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s&w 329PD with 240 gr xtp's moving at 1250 FPS. carry it in a Diamond D chest holster with 6 extras in the loop and a speed loader in your pocket. that said, might be kind of interesting to use a chest holster and a backpack at the same time. would require some fitting for sure.


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I have a S&W 329 Night Guard, you don't even know its on your belt.






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Glock 19 or Glock 20 in a Hill People Gear Kit Bag. For the AT I would consider my S&W 360 Scandium Kit Gun. I sold a 7-shot Scandium 386 like a moron. That was just about the perfect bush gun.

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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by Brad
You have no evidence despite your demand for same, but your hero whom you cite, Doc Herrero, has done quite a bit of investigation as has the US FWS...


Quoting an author's opinion is a lot different from citing evidence published in a paper.

For example, people often repeat the "98%" effectiveness of pepper spray, yet the paper from which that figure was taken, (Smith, et al., 2006) says the following:

"Our research shows that bear deterrent spray is an effective tool for defusing bear�human conflict in a nonlethal manner... bear spray was [b]92% effective by our definition of success... [while] 98% of persons carrying it were
uninjured after a close encounter with bears."[/b]

But, in the same paper the authors state that "In 18% of cases we analyzed (13 of 72), both brown and black bears resumed their threatening behavior after having been sprayed the first time."

Which begs the question, how did they define "success" in the use of bear spray? If we subtract 18% from 92%, we see that only 74% of bears sprayed are fully deterred from their aggressive behavior. This is a far cry from the 92% effectiveness claim touted by the spray proponents on the internet! The authors admit that bears might need to be sprayed multiple times in order for the person(s) involved to escape. They also admit that subsequent sprayings are often less effective than the initial use in most cases. And in fact, bear spray residue on clothing and equipment may attract bears and actually trigger bear aggression.

Yet the same authors in the same paper denigrate firearms use because attacking bears need to be shot an average of 4 times before they are killed. Hmmm... so they say that firearms are not good, because they often require repeated applications, but spray is good, even though it often requires repeated applications. Having been trained in reading academic papers critically, this strikes me as bias.

Another set of studies by Smith, Herrero, and others, was touted in Missoula this past winter. This was widely publicized and has been repeated on a number of bear attack websites. Stephen Herrero spoke at this conference, and reported on two studies that seemed to show spray was a "better" response to bear aggression than firearms. One study looked at firearms, the other study looked at spray. The two studies were not related, and methodology was quite different, so it's apples to oranges, and the conclusions you can draw from comparing the studies are not very solid.

Nonetheless, a bunch of bear attack websites and a ton of academics have seized upon this as "proof" that spray is "better" than firearms. What they fail to do is apply the caveats that the researchers explicitly stated in their talks:

"The caveats: The firearms study was much more extensive, with 269 incidents involving 444 hunters. The spray study had 72 incidents with 175 people, and included a mix of less-dangerous encounters and full-on attacks. So the two studies aren�t directly linked."

In another study published in 2011 which was discussed on the 24HCF, Smith et al. noted that people who used firearms in bear defense appeared to have been much closer to the bear when the attack started than people in the pepper spray studies, and the level of bear aggression faced by firearms users appeared to be much greater than that of spray users. Spray users hit the bears when the bruins were posturing, standing on hind feet, walking toward the people, and so forth, whereas firearms users were more often dealing with a bear that was charging or in actual contact with the person(s). Spray users were being actively mauled by the bear significantly less often than firearms users. (I'm still looking for that paper in my office, which I printed out at the time.)

Gary Shelton's studies have also shown that spray can be highly effective when bears are not in actual contact with the person(s) in question, but when the bear is physically mauling you, its effectiveness is much less certain. I refer you to his series of books, Bear Attacks: The Deadly Truth, Bear Attacks II, and Bear Encounter Survival Guide.

All of the authors I have studied, including Shelton, Herrero, Smith, and others, share the same thesis: knowledge of bear behavior and modification of human behavior accordingly is the most important factor in avoiding injury in a bear encounter. Because my outdoor interests put me square in the middle of dense bear populations from the early 1970's until the late 1990's, I learned everything I could from these people to improved my chances of survival. As I stated previously, I had 3 bear encounters that required use of firearm or spray (and since on the first one I was actually bear hunting, I'm not sure that qualifies), and I have never been touched, bitten, or otherwise harmed by a bear in close to 3 dozen close bear encounters.

Shelton is a strong proponent of carrying and using (and knowing how to use!) bear spray, as are Herrero, Smith, and others. I am also a strong proponent of bear spray.

However, Shelton has become stronger in his advocacy of firearms for high-risk persons (B.C. forestry workers, etc.) because his work has shown that as bear populations increase in concert with increased human activity in bear country, the probability of highly aggressive bear attacks increases, and his studies show that highly aggressive bears are probably less likely to be effectively stopped with spray. He cites numerous examples in his books of bears that were initially turned by spray, but then came back for another go-round. Such bears are rarely controlled with anything less than a lethal dose of high-velocity lead.

The bottom line is this: despite the conclusions of many "experts" who say that there is overwhelming evidence of the superiority of spray over firearms, I haven't seen that evidence yet in my reading of the literature. If you read the papers that have been published critically, you find that there is no direct head-to-head study that conclusively proves this. The apples-to-oranges rule violation is seen again and again.

So I say again, and truly mean this: if you can cite a paper that truly shows this superiority of spray over firearms, I'd love to read it. But I haven't seen that study yet, and there are a lot of bear biologists out there who share my skepticism.

"Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Region 4 bear manager Mike Madel [who attended the Missoula conference and was quoted in the news article] said the results are pretty convincing.

Madel said, 'Still, I know a lot of bear managers who would like to rely on their firearm.'"

In other words, there are a lot of people with far more experience and expertise than you or me who continue to carry their firearms in bear country, even though they may also carry bear spray.











I carry for two legged vermin, in the defense of mine (tall blondes (not skinny, but just right), sons, daughter in laws, grandsons, etc.) but I always appreciate critical thinking.

For the record I'll accept a life changing event and the disdain of others in the defense of my family.

Charlie






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What do you carry, Chas?


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
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Funny thread. Must be slow at the Burger King.

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Cheap Ruger SR9, werks pretty good at 10ft, even better at 5...

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It is a rare week that I don�t spend some time by myself in the brush in bear country. If I am working, I generally only carry bear spray. I always carry bear spray in an air travel container in my rig, spring through fall, so I never leave home without it. If I am playing in the brush, I�ll carry a Model 94 Trapper .30-30. CP.

A play-day in the Tobacco Roots
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Will this thread pass the "what does 223 ai mean?" thread in back and forth for 500 pages?


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Nope.

It ain't got the legs.

Not even close.


Exquisitely turdlike in all of his many manifestations!!

Resist much - obey little. Hayduke lives!

"30-06 guys don't worry about schit 'cause 30-06 guys don't worry....." 16bore

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CP-next time we meet up @ the range if you think of it bring along that lil Trapper I'd love to shoot it just a bit...grin

I missed one of those at a G-show a couple years back, that was one that I wished wouldn't of gotten away.

Not BPing but when hiking I've been known to carry my Ruger 44 semi rifle.

Dober


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Mark, I enjoyed our range time and conversation this week at Logan.

I made my Trapper a little more trail-handy by taking the saddle ring and ring post off. I also eliminated the cross-bolt safety with this fix:
http://www.gunblast.com/LFCombs-Win94.htm

And damn those senior moments-You betcha, I am also running Varget in my T-3 .22-.250.

I also have a Marlin 30-30 336 with receiver sights and an 06 in a 1895 that I�ll bring along when we get together to shoot the Trapper. CP.

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Those trapper's are nice handy little rigs.. I almost walked out of the door today with one, at Mark's favorite gun shop, in .45 LC.. That would be some big fun on tin cans and critters.


Originally Posted by captain seafire
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco
Those trapper's are nice handy little rigs.. I almost walked out of the door today with one, at Mark's favorite gun shop, in .45 LC.. That would be some big fun on tin cans and critters.


Got 3 16in Marlins. 44mag, 30/30 and 45/70. Handy as a pocket on a shirt. I'm pissed I missed the 357 when it was out.

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Got an 1894 in 44 Mag with AO ghost ring and ramp front, the 1895G in .45-70 with AO ghost ring and ramp front, and the 444P with Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20. Also a standard 336C in .30-30 with the same Leupold.


Exquisitely turdlike in all of his many manifestations!!

Resist much - obey little. Hayduke lives!

"30-06 guys don't worry about schit 'cause 30-06 guys don't worry....." 16bore

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Originally Posted by DELGUE
Nope.

It ain't got the legs.

Not even close.


Or the cleavage.......... grin


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Originally Posted by 222Rem
Originally Posted by DELGUE
Nope.

It ain't got the legs.

Not even close.


Or the cleavage.......... grin


Would that it did.. grin


Exquisitely turdlike in all of his many manifestations!!

Resist much - obey little. Hayduke lives!

"30-06 guys don't worry about schit 'cause 30-06 guys don't worry....." 16bore

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Originally Posted by deflave
Best hiking gun IN THE WORLD! (LCR 22LR)

[Linked Image]





This little [bleep] is sweet. I think it weighs about as much as a cell phone and a decent set of keys.

I want to get one for just walking/working around the riverbottom.

No bears here but other things that might need to get shot.

[bleep] spray, a little 22 hollow point is gonna hurt alot more.

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Originally Posted by CP
It is a rare week that I don�t spend some time by myself in the brush in bear country. If I am working, I generally only carry bear spray. I always carry bear spray in an air travel container in my rig, spring through fall, so I never leave home without it. If I am playing in the brush, I�ll carry a Model 94 Trapper .30-30. CP.

A play-day in the Tobacco Roots
[Linked Image]


I really like those little Trapper 94 30-30's. I had bought one back in the early 80s. Gave it away whe Orders forced a move and didn't have a convenient place to store it.

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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine

I really like those little Trapper 94 30-30's. I had bought one back in the early 80s. Gave it away whe Orders forced a move and didn't have a convenient place to store it.


Same thing happened to me with a Marlin 39A. I think I got $50 out of it.

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