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I'm looking for some help. I built myself an AR this summer with high hopes of getting all the things I wanted without the things I didn't. I read the directions and followed the rules to the best of my abilities, but 500 some load development rounds later I'm not anywhere near satisfied with the results. These targets are my last 2 and pretty typical of the results I'm getting, 2 or 3 in tight and then the rest out. Now keep in mind I can take any number of other rifles out and shoot sub minute groups in-between these, and I did it just to convince myself it wasn't me. Without knowing the details of the build, other than it's suppose to be a high end and highly thought of barrel, what would your first instinct be as to where the problem lies? ![[Linked Image]](http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b340/bbassi/groups.jpg)
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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I don't care who's barrel it is, it might be a bad one, you could have a bolt not matching up, or who knows. Need details.
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yep, but 3 minutes (roughly) per group and 5 to 10 minutes between groups.
Barrel is from AR15 performance.
I have my own ideas on what it could be but I'm wondering what others think.
Specs are
16" lightweight mid length, no comp.
YHM gas block and tube
houge FF forarm
stag upper and bolt
Nikon scope mounts
Muller sport dot scope
lower has a RRA 2 stage (like all my ARs. I actually took this one out of a 1/2" gun)
I've tried 3 different powders, 4 different bullets, and 3 different primers in all sorts of configurations. Best I can seem to do is 1 1/2" off a bench.
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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Campfire Ranger
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delete..
Last edited by Rancho_Loco; 09/30/12.
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Campfire Ranger
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are you handloading every shot or feeding from a magazine all shots. the first shot is probably the one that is away from the groups of two which leads to question #2
Is your case filled with powder or are you using a non filled case then...
Is your brass new or has it been fired a few times
are you crimping the bullets or not crimping the bullets all of the above relate to bullet setback or change in the OAL. It looks to me that my most consistent groups are with new brass and or a case full of varget. I just loaded some 75 grain bullets over benchmark I could here them crunch the powder when I loaded them. No possibility of setback. but may screw the bullet up and I probably will have to go to TAC and a crimp. Will see when I shoot them latter this week.
you said no muzzle device? Have you examined the muzzle with a good light and a magnifying glass, nothing is perfect even a Mercedes comes out once in a while that is a POS.
HOW about scope parallax, the groups look suspiciously like some I shot once with a scope that went back to the factory, somehow I got a Zeiss 2.5 x 8 that was a muzzleloader scope set for 50 yards. Move your eye relative to the scope and see if the crosswires move.
finally do you live in an area where it is windy most of the time...
What do you think it is?
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Campfire Ranger
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gosh no one chimed in to refute all my thinking!
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Campfire Outfitter
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are you handloading every shot or feeding from a magazine all shots. the first shot is probably the one that is away from the groups of two which leads to question #2
I've tried it both ways. It doesn't seem to make any real difference.
Is your case filled with powder or are you using a non filled case then...
those last two groups pictured were 26gr varget under a 55gr vmax. not crimped and loaded to mag length.
Is your brass new or has it been fired a few times
Not new. probably have 2-3 loads on them. Full length resized.
are you crimping the bullets or not crimping the bullets all of the above relate to bullet setback or change in the OAL. It looks to me that my most consistent groups are with new brass and or a case full of varget. I just loaded some 75 grain bullets over benchmark I could here them crunch the powder when I loaded them. No possibility of setback. but may screw the bullet up and I probably will have to go to TAC and a crimp. Will see when I shoot them latter this week.
you said no muzzle device? Have you examined the muzzle with a good light and a magnifying glass, nothing is perfect even a Mercedes comes out once in a while that is a POS.
I have not given it a detailed look, but I don't see any gouges in it. I tried a couple comps with this barrel but I didn't like any of them, and truthfully I thought they might be the reason for my chitty groups so I 86'd them and just through a tread protector on the barrel for now.
HOW about scope parallax, the groups look suspiciously like some I shot once with a scope that went back to the factory, somehow I got a Zeiss 2.5 x 8 that was a muzzleloader scope set for 50 yards. Move your eye relative to the scope and see if the crosswires move.
This was one of the 2 places I was going, although this scope was on my other predator AR and I could consistently shoot sub 1" with it on the bench. I do wonder though because of the double pairs in each group. It made me wonder if I'd have shot a 6th if it would have ended up in one of the "sub-groups" or not. I suppose anything is possible with a >$200 scope.
finally do you live in an area where it is windy most of the time...
Not when I was shooting.
What do you think it is? I'm leaning towards either a bad barrel, bad scope, or possibly a problem with the barrel to receiver connection. What I mean is I put a Houge FF tube on the gun. I have one on my RRA Coyote and I love it, so I decided to go with it here. The problem is you can't use a standard barrel wrench on the Houge tube (at least I can't figure out how to) The prongs in the wrench are too short to engage the holes on the barrel nut, so I'm left to use a strap wrench and redneck torque on the nut. I have no idea if I'm too tight or too loose. I've read where this can cause big accuracy problems but I can't figure out how to fix it short of replacing the hand guard with something else.
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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Don't sweat the torque, if it's not turning by hand, it's not too loose and I've never been able to get one too tight with a good strap wrench.
My first thought was and is a bad barrel.
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Pencil barrel Ruger Mini 14's don't like heavy bullets. Have you tried some 50 grainers by any chance? kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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just for grins, take the scope sight it at a 1 inch diam bullseye 100 yards away, then move your eye relative to the scope ocular. If the crosshairs move relative to the bulls eye you have found your problem. Despite its being on another rifle, holding your head differently each time you shoot is a good way to find parallax!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Verify scope first.
Then check to see that gas tube is centered and not binding in the carrier.
Make sure your front rest is under the forearm close to the mag well as you can get it, but not touching the mag well.
Beyond that IMHO when a barrel does that, as long as you've run a powder up and down the scale and it never quits exhibiting that grouping pattern, its simply a bad barrel. End of story there.
So you don't feel bad I've fought the exact same on a bolt gun but have not gone back to play with it any more since.... but I"m fairly sure its time to rechamber it, or replace it...
All the above is assuming you can shoot groups better with other firearms, and thats not meant as a negative statement.
Jeff
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Jeff, in between those two groups I took a newly rebarreled Savage 243 and put 4 in a group I could cover with a dime. The 5th was off by an inch but I knew I shanked that one before the recoil.
I can engage and disengage the BCG with finger pressure and there is no wear showing from binding on the tube. I would think I'd see some wear by now.
I'm going to swap out a known good VX-II this weekend and see if I can rule that out.
They say everything happens for a reason.
For me that reason is usually because I've made some bad decisions that I need to pay for.
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My first thought would be to try a known and proven scope, pay close attention to the mounting system when you take this one off. That's what solved the last run around like this that I had.
Mathew 22: 37-39
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Campfire Kahuna
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if you don't see wear by now, and when you flip the upper upside down and look at the tube and its centered.. I doubt its off enough to really matter.
IMHO the only other thing you can do, and it doens't add up to the 2/3 groups, would add up to a 1/4 group though would be load a mag, chamber a round, and doff it into the berm, then shoot the next five from the mag.
Your ability with the 243 AND the ability to call the yanked shot, tells me its most likely the arrow and not the Indian thats the issue.
I have had a "bad" Krieger... FWIW.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Oh yeah..... primers.... I tend to forget... take the best load and run eveyr primer through that particular load and see if it says anything....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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What did you find out? My curiosity is peaked!
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I may have missed it somewhere in the post but have you completely ruled out shooter error? Shooting AR's from a bench is a lot different than shooting a bolt rifle from a bench. Especially with a lighter barrel. I had the hardest time getting from 1.5" groups with my premium barreled AR's to MOA or better. I thought it was the scope, mounts, barrel, etc..... It was me.
My best results have been from shooting prone with a loaded bipod and a firm hold on the grip with rear bags. With AR's you need to be "locked in" to position to minimize the recoil and movement of all the moving parts that bolt rifles dont have. Follow through is key also. Get straight back behind the rifle (whether bench or prone), put forward pressure on the bipod, have a firm grip, and try to watch your bullet impact.
If its not your shooting technique, its very possible that 1.5" is the best your barrel and load combo will produce. Keep us posted, hope you can get them to shrink.
Last edited by CBMJR; 10/05/12.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Interestingly enough I never have had a problem shooting ARs for groups off the bench or otherwise.
I konw a lot have had issues though. And I do know that if I shoot off bench, I can get worse groups the further out the front rest is placed under the forearm. But I never put it way far out with bolt guns either.
As to bipods, IMHO I"ve always had best luck with a bit of pressure on them.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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