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Originally Posted by Brad
John, one thing's for sure, you were the ugly kid that couldn't get laid in HS and has made a career out of that frustration.


Well that seems kinda mean. frown frown



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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Brad
John, one thing's for sure, you were the ugly kid that couldn't get laid in HS and has made a career out of that frustration.


Well that seems kinda mean. frown frown



Yup.


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But the story you describe is probably based on the Herrero et al. study.


Herrero is one of the co-authors of the report that is cited. The author of the article makes a good point. That is, it's kind of silly to argue about bear spray vs. firearms (I suspect he reads the campfire), when there's no rule that says you can't carry both, and I do when I'm in griz country.

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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by DocRocket

I carry bear spray in bear country, but I also carry firearm(s) whenever feasible.


The POINT TO REMEMBER about THIS THREAD is IT'S ABOUT SUMMER-[bleep]-TIME BAKCPACKING... not horsey packing, not dayhiking. It's about an already BURDENED person adding what many of us consider UNNECESSARY additional SUMMERTIME weight when one's trying to pare away ounces everywhere.
...your opinion like your azzhole, but not all opinions are created equal.


Well, Sunshine, I have to bust yer bubble here a bit...

I've done a LOT of alpine miles on shanks pony. Most of them in "summer-[bleep]-time", as you put it, because where I grew up and lived the larger part of my adult life, "summer-[bleep]-time" was all we had. As in June through October, and outside of that you were on skis or snowshoes.

My first bear kill was in August, at point-blank range with a .303 sporter I'd borrowed from my cousin and never expected to see use of until the black bear boiled out of my friend's corn patch at me with blood in his eye. My second defensive use of firearms on a bear was in August across the Freeman River in Alberta's Swan Hills. That bear (which was probably a black, but might have been a sub-adult griz, truth to tell) lived to tell his buddies about it, but it took two 12 gauge slugs in the dirt between his paws at bad-breath distance to change his mind about me being his next Happy Meal.

My only use of pepper spray on a bear was on a mama griz in July at bad-breath distance in Kananaskis with two or perhaps three bawling cubs orbiting around us in tight cover near a trout stream while me and mama both schitt our pants.

Of my 30+ close encounters with aggressive bears, all but one have occurred between July 4 and Labor Day.

So let's not dismiss "summer-[bleep]-time" as a time to not be concerned about bear attacks, Sunshine. Bears have one job from the time they wake up in the spring til the time they go to sleep in the fall: eating. And if you look tasty to a bear, then you're a problem. Moreover, if you look to a bear like you're threatening his food cache, berry patch, or just his general grumpy territory, then you're a problem.

Stephen Herrero's first book, Bear Attacks, opened a whole lot of people's eyes to the ethology of bears, and to the reality that death by bear-ingestion, while rare, is not easily pigeon-holed. If you want to avoid being a bear casualty, you have to learn about bears.

I've spent years and years in bear country, learning about bears. Like BCBrian, I consider my outdoors experience to have been incredibly enriched by being in bear country. But my experience of bears has taught me that there are no absolutes. You can't dismiss black bears as harmless (they kill waaaaay more people than griz, and they eat us, too). You can't say griz are harmless at some time and harmful at others. There's no easy solutions.

I have never been mugged, but I carry a handgun every day and train with my handguns in preparation for such a possibility. I have never had my car catch fire, but I keep a fire extinguisher in each of my vehicles in anticipation of such an eventuality.

I have never been mauled by a bear, but I've been closer to being mauled and/or hunted and eaten by a bear than I have to being mugged or burning my car up. And when I go into bear country, whether it's "summer-[bleep]-time" on the Appalachian Trail, or the height of elk season in the high country along the Great Divide, I carry everything I'm authorized to carry to deal with bruin and I make no apologies for doing so.

That usually means a medium-bore rifle or short-barrel 12-gauge long arm with a .45 caliber revolver on my hip, and a couple of cans of pepper spray on my other hip. And my kids will each have a can of bear spray, and one or more of them will have a revolver or a shotgun.

You want to trust your life to bear spray? Be my guest. It's better than nothing, I'll give you that. But bear spray, a slug gun, and a .45 Colt gives you mo-bettah options.


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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Brad
John, one thing's for sure, you were the ugly kid that couldn't get laid in HS and has made a career out of that frustration.


Well that seems kinda mean. frown frown



Yup.


Damn Brad,

Here we were just talking about hot sauce and pistolas and you go and get all mean and stuff.

It wasn�t like I said you were hiding behind the skirts of your 50 yr old good lady friend (you know the one that shoots better than you) when the boogey man showed up or anything of that sort.

Why you gotta get all mean and schit.

Side note here is another of those pistol bullet proof bears that scare you so much.

7.5 inches of pure manhood baby.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by JohnBurns; 09/19/12.

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Originally Posted by McInnis
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But the story you describe is probably based on the Herrero et al. study.


Herrero is one of the co-authors of the report that is cited. The author of the article makes a good point. That is, it's kind of silly to argue about bear spray vs. firearms (I suspect he reads the campfire), when there's no rule that says you can't carry both, and I do when I'm in griz country.


Well, then. We have a meeting of minds. Let's move on. There's way too much dumbphuckitude on this here thread, which I studiously avoided until today, and which I will scrupulously avoid hereafter.

Can't believe how many bear/cougar/jabberwockie attack experts there are here on the 24HCF.


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Originally Posted by DaddyRat
Never met Montana Marine, but have never known him to be arrogant or give bad advice.


Ditto

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Originally Posted by ingwe
Yep Doc...that was good...

Now just don't go arrogant on us because you are " The Most Interesting Man in the World"....

Stay thirsty my freind.... grin


He do have a way with words, don't he?

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Well, since you seem to love Dr. Hererro, you might wan to actually read him (he was one of those I was referencing earilier):

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions on the basis of his own research, which suggests that a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly bear doubles when bullets are fired rather than when bear spray is used."

That's about as kindly as I can put it...


http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3018/pdf/FS09-3018.pdf

http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...0d338b6-7638-11e1-b809-0019bb2963f4.html


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns

Side note here is another of those pistol bullet proof bears that scare you so much.


John, quite the opposite... you seem to be scared of bears since you kill so many puny ones. Me, I respect them but don't fear them in the least. Obviously, since I'm the "idiot" that just carries spray...


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Originally Posted by Brad
Well, since you seem to love Dr. Hererro, you might wan to actually read him (he was one of those I was referencing earilier):

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions on the basis of his own research, which suggests that a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly bear doubles when bullets are fired rather than when bear spray is used."

That's about as kindly as I can put it...


http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3018/pdf/FS09-3018.pdf

http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...0d338b6-7638-11e1-b809-0019bb2963f4.html


Thinking along those lines it is hard to believe that someone has not came out with skunk spray.

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Originally Posted by Brad
Well, since you seem to love Dr. Hererro, you might wan to actually read him (he was one of those I was referencing earilier):

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions on the basis of his own research, which suggests that a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly bear doubles when bullets are fired rather than when bear spray is used."

That's about as kindly as I can put it...

http://missoulian.com/news/state-an...0d338b6-7638-11e1-b809-0019bb2963f4.html




http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/2009/3018/pdf/FS09-3018.pdf

I must have missed the part in the OP where he gave the slightest schit about grizzly bears.

Hows that reading thing working for you, Brad?????

Ever heard of the the AT????

Ever heard of 2 legged predators?????

Love and kisses

Your pal John

Last edited by JohnBurns; 09/19/12.

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Originally Posted by Brad
Well, since you seem to love Dr. Hererro, you might wan to actually read him (he was one of those I was referencing earilier):

That's about as kindly as I can put it...



Jayzus, Sunshine... get over yer hurt feelers and move on...

I studied under Herrero. Trust me, of any of the emotions one can have for a perfesser, "love" ain't one I EVER felt for him. But I do respect him, and I've read just about everything he's written on bear ethology, so don't try to take me to school.

You've got a reference to a peer-reviewed credible paper that supports your "overwhelming evidence" assertion about the superiority of bear spray over firearms, I'd love to read it. Herrero's opinions, such as the one you quoted in your post, do NOT trump the work that Herrero and his co-researchers, and others, have put out in the literature that DO NOT support a significant superiority of bear spray over firearms. (6% might be "statistically significant", but in my book as an outdoorsman that don't cut the mustard...)

As for putting it kindly, put it in a pipe and smoke it.

Last edited by DocRocket; 09/19/12.

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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by Brad
Well, since you seem to love Dr. Hererro, you might wan to actually read him (he was one of those I was referencing earilier):

That's about as kindly as I can put it...



Jayzus, Sunshine... get over yer hurt feelers and move on...

I studied under Herrero. Trust me, of any of the emotions one can have for a perfesser, "love" ain't one I EVER felt for him. But I do respect him, and I've read just about everything he's written on bear ethology, so don't try to take me to school.

As for putting it kindly, put it in a pipe and smoke it.


In Other words, you don't agree with your Hero Herrero?

"a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly bear doubles when bullets are fired rather than when bear spray is used."


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<SIGH>

Cite a study, Sunshine.

Not a [bleep]' opinion, like the one from Herrero you dredged up. He ain't MY hero, although I'm beginning to suspect he might be yours...

YOU stated that the EVIDENCE was overwhelmingly positive in favor of pepper spray over the use of firearms. The literature doesn't support your assertion, Sunshine. I cited (loosely, I gotta admit) the ONLY peer-reviewed study on this comparison published to date, and it doesn't prove much...

Whatever. I'm outta here. I can't [bleep]' educate people who don't wanna be educated. NOT that I'm in a position to educate, as I'm no [bleep]' ex-spurt on this subject, but at least I believe I've pointed out that YOU are even less of one. C�st la vie.

I got loads to load, and hunting season is ripening. I got better things to do than argue with yer dumb ass on this non-issue. Do what you want, and say what you want. I don't give a rat's ass about it.

Last edited by DocRocket; 09/19/12. Reason: added some French

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I'm beginning to think your name ain't sunshine... or Doc anything...

"When it comes to self defense against grizzly bears, the answer is not as obvious as it may seem. In fact, experienced hunters are surprised to find that despite the use of firearms against a charging bear, they were attacked and badly hurt. Evidence of human-bear encounters even suggests that shooting a bear can escalate the seriousness of an attack, while encounters where firearms are not used are less likely to result in injury or death of the human or the bear."

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf


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Evidence, Sunshine... evidence...

Ciao...


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You have no evidence despite your demand for same, but your hero whom you cite, Doc Herrero, has done quite a bit of investigation as has the US FWS:

The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality -- based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries.

You're a "doc" of what?

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."


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Originally Posted by Brad
You have no evidence despite your demand for same, but your hero whom you cite, Doc Herrero, has done quite a bit of investigation as has the US FWS:

The question is not one of marksmanship or clear thinking in the face of a growling bear, for even a skilled marksman with steady nerves may have a slim chance of deterring a bear attack with a gun. Law enforcement agents for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service have experience that supports this reality -- based on their investigations of human-bear encounters since 1992, persons encountering grizzlies and defending themselves with firearms suffer injury about 50% of the time. During the same period, persons defending themselves with pepper spray escaped injury most of the time, and those that were injured experienced shorter duration attacks and less severe injuries.

You're a "doc" of what?

"Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person�s chance of incurring serious injury from a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."


Bustin Bears with a pistol is not a big thing for grownups, Brad.

Stopping a brutal assault from a 2 legged predator with hot sauce is very problematic but hey you got a 50yr old female good friend to hide behind so Dude keep the faith.

Don�t let these silly bastards grind you down, you got things, heck you won this thread. (eat Granola, it will keep you safe)

Last edited by JohnBurns; 09/19/12.

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It would be intersting to see hard number statistics on bear defense. Most of this is percentages, "most of the times" and vague generalities. That kind of vague information suspect as usually is linked to an agenda.

Here's a fairly hard factual list of fatal bear attacks in NA, broken down by date, place, species, and a short description. Unfortunately not much info about defense attempted.

The mapper does show the AT region getting it's share of action.

No shortage of summertime attacks either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America


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