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Originally Posted by JohnBurns

Bustin Bears with a pistol is not a big thing for grownups, Brad.


Especially if they're runt sized cubs.


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Originally Posted by Brad
Originally Posted by JohnBurns

Bustin Bears with a pistol is not a big thing for grownups, Brad.


Especially if they're runAXt sized cubs.


Here is a tip for photos of midget bears killed with the pistola.

Use a slow shutter speed and move the bears head and it will not appear as small as it really is.

That smart azz Tanner will dog you on photo quality but you will skate on runt factor. laugh laugh



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laugh

I've been looking at this thread and that pic is still awesome JB! laugh

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Originally Posted by Tanner
laugh

I've been looking at this thread and that pic is still awesome JB! laugh


Ha Ha SmartAzz.

I packed that lil one out inside an Oprey Internal whole. That picture grossy exaggerates the size of that bear and it does look small in the picture. It ate good. laugh laugh


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Great to see you posting again JB!


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I was gonna' ask if you packed it out in one of those baby-carrier slings... laugh

Just kiddin'!

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Originally Posted by Tanner
I was gonna' ask if you packed it out in one of those baby-carrier slings... laugh

Just kiddin'!


Dude,

You have no idea how close you are with that.

Again it ate good and a kid at your age should show more respect for your elders. laugh laugh


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My bad, sir laugh

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I still say Glock 22.

Lay some suppressive fire on the gap-toothed "squeal like a pig!" hillbillies, AND still have ammo left to pick off the charging bears one by one.

This stuff is just not that hard, people.


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Funny how the thread has turned into a pissing match about handguns vs spray for grizzlies when the original post was about handguns for defense from humans on the AT. The funniest part is the guy screaming the loudest about spray and grizzlies is also the guy yelling at everyone to stay on topic.

Anyway, the biggest threat around these parts (TN) is meth cookers, pot growers, and the meth heads looking for $ for their next score. It may not have been that way when Brad hiked the AT at 16, but it is today. I carry everywhere it's legal and there's no reason not to when hiking. Like most of us, I hope to God to never have to use my gun in self defense, but I want the option if the need ever does arise.

There a ton of good self defense options these days that don't weigh much more than a can of spray. My personal choice for minimum carry is an alloy framed Smith 642 that's under a pound and maybe 20 ounces loaded. If buying new now, I'd look hard at the S&W Shield in 9mm. Either are lightweight, effective, and good insurance. If a man's burdened too greatly by a 1.5 pound insurance policy, they've got bigger issues.

Heck, you might even come across a good opportunity to hone your skills with your carry gun if you have it with you all the time out on the trail.
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I can only imagine what Phil Shoemaker thinks of this thread.

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You're going to cause him a stroke posting a pic of a coyote in a hiking thread.

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I'll admit it wasn't a backpacking trip, but I was hiking... grin

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Originally Posted by jds44
Funny how the thread has turned into a pissing match about handguns vs spray for grizzlies when the original post was about handguns for defense from humans on the AT. The funniest part is the guy screaming the loudest about spray and grizzlies is also the guy yelling at everyone to stay on topic.

Anyway, the biggest threat around these parts (TN) is meth cookers, pot growers, and the meth heads looking for $ for their next score. It may not have been that way when Brad hiked the AT at 16, but it is today. I carry everywhere it's legal and there's no reason not to when hiking. Like most of us, I hope to God to never have to use my gun in self defense, but I want the option if the need ever does arise.


I ran into an �alleged� meth head 2 week ago.

Watched him hit a deer on the road with his Corvette.

Watched him beat up his girlfriend and throw her in the ditch.

When I got her in my truck she had a cigarette burn under her eye where he �allegedly� held his cigarette to teach her a lesson earlier.

He returned to the scene moments after the Deputy arrived ( 20 min response time) and I got to see a high speed chase.

Deputy took him into custody at gun point. Funny cause he had both a Taser and Hot Sauce but for some reason chose the �less effective pistol�.

A can of hot sauce would not have made me feel very comfortable waiting on the Calvary but the M&P on my belt helped a little. The 16 inch carbine helped even more. wink






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Originally Posted by George_De_Vries_3rd

Brad, from what I've seen you post, I would say you are a very knowledgeable hiker and backpacker including the things associated with those activities such as clothes and equipment. I would also guess by your pictures you can combine those skills with elk hunting and do it successively.

IMO, that's where you are at your best here. No need for the animos where there is a disagreement. smile



Best post in the last dozen pages in this thread.


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Sooooooo What is the proper caliber to defend against hopped up meth head under sized grizzly/black bears on two legs when hiking the AT in Montana,Wyoming and Canada only in the summer and in town of course. whistle


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Originally Posted by 7mmMato
Sooooooo What is the proper caliber to defend against hopped up meth head under sized grizzly/black bears on two legs when hiking the AT in Montana,Wyoming and Canada only in the summer and in town of course. whistle


Clearly, you need one of these...

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/6883276/XP_100_338AX#Post6883276















grin


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Originally Posted by Brad
You have no evidence despite your demand for same, but your hero whom you cite, Doc Herrero, has done quite a bit of investigation as has the US FWS...


Quoting an author's opinion is a lot different from citing evidence published in a paper.

For example, people often repeat the "98%" effectiveness of pepper spray, yet the paper from which that figure was taken, (Smith, et al., 2006) says the following:

"Our research shows that bear deterrent spray is an effective tool for defusing bear�human conflict in a nonlethal manner... bear spray was [b]92% effective by our definition of success... [while] 98% of persons carrying it were
uninjured after a close encounter with bears."[/b]

But, in the same paper the authors state that "In 18% of cases we analyzed (13 of 72), both brown and black bears resumed their threatening behavior after having been sprayed the first time."

Which begs the question, how did they define "success" in the use of bear spray? If we subtract 18% from 92%, we see that only 74% of bears sprayed are fully deterred from their aggressive behavior. This is a far cry from the 92% effectiveness claim touted by the spray proponents on the internet! The authors admit that bears might need to be sprayed multiple times in order for the person(s) involved to escape. They also admit that subsequent sprayings are often less effective than the initial use in most cases. And in fact, bear spray residue on clothing and equipment may attract bears and actually trigger bear aggression.

Yet the same authors in the same paper denigrate firearms use because attacking bears need to be shot an average of 4 times before they are killed. Hmmm... so they say that firearms are not good, because they often require repeated applications, but spray is good, even though it often requires repeated applications. Having been trained in reading academic papers critically, this strikes me as bias.

Another set of studies by Smith, Herrero, and others, was touted in Missoula this past winter. This was widely publicized and has been repeated on a number of bear attack websites. Stephen Herrero spoke at this conference, and reported on two studies that seemed to show spray was a "better" response to bear aggression than firearms. One study looked at firearms, the other study looked at spray. The two studies were not related, and methodology was quite different, so it's apples to oranges, and the conclusions you can draw from comparing the studies are not very solid.

Nonetheless, a bunch of bear attack websites and a ton of academics have seized upon this as "proof" that spray is "better" than firearms. What they fail to do is apply the caveats that the researchers explicitly stated in their talks:

"The caveats: The firearms study was much more extensive, with 269 incidents involving 444 hunters. The spray study had 72 incidents with 175 people, and included a mix of less-dangerous encounters and full-on attacks. So the two studies aren�t directly linked."

In another study published in 2011 which was discussed on the 24HCF, Smith et al. noted that people who used firearms in bear defense appeared to have been much closer to the bear when the attack started than people in the pepper spray studies, and the level of bear aggression faced by firearms users appeared to be much greater than that of spray users. Spray users hit the bears when the bruins were posturing, standing on hind feet, walking toward the people, and so forth, whereas firearms users were more often dealing with a bear that was charging or in actual contact with the person(s). Spray users were being actively mauled by the bear significantly less often than firearms users. (I'm still looking for that paper in my office, which I printed out at the time.)

Gary Shelton's studies have also shown that spray can be highly effective when bears are not in actual contact with the person(s) in question, but when the bear is physically mauling you, its effectiveness is much less certain. I refer you to his series of books, Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth, Bear Attacks II, and Bear Encounter Survival Guide.

All of the authors I have studied, including Shelton, Herrero, Smith, and others, share the same thesis: knowledge of bear behavior and modification of human behavior accordingly is the most important factor in avoiding injury in a bear encounter. Because my outdoor interests put me square in the middle of dense bear populations from the early 1970's until the late 1990's, I learned everything I could from these people to improved my chances of survival. As I stated previously, I had 3 bear encounters that required use of firearm or spray (and since on the first one I was actually bear hunting, I'm not sure that qualifies), and I have never been touched, bitten, or otherwise harmed by a bear in close to 3 dozen close bear encounters.

Shelton is a strong proponent of carrying and using (and knowing how to use!) bear spray, as are Herrero, Smith, and others. I am also a strong proponent of bear spray.

However, Shelton has become stronger in his advocacy of firearms for high-risk persons (B.C. forestry workers, etc.) because his work has shown that as bear populations increase in concert with increased human activity in bear country, the probability of highly aggressive bear attacks increases, and his studies show that highly aggressive bears are probably less likely to be effectively stopped with spray. He cites numerous examples in his books of bears that were initially turned by spray, but then came back for another go-round. Such bears are rarely controlled with anything less than a lethal dose of high-velocity lead.

The bottom line is this: despite the conclusions of many "experts" who say that there is overwhelming evidence of the superiority of spray over firearms, I haven't seen that evidence yet in my reading of the literature. If you read the papers that have been published critically, you find that there is no direct head-to-head study that conclusively proves this. The apples-to-oranges rule violation is seen again and again.

So I say again, and truly mean this: if you can cite a paper that truly shows this superiority of spray over firearms, I'd love to read it. But I haven't seen that study yet, and there are a lot of bear biologists out there who share my skepticism.

"Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Region 4 bear manager Mike Madel [who attended the Missoula conference and was quoted in the news article] said the results are pretty convincing.

Madel said, 'Still, I know a lot of bear managers who would like to rely on their firearm.'"

In other words, there are a lot of people with far more experience and expertise than you or me who continue to carry their firearms in bear country, even though they may also carry bear spray.











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Good post. I realize we are far off the original topic though. The OP wanted to know what handgun to carry while backpacking on the AT, primarily to deal with bad guys and secondarily with problem animals. There are plenty of lightweight revolvers and auto pistols that will satisfy his needs.

Bear deterrence is obviously not a simple thing because circumstances vary widely and the behavior of individual animals varies too. It's easy to cite a few sentences or statistics as being gospel but the reality is much more complex. I don't hike in grizzly country that often (although I did last month) but I think it's really a tradeoff between how much weight you are willing to carry and how much perceived security the defensive items you carry provide based on your skills and knowledge. Different people will come up with different answers to this problem.

I would agree that if Phil Shoemaker has read this thread he's probably shaking his head.

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Let me say that I've been to AK the Bob, and other places where grizzlys, black bear and cougars-no, not that kind-tend to roam; I've been where we've seen brownies every day, some as close as a 100 yds and in, just doing their thing. They scented us, "stood," and knew we were there but there was plenty of room and no cubs around (that we knew of),so they were fine, and this was open, tundra country. The biggest trees up there are alders with trunks about the size of a slender, feminine wrist, and those only down in the creek bottoms. Let me add here that the biggest hole you can get at the end of a steel barrel at those times makes you feel a whole lot better about the whole matter than a can of pressurized, "cajun" spice. Not that there is anything wrong with that. grin

In other words, the country made you feel like you just walked into your senior class prom without any clothes on. I carried a 340 B even though they were "just caribou and black bear hunt," so, I felt OK even though our guide chose to keep bacon, pancake mix, eggs and such things in his tent...right next to ours. This made me deep breathe and talk to myself a couple of times.

While I'm am expert in pitiful few things, I know that in country where you are isolated from immediate help from others, I'll carry a firearm that is probably bigger than PC world views would dictate--I am very poor at PC world views by the way. Just chalk it up to my insecurity in general.

But,[/i]this [i]is about the AT; Ok, I'm still going to pack something. I'm much less knowledgeable than Brad at backpacking or hiking and I know only too well about extra weight from staggering about the mountains chasing elk, but I can do it even though the cogniscenti may scoff at me.. After boring you with the previous drivel, I'll leave it with this--I'd be packing a J-frame S&W .357 with 158-gr SWC's 38s and feel pretty groovy about it. And there, as usual, are a host of other shorties that would probably work and be just as good.

So, if the OP ever chimes back in, he can tell us what worked for him.

Actually, this goes right to the point that our world, our country, is not as safe as it once was in my now spent youth. There are now many predators out there many of which walk upright. That would be my biggest concern on the AT though I've never traveled it.

If I thought it would work out, I'd try to not be as paranoid. grin

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