Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin Talk 444 versus 45-70 Marlin

There are pictures on the internet of blown up .45-70, 1895 Marlins. Check it out and if you don't find any, I'll post some.

I'm a .45-70 fan, owning around 5-6 in different configurations, a couple are 1895's. I own no .444's and am not in the market for one.

The .444 round is slimmer than the .45-70, resulting in more steel surrounding the ctg, especially at the weak point of the 1895 receiver, ahead of the ejection port, right side of the barrel.

I've never seen a .444 blown up. There may be fewer of them out there, or the set up may be stronger due to the smaller diameter of the .444 case.

I wonder what Marlin did to strengthen the .450, 1895 receiver/barrel at the weak spot. The .450 case may be stronger than the .45-70 case, but I don't see how the gun could be strengthened at that spot. The design is what it is and those two rounds have the same case body diameter.

DF

The only difference in the two rifles (.450, .45-70) is the threads, v-shaped vs square.

The most popular picture of an 1895 kaboom was done because the wrong powder was used. That much of that type of powder would have blown anything up.

I would have no problems whatsoever with a steady diet of loads in an 1895 running at 38.5 Kpsi, but I have found that to get more than enough performance only requires 35 K.

Unfortunately, that's not the only picture, just one of a group.

DF

Like I said, all the performance you need is at 35 kpsi. I don't know why people have to try to run them at 50 kpsi.

You are correct in that the .444 is stronger due to it's smaller diameter. Something else to consider is the reduced bolt thrust.

I have several rifles chambered for both rounds and they are both heavy hitters. I will always have a soft spot for the .444 and would pick it in a " keep only one" situation. I keep stocked up on components but in my area the only 45/70 bullets (jacketed) a fella can find are the 300 grain Hornadys. It's almost impossible to find the 400 or 405's. Would love to find some more of the 300 Speers that Vic loves.

To my understanding the .444 was developed as a throwback to the old express type cartridges that used the lighter flatter shooting bullets. I find it hilarious that most people that griped about the .444 needing heavier bullets probably never shot anything bigger than deer or the occasional Black Bear. Just about any jacketed bullet from 240 to 300 grains will handle that with repeatable boredom, and bigger critters too.

I love em both but never understood all the bitchin about bullets.

paint, my way of thinking is that, though it's nice to use the lighter, flatter shooting bullets, you leave a lot on the table by not being able to utilize the heavies. It should be an option if you so choose, and the .444 is capable of taking quite large animals if so twisted.

It is a very versatile round if it can use them, and I just don't understand why Marlin didn't twist it tight enough for the 330+ grain bullets. Much in the same manner as the 1984 in .44 mag, or the current crop of .22-250s that still have 1/14 twist.

You're right Vic, I don't understand it either. The faster twist would work better, but driven fast enough there are several 300 grain plus bullets that work well. My favorite is the 300 grain Speer in the 444.

My favorite in the 45/70 is the 405 Rem but I've had rotten luck finding them and have been using the 300 grain Hornady on deer and its great. I would love to find some 300 grain Speers for it but been SOL there too. Been trying to hold back on using my 400 and 405's.

I've killed a couple of deer with some of Beartooth's hardcasts in both the .44 mag (300 grain WFN) and .45-70 (Piledriver Jr), and they seem to work pretty good with less meat damage than the jacketed bullets. Keep that in mind if you continue to have a problem finding your favorites. The performance seems to be on par with the expanding bullets in regards to how far the animal goes after the shot, and there is absolutely no concern about hitting bones! I tried some of them after getting concerned about future supplies, and they do work.

That 300 grain Speer, in both .429 and .458, is a real sleeper of a bullet. It is simply a very reliable bullet and suitable for game larger than deer.

This is my go to for 444 and 44 mag Lee's C430-310-RF gas check. These are heavy hitters in both and I've started casting em a tad on the softer side so they come in at almost 320grs.They feed flawlessly and put deer down with authority.

Ooohhhh, dem things have a big ol' flat nose!!

I bet you don't have to worry about penetration.

Excellent penetration and I have to be careful not to fill a second tag if you get my drift.

Gotta love a good cast bullet!! Nice.

Not cast by me, but the ones I use:

.44 Mag rifle, about 1570 fps


.45-70, 1800 fps


Woody, those are some nice ones you've cast.

Thanks fellas I enjoy casting almost as much as shooting and wouldn't think of getting rid of the 444..not a better chambering for cast bullets in the heavily wooded river sloughs I hunt unless it would be a 45/70.

Vic those are great looking bullets in both chamberings.

Those are made by Beartooth Bullets.

I have had excellent results with them. It seems that Marlins seem to want .460" bullets in their .45-70s, and most Ruger firearms tend to run a little big on bore size also, so I use .432" in both rifle and pistol loads.

The little 77/44, which is not particularly known as an accurate rifle, shoots darn good groups at 100 yards using the 300 grain WFN GC, hovering down around 1�". I use Lil gun as the propellent.

I hope to be smacking some deer in the next two weeks with that .45-70, I've already put meat in the freezer with the .44 mag.

They both kill pretty equal. A few things to keep in mind are the two diff twist rates afforded to the 444 depending on the year, the selection and constant improvement of 45/70 cartridges.

I'd take a 45/70

I have the greatest respect for the 45/70 since shooting its bigger brother the 45/110 as heavy 44 or 45 cal bullets at moderate velocities absolutely dispatch game with authority.

This comparison mirrors my handgun hunting experience with the 41 and 44mag for critter killing perimeters as I feel confident choosing either for most hunting scenarios.

If you compare Marlin rifles in 450M and 45/70 side by side you will notice that the ejection port and load port are smaller in the case of the 450. The 450 has a smaller rim and the mag tube is smaller than a 45/70 tube mag, which leaves more metal in the critical area between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the magazine. Marlin also changed the thread type in the 450 (Vee vs Flat thread), again leaving more metal in this critical area. Most examples of blow ups of Marlin rifles as far as I can recall have been 45/70's and have given way at the bottom of the barrel and the side just like in the example posted earlier.

Loaded sensibly a 45/70 is fine but the 450 has more margin for error.

I know the .450 makes one helluva conversion for a bolt rifle chambered in one of the WSM cartridges. At 50 Kpsi, it's a serious thumper.