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Originally Posted by shrapnel
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Any of you ever see that before?


Never, but I almost missed that one.

And, I'm not a Damascus expert at all.

DF


Edited to add Pieper was a Belgium gun maker. See this link. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5435981/1 I see some old Pieper Damascus guns on the internet, but their barrels are so dirty, fine details can't be seen.


That may not even be Damascus. It could be a pattern put on the gun to make it look Damascus. In those days, the Damascus gun had a better reputation than the fluid steel barrels of the day...

Hmmm...

Now, that would make a lot of sense. How in the world could a Damascus craftsman repeatedly incorporate letters into his process. I'd think that would be just about impossible. Wonder how they put that pattern in place such that it would last?

DF

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Only 5740 Ithaca Knick SBT's were made.
The nice thing is that they do not sell for stupid money.
My original gun from 1927 was about $1005.
In it's time it was the best of the best and it's like driving a 55 Chevy convertable.

Originally Posted by lovemy99
not to knock the gun AT ALL, as the Ithaca SBTs are great guns, but up through 4Es are really pretty common and don't bring huge money at all. Even the 5-7s don't bring stupid money for the amount of engraving... and it should be noted that Ithaca routinely used much nicer wood on all grades of guns than any other major SxS builder of the era. I have owned or own two Grade 2s and both have exception wood for a pretty basic level of shotgun.

I think the Baker probably would command a bit more just on rarity sake more than anything...Baker doubles like the "black beauty are not uncommon but I certainly don't see a lot of the SBTs around.

just my $.02.


And DF, I can claim basically no part of the Pieper restoration other than writing the check and sourcing the buttplate which came from some GREAT help from a fellow campfire member who took a great deal of risk and bore some initial expense to help me get a duplicate made... great ppl here on the fire.


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Originally Posted by Bushmaster1313
Only 5740 Ithaca Knick SBT's were made.
The nice thing is that they do not sell for stupid money.
My original gun from 1927 was about $1005.
In it's time it was the best of the best and it's like driving a 55 Chevy convertable.

Originally Posted by lovemy99
not to knock the gun AT ALL, as the Ithaca SBTs are great guns, but up through 4Es are really pretty common and don't bring huge money at all. Even the 5-7s don't bring stupid money for the amount of engraving... and it should be noted that Ithaca routinely used much nicer wood on all grades of guns than any other major SxS builder of the era. I have owned or own two Grade 2s and both have exception wood for a pretty basic level of shotgun.

I think the Baker probably would command a bit more just on rarity sake more than anything...Baker doubles like the "black beauty are not uncommon but I certainly don't see a lot of the SBTs around.

just my $.02.


And DF, I can claim basically no part of the Pieper restoration other than writing the check and sourcing the buttplate which came from some GREAT help from a fellow campfire member who took a great deal of risk and bore some initial expense to help me get a duplicate made... great ppl here on the fire.



that's a ton of SBTs compared to most makers of the era... Fox made a little over 400 total.

coincidentally, I saw a 5E SBT at auction just today, listed with an expected sales price of $2000-$3000.


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Originally Posted by shrapnel
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by oldtrapper
Any of you ever see that before?


Never, but I almost missed that one.

And, I'm not a Damascus expert at all.

DF


Edited to add Pieper was a Belgium gun maker. See this link. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5435981/1 I see some old Pieper Damascus guns on the internet, but their barrels are so dirty, fine details can't be seen.


That may not even be Damascus. It could be a pattern put on the gun to make it look Damascus. In those days, the Damascus gun had a better reputation than the fluid steel barrels of the day...


It's real damascus... I just had the barrels "reblacked" by one of the most well known damascus barrel guys in the US (he actually did the whole restoration). I think it would be equally as impressive to put some sort of even and repeatable "coating" on a set of barrels in 1889 and have it still be visible this many years later.

Here is a good before picture showing the years of slow rusting that hid the underneath pattern after a light sanding...

[Linked Image]

I am somewhat hesitant to admit that I had no idea about the barrels when I bought the gun... just pure dumb luck... was looking for an cheap and nice hammer gun to consider restoring and playing with myself.

DF, there are lots of Pieper guns out there...one of the first to "mass produce" guns... they made single shot rim-fires, pistols, shotguns, and rifle/shotgun combos. However, you won't find very many with that damascus on them (or this grade of wood)...

[Linked Image]

I've done quite a good bit of research on the subject and have only found one other known gun with this damascus. There are likely a few others but at this point can't imagine there are too many.

Pieper is most famous for the breech block barrel design. The chamber area of this gun are fluid steel but the barrels are obviously the damascus pattern...

[Linked Image]

The barrels are engraved "Grand Prize Paris Exhibition 1889"

not a great picture but...

[Linked Image]


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Very interesting. Learned a lot that I didn't know. Thanks for sharing.

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The most common Peiper guns in the US are their bottom-of-the-line "farmer doubles" sold by Wards and others as the "Bayard Arms" brand. Most of them are very worn by now and probably not shooters any more, but one in good condition can be shot after being checked by a seriously expert "old doubles" gunsmith, as long as you use 2 1/2" black powder or low pressure smokeless shells. They don't have the fluid steel monobloc breach that many of the higher grade Peipers (like the one shown) have.

I have my great grandfather's Peiper "Cape gun," a side-by-side hammer combination gun on a miniature frame that was made with a 2" .410/12mm shotgun barrel on the right side and a ".44 Largo" (.44-40 WCF) barrel on the left. He bought it in Panama City in the first decade of the 20th century. It also has damascus barrels (no fancy pattern) with the steel monobloc breach.

Peiper guns are very under-appreciated in the US, IMO.


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I haven't truly lusted after a gun in quite a while, but that one brings back the itch.


https://postimg.cc/xXjW1cqx/81efa4c5

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

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The Greener cross bolt is a nice touch IMO. I like their strength and mechanical advantage.


I hope ya shoot it.


https://postimg.cc/xXjW1cqx/81efa4c5

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its likely going to BC with me in a few days... hoping to have time to take it after a few grouse.


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This arrived last May. A 16 gauge flintlock fowler by Mike Brooks. Been shooting Trap with it and working up loads. It goes into the field next week when the Upland season opens in PA.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


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Now THAT is class. I think MY once-a-year single shot shotgun hunt is a "handicap" event. This takes it to a whole new level of expertise!

Beautiful. I want one, but I'd insist on "all modern conveniences,"meaning a percussion cap action. Just not ready for flint, although it would sure be easy to "keep your powder dry" here in Sou Cal....


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Originally Posted by PeteD
This arrived last May. A 16 gauge flintlock fowler by Mike Brooks. Been shooting Trap with it and working up loads. It goes into the field next week when the Upland season opens in PA.
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


holy crud... that's going to be adding a unique challenge to upland hunting!! What does that thing weight? This would certainly require that follow through thing...

I like your style and can respect the challenge that you are adding... but I hope you have a dog that holds them tight!


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I got a 10 spot says it weighs less than you think. Without knowing any of the dims my guess would be 7# or a small bit more.

I've a .45 cal rifle w/42" barrel that weighs 7#3oz that fools everyone that picks it up after asking the same.

Some lovely iron in this thread...ought to haul out my camera...


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


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Here are a couple of my Rugers, a 28 and a 20. The 20 is the blued one, an early gun, engraved, and has been very reliable over the years. Its a bit to heavy for a 20 bore. The 28 is a delight to carry and as good a quail gun as I have had.

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

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I too have a Red Label 28. Mine has the 28" barrels. Deadly. Wish I'd got a 28 40 years ago.

Also like the restrained style of the engraving on your 20. Too many of them are just overdone. Yours is--classy. Easy to look at but doesn't yell out "Look at me; I'm classy!"

Last edited by Mesa; 10/27/12.

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Thank you. I wish we knew who did it.

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Yes, it would be very interesting to know who the engraver was. Many of them kinda go overboard with the decoration; yours didn't.

One thing I will say in defense of Ruger's 20 guages is that you can actually shoot 3" shells in their 3" chambers without getting socked with recoil because their weight helps slow the recoil impulse. So if you have to use the 20 for everything from bunnies to gobblers or geese or coyotes, you CAN. I own several Italian double 20 magnums (A. Zoli SxS and Beretta O/U) and they are nice and light to carry for upland hunting but kick like crazy with magnum shells.

When Ruger did make a lightweight double (the Gold Label 12 SxS), they stayed with 3" chambers. I've only fired 3" magnums in mine once. That was quite enough.


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Mike Armstrong
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Latest shotgun:

1930's Remington 31R

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

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Neat!!! First 31R I've ever seen--kind of a rare bird! The "Cadillac of Riot Guns"??? (Or is that the Belgian Browning Auto Fives the Brits used to issue for jungle warfare?).


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I did some trading 2 weeks ago and ended up with a Ithaca 200E in 20 Ga. Points perfect for me. Can't wait to bust some clays or Bobs with it.


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