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No data or details. Saw this photo on line from someone who obviously exceeded pressure limits. The point to be made, the .45-70 Marlin, due to a relatively thin barrel at the threads and the way the receiver is made, has a weak point where this one blew, right side, just ahead of the ejection port. The .444's have more steel around the case due to smaller diameter. I've not seen reports of them coming apart like this.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
No data or details. Saw this photo on line from someone who obviously exceeded pressure limits. The point to be made, the .45-70 Marlin, due to a relatively thin barrel at the threads and the way the receiver is made, has a weak point where this one blew, right side, just ahead of the ejection port. The .444's have more steel around the case due to smaller diameter. I've not seen reports of them coming apart like this.

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Have a buddy that shoots a Marlin in 45-70 he's never had problem one and several guys at the range as well. They us a little faster powder for most of those loads. My guess is someone way way over MAX! You can blow up the strongest bolt gun with enough powder you see pictures of them all the time.


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I have (6) 45-70's (no .444's) and have shot them for many years. Only two are Marlins and I've never blown one up. I don't intend to do so.

The .45-70 Marlin isn't quite as strong as the .444 Marlin, due to the design issues already covered.

Just something to keep in mind. Not a reason to chunk the .45-70's and load up on .444's... laugh

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Well, like I needed another reason to add a Marlin 444 to my want list. But it's on there now....


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I have had a few 45/70s no complaints at al. My next Marlin is to be a 444. With Beartooth data it performes more like a 405, now that, sports fans is interesting!

BTW Scorpion8 welcome to the 'hood.


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Originally Posted by Uncas
BTW Scorpion8 welcome to the 'hood.


Glad to be here!


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If memory serves me,that 45-70 was blown up using the wrong powder..AA7 instead of RL-7.The guy just grabbed a can with a 7 on it...

The Marlin 45-70 is plenty strong..There are documented cases of using the wrong powder (again) and locking it up only to have a smith fix it and estimate the pressure to be in the 80K range with no harm done ater the mishap.The guy is still using that Marlin as far as I know.

Test were done for the 454 Causll in a levergun using one Marlin and a couple Winchester '94's and the Marlin lasted somewhere around 20 rounds of 62K+ shots only to fail to lock up properly after.The Winchester '94 lasted about 40 shots and again,if my memory serves me,the action was mangled with the same loads in the 62,000 PSI range to mimic the 454 Caull.

If anyone thinks the Marlin 45-70 is not strong,they need to re-think..Buffalo Bore loads a 300 grain Speer Unicore to 2350 fps for the modern 45-70 and Wild West loads there '95 actions to 45 CUP.

There plenty strong....You can't get enough powder(for 45-70 use) in a case to blow one up.You may have issues but it won't blow like that picture.You can't get a double charge of powder used for reloading 45-70 rounds in a 45-70 case reguardless of which case and I am not talking pistol powders some choose to use..

As measured by Brian Pierce!!!

1-.450 Marlin Brass/73.5 grains of water (2.7 grains less than Remington 45-70 Brass!!!)

2-.45-70 Remington Brass/76.2 grains of water (1.3 grains less than Starline Brass)

3-.45-70 Starline Brass/77.5 grains of water (2.8 grains less than Winchester Brass)

4-.45-70 Winchester Brass/80.3 grains of water (4.1 grains "More" than Remington Brass)

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As an example:...These loads do not exceed 40K PSI(not CUP) according to the author.

Note the water capacity left when the bullet is seated to the listed depth..It is totally impossible to double charge these loads..I left some out as I am having problems with photobucket this morning.

The blown Marlins come from using the wrong powder or user error not double charging a load with the appropriate powder or to many grains of the appropriate powder..

I never use pistol powders in any of my 45-70's.There is plenty of pressure checked data for the 45-70 from mild to wild using appropriate powders.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Starline Brass was used in all these loads!!!!

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Quote
A 44 Magnum Rifle has essentially the same performance as a 444 and, like the 45-70 has 1000s of load options.

Buy a 307 and 356 Winchester, then, with your 444, you'ld have a real "collection" ! [/quote]

You have no idea what ur talking about! Just be quite and stop talking out ur rear end.Geeze!

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I love the 444......

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The .444 is a poor design that Marlin picked to make an easy big bore for the 336. Poor design meaning a short fat bullet with the slow stupid 38" twist.
Later with a little more effort they managed to shoe horn the 45-70 into the undersize 336.
Neither round is a great set up in the 336. But there is no reason for the existence of the .444. It would have made a better single shot round with a faster twist but it is not really needed there either. It would have made a lot more sense in .375 with a shorter case and Winchester's equally silly .375 would have never been born.

Originally Posted by barnabus
Quote
A 44 Magnum Rifle has essentially the same performance as a 444 and, like the 45-70 has 1000s of load options.

Buy a 307 and 356 Winchester, then, with your 444, you'ld have a real "collection" !


You have no idea what ur talking about! Just be quite and stop talking out ur rear end.Geeze! [/quote]

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I have a triple 4.It has a 24 inch microgroove barrel and no safety & I love it! I shot factory remington ammo at deer this year and was impressed. It did ruin some shoulder meat. I have handloaded 290 grain speers and 300 grain hornadys. They are very accurate but have quite a bit lower impact point then the 240 factory's. My 444 is custom in the fact it has a 1894 straight grip and forearm. Jim Brockman made a glove loop lever for it & did the trigger to 3#s. He also worked the action to near glass. It has a pac pad and a vari x III 1.5 X 5 cirlcle dot illuminated scope on it. Like I say it is very accurate and a joy to shoot and carry. If you want to learn more about marlins I would recommend Marlin owners forum. That sight seems more about learning and sharing and less about being negative. That sight has taught me a lot about loads and bullets for the microgroove barrel.I think the newer ballard rifled 444's can shoot the heavier slugs and more closely emulate the new 45/70.

Last edited by Angus1895; 12/17/13.

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Thanks for putting that data up. Rest assured that when one takes 400+ grain slugs and gets the velocity up into the high teens, that it does get ones attention on the back end. It's good to warn folks when they're sitting down at a bench for the first time.

Another interesting aspect with those heavy slugs is torque. I've never noticed it with my whizzum magnums, but with my 45-70 and 90, one can feel the rifle twist as well as recoil.


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Marlin introduced the mighty 444 several years about 8 years after Winchester's model 71 went out of production. This rifle and cartridge filled the big game cartridge gap when the .348 went under due to poor sales. I like to think of the 444 Marlin as an improved Winchester 71 that is, takes a modern scope easily and shoots heavy bullets quite well.

Comparing the modern 444 to the antique 45-70 is boring to me. I prefer to compare the 444 to .348 in real life performance on big game. Speer's 270 grain "Deep Curl" bullet performs amazingly well when mated to the mighty 444!

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Originally Posted by ireload2
The .444 is a poor design that Marlin picked to make an easy big bore for the 336.


BULL CHIT...


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I think the .444 is better off with 300 grain or heavier bullets, if twist supports it. That will allow use on the largest game. I can't see boring a huge hole in a barrel and then using a bullet with poor sectional density.

It loses performance rapidly, compared to the .348, when you start getting on out there, but so does the .45-70. The .348 relatively flat shooting compared to the other two.

Yes, the .45-70 is a handful with 400+ grain bullet in the high teens! And it will smash bones with aplomb. I still have a rifle in this caliber and use it every year, but only for deer, and black bear if the opportunity arises.

I have owned and taken game with all three, and I don't see one iota of difference in terminal performance with similar bullets on deer, black bear, or pig, and would hunt big bear with all three, given appropriate bullets.

Basically, I like both the .444 and the .45-70, and when someone mentioned the .348, I felt like I got that dreamy look in my eyes remembering it......and wonder why in the hell did I sell it?

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I totally agree....the 444 is a close range weapon. Period. But man what a weapon she is close! I do not own a 45/70 but I do not understand how it is superior to the triple 4.


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Well, it can shoot some pretty heavy bullets at a fair pace, and I have run 300 grain HPs along at 2200 fps, and that not being listed as a max load. Getting into the heavier weights, the .45-70 will start to show an advantage, but the .444, twisted right, is a perfectly capable big game cartridge.

It does have a diameter advantage, much like the .45 LC vs the .44 Mag.

If they had twisted the .444 in the beginning with a 1/20" instead of 1/38, I believe you would have seen a lot more development in the heavy-bullet department with this round. In my thinking, it begs for heavy bullets. That round has real potential to be a thumper.

As I said earlier, in the field, I've not noticed a real difference between all three cartridges. I've noticed a bigger difference in discussion, each camp staunchly defending it's choice.

I would hunt with any of the three.

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.45-70 has more load options, and heavier bullets available.

.444 is lighter recoiling, has lighter bullets, and a better trajectory.


I'm a .45-70 shooter myself. I find .45-70 brass much easier to stumble across than .444, and better .458" bullet selection too.

I constantly push my .45-70 to max numbers with 405 cast bullets and have not gotten a single pressure sign in probably 100-150 rounds at max loads. Just don't go over board, and work your loads up carefully. Stick to loads recommended for the Marlin 1895, and you'll be fine.

Get which ever one you can find that fits the budget, and roll with it.


Last edited by GuideGun; 12/19/13.

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