support, very similar to the concept of lower lumbar support. This is not a pack for everyone; I designed it with a specific purpose of minimal weight that will pack a boned sheep and all of my gear comfortably on the multi-day pack out. If I can keep my overall weight down to a point I only need to make one trip out, I have effectively doubled the distance I can hunt in comparison to having to make two trips out. I would prefer to have several pockets, formable stays, and many other accessories, but to maintain the overall goal of function there were certain sacrifices I had to make in the design. Perhaps in the future someone will come up with the ultalight pack that will have it all so we don�t have to sacrifice these accessories in the name of weight�I hope they do because I will buy one.
You bring up two very good points on formable stays and lumbar support. As the stays are removable from the fabric frame, it would be feasible to offer formable stays at a decreased load rating for those who may not be hauling that heavy of a load. Likewise, it would be feasible to offer a lumbar support accessory that could be added to the belt for those who prefer it. Thanks for the insight.
If I remember correctly from previous posts you have made over the years, we are both in the Bozeman area. You are more than welcome to take a pack out for a weekend and give your thoughts/suggestions on these topics. However, it sounds you are very in tune with what works for you, so if you would rather not, I understand.
Thanks for the discussion points.
Kurt Racicot
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Kurt, yours is the first pack of its ilk that has caught my eye. But I'm not willing to bite on one with straight stays.

Here's an idea: solicit a side-view stay photo from an informed user group and a bit of hunting resume' info (to weed out the eberle and badlands users). The photo should show a stay lying alongside a yardstick or tape measure, with top of stay at top of photo. You could pretty easily scale dimensions off the photo, spreadsheet them, and generate an average. Then, make an aluminum prototype stay and find a Bozeman local with close to the average shape to check fit. If the fit is right and you can make it work, then offer the pack with two stay options: wavy and not-so-wavy.

All that said, it sure is easy to make suggestions from behind a keyboard...


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If I am understaning it right the two stays that are vertical should be outside your back on the sides. The two crossed stays are directly behind your back. If there is enough of a space between your back, the crossed stays, and the outside stays it should create a pocket for your back that the torso and lumbar pads should buffer. That would eliminate the need to account for a back profile, kinda like an external. But I am talking out my azz as I have not seen it and the pictures do not tell enough of the story for me.

EDIT: I just seen a different picture and looks like my theory might be wrong. Looks pretty flat all the way up the frame. Send out a tester to me and I could tell everyone what the deal is. grin

Kurt, I would like to se some more pictures and how the frame is setup with dimentions included. I actually have some interest in this pack as it looks a lot better than the KUIU design. The packs weight and load rating is also impressive and I like the choice of fabrics. BTW, the Kuiu frame actually fits me pretty good, although that was just trying it on not going for a 10 mile hike or anything.

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I wonder how many internal frame users have ever had the stays out of their packs?

Hiked with a guy this weekend who has some very serious loads in steep terrain under his belt and has never had the stays out of his pack. They looked like they were shaped pretty well -- for a guy 6" shorter than him. As it is, they create uncomfortable hot spots at the point that they cut back in towards his back when they still should be going outwards. Knowing that his stays are too thick of a guage to be shaped without a bench vise, I took the lesser path and didn't offer to fix them for him. Maybe next trip. In a pinch you can use a couple of boulders that are really close together to get those stays shaped.

I really believe the right thing for a direct to internet company to do is ship an internal with the stays out and completely flat along with instructions for how to properly bend stays. That's the only way that an internal is going to work correctly. Fit is too individual.

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