Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin Talk 444 versus 45-70 Marlin

Okay, always wanted a 444 Marlin probably because I like the looks (curved pistol grip) that is similar to the Marlin 336 design which is just gorgeous. But how does 444 performance on bigger game compare to 45-70?

444 Marlin shells seem awful spendy, which can be cut into with handloads, but is it a round-rifle combo worth getting into?

enough said right here to make you want two of them:

http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17

There is no North American game animal that could tell the difference in the two if hit in the boiler room. Buy one and give it a spin. They are a lot of fun, but do seem to have a sharper kick than the big shove of the 45-70.

What do you mean by "bigger game?"

I've got both. Years ago I was looking for a 444 when I found a .45-70 and bought that. Last year I finally got a 444, but haven't taken any game with it yet. My .45-70 has a straight grip and hard plastic cresent but plate, and the 444 has a pistol grip and recoil pad.

The difference in recoil between the two is significant. By that I mean I can shoot the 444 better, and good enough for a higher number of rounds. There isn't much difference in the cost of reloading. Of the two I like my 444 better.

Anything bigger than not-big. Large bears, moose. Things that need a stopper as a backup.

Where does the 450 Marlin fit in with these calibers? Thanks

I have had both. The 45-70 I shot with 300 grain hps. They acted like a blitzking. I then shot some 420's, they hurt.

I got a 444 a few years later, and I like it a lot better.

Just look at the ballistics. The 444 is a semi-obsolete cartridge that has no advantage of any kind over the 45-70. The 45-70 has 1000s of load and bullet choices, is very accurate and will take any game in North America (and with proper loads in a strong rifle .... anything, anywhere.)

A 44 Magnum Rifle has essentially the same performance as a 444 and, like the 45-70 has 1000s of load options.

Buy a 307 and 356 Winchester, then, with your 444, you'ld have a real "collection" !

44mag same performance as the 444?

I have a 44 and a 444. Not quite the same,oh they use the same bullets. However that's where the similarities end. Think 3030 to 06.

Not even close - 444 significantly more powerful.

The 450 M. is essentially the same cartridge as the 45-70 but loaded to much higher pressure, which gets more velocity.
The case is designed so it will not chamber in a 45-70 to avoid damage to older low pressure firearm actions.
You can load the 45-70 to the same higher pressures in more modern guns that will handle the pressure safely, but have to be careful not to load the high pressure rounds/handloads in an older gun that will not survive the pressure.

Ted

Are the 44 Mag bullets tough enough for the 444 Marlin velocities? I use a lot of Alaska Backpacker hard-cast solid lead ammo and carry these in my 44 Mag when hiking. Would that be a better handloaded bullet?

Well hell yeah. Use 265 grainers, or stick with the hard cast.

Go to marlin owners. Lots of info there.

No they don't use the same bullets. Marlin had a lot of trouble initially with folks using jacketed pistol bullets in the 444. 300 or 350 gr hardcasts are the way to go (if you can get them to shoot)

Best you can do with a 444 300 gr (and the twist is wrong) is almost 2100 fps
A 45-70 can 2500 or more and is not bordering on being obsolete.

Factory loads maybe. But I stuff mine with the 240 XTP's, they come from the same box.

I don't think you can go wrong either way if you are wanting a big bore levergun.

The newer 444s with the Ballard rifling are 1/20 twist. They will handle anything up to the 400 gr stuff from Beartooth.

I've had a couple Marlin 45-70s along the way, and still have one. Never had a 444 but it has a lot of appeal to me since I load/shoot 44Mag revolver. Never had one though. But a 444 could be loaded up with a lot of stuff from 180gr JHP up to 400+ gr cast. That's a lot of latitude.

The 45-70 can go 300-500+ gr, and that's a lot of options too.

One nice thing about the 444 is that it has more steel around the chamber.

+1

I have several .45-70's, no .444's. So, that says which I prefer.

MM, on the other hand, makes an excellent point. Here is a photo of the right side of a .45-70 receiver, blown away by a high pressure load. With the large, .45-70 round, this is the Achilles Heel of the Marlin action, the area forward of the ejection port. I don't think .444's are as likely to do this.

DF

Do you have the data on the load that did this?

No data or details. Saw this photo on line from someone who obviously exceeded pressure limits. The point to be made, the .45-70 Marlin, due to a relatively thin barrel at the threads and the way the receiver is made, has a weak point where this one blew, right side, just ahead of the ejection port. The .444's have more steel around the case due to smaller diameter. I've not seen reports of them coming apart like this.

DF

Have a buddy that shoots a Marlin in 45-70 he's never had problem one and several guys at the range as well. They us a little faster powder for most of those loads. My guess is someone way way over MAX! You can blow up the strongest bolt gun with enough powder you see pictures of them all the time.

I have (6) 45-70's (no .444's) and have shot them for many years. Only two are Marlins and I've never blown one up. I don't intend to do so.

The .45-70 Marlin isn't quite as strong as the .444 Marlin, due to the design issues already covered.

Just something to keep in mind. Not a reason to chunk the .45-70's and load up on .444's...

DF

Well, like I needed another reason to add a Marlin 444 to my want list. But it's on there now....

I have had a few 45/70s no complaints at al. My next Marlin is to be a 444. With Beartooth data it performes more like a 405, now that, sports fans is interesting!

BTW Scorpion8 welcome to the 'hood.

Glad to be here!

If memory serves me,that 45-70 was blown up using the wrong powder..AA7 instead of RL-7.The guy just grabbed a can with a 7 on it...

The Marlin 45-70 is plenty strong..There are documented cases of using the wrong powder (again) and locking it up only to have a smith fix it and estimate the pressure to be in the 80K range with no harm done ater the mishap.The guy is still using that Marlin as far as I know.

Test were done for the 454 Causll in a levergun using one Marlin and a couple Winchester '94's and the Marlin lasted somewhere around 20 rounds of 62K+ shots only to fail to lock up properly after.The Winchester '94 lasted about 40 shots and again,if my memory serves me,the action was mangled with the same loads in the 62,000 PSI range to mimic the 454 Caull.

If anyone thinks the Marlin 45-70 is not strong,they need to re-think..Buffalo Bore loads a 300 grain Speer Unicore to 2350 fps for the modern 45-70 and Wild West loads there '95 actions to 45 CUP.

There plenty strong....You can't get enough powder(for 45-70 use) in a case to blow one up.You may have issues but it won't blow like that picture.You can't get a double charge of powder used for reloading 45-70 rounds in a 45-70 case reguardless of which case and I am not talking pistol powders some choose to use..

As measured by Brian Pierce!!!

1-.450 Marlin Brass/73.5 grains of water (2.7 grains less than Remington 45-70 Brass!!!)

2-.45-70 Remington Brass/76.2 grains of water (1.3 grains less than Starline Brass)

3-.45-70 Starline Brass/77.5 grains of water (2.8 grains less than Winchester Brass)

4-.45-70 Winchester Brass/80.3 grains of water (4.1 grains "More" than Remington Brass)

Jayco

As an example:...These loads do not exceed 40K PSI(not CUP) according to the author.

Note the water capacity left when the bullet is seated to the listed depth..It is totally impossible to double charge these loads..I left some out as I am having problems with photobucket this morning.

The blown Marlins come from using the wrong powder or user error not double charging a load with the appropriate powder or to many grains of the appropriate powder..

I never use pistol powders in any of my 45-70's.There is plenty of pressure checked data for the 45-70 from mild to wild using appropriate powders.





Starline Brass was used in all these loads!!!!

Jayco

Quote
A 44 Magnum Rifle has essentially the same performance as a 444 and, like the 45-70 has 1000s of load options.

Buy a 307 and 356 Winchester, then, with your 444, you'ld have a real "collection" ! [/quote]

You have no idea what ur talking about! Just be quite and stop talking out ur rear end.Geeze!

I love the 444......

The .444 is a poor design that Marlin picked to make an easy big bore for the 336. Poor design meaning a short fat bullet with the slow stupid 38" twist.
Later with a little more effort they managed to shoe horn the 45-70 into the undersize 336.
Neither round is a great set up in the 336. But there is no reason for the existence of the .444. It would have made a better single shot round with a faster twist but it is not really needed there either. It would have made a lot more sense in .375 with a shorter case and Winchester's equally silly .375 would have never been born.



You have no idea what ur talking about! Just be quite and stop talking out ur rear end.Geeze! [/quote]

I have a triple 4.It has a 24 inch microgroove barrel and no safety & I love it! I shot factory remington ammo at deer this year and was impressed. It did ruin some shoulder meat. I have handloaded 290 grain speers and 300 grain hornadys. They are very accurate but have quite a bit lower impact point then the 240 factory's. My 444 is custom in the fact it has a 1894 straight grip and forearm. Jim Brockman made a glove loop lever for it & did the trigger to 3#s. He also worked the action to near glass. It has a pac pad and a vari x III 1.5 X 5 cirlcle dot illuminated scope on it. Like I say it is very accurate and a joy to shoot and carry. If you want to learn more about marlins I would recommend Marlin owners forum. That sight seems more about learning and sharing and less about being negative. That sight has taught me a lot about loads and bullets for the microgroove barrel.I think the newer ballard rifled 444's can shoot the heavier slugs and more closely emulate the new 45/70.

Thanks for putting that data up. Rest assured that when one takes 400+ grain slugs and gets the velocity up into the high teens, that it does get ones attention on the back end. It's good to warn folks when they're sitting down at a bench for the first time.

Another interesting aspect with those heavy slugs is torque. I've never noticed it with my whizzum magnums, but with my 45-70 and 90, one can feel the rifle twist as well as recoil.

Marlin introduced the mighty 444 several years about 8 years after Winchester's model 71 went out of production. This rifle and cartridge filled the big game cartridge gap when the .348 went under due to poor sales. I like to think of the 444 Marlin as an improved Winchester 71 that is, takes a modern scope easily and shoots heavy bullets quite well.

Comparing the modern 444 to the antique 45-70 is boring to me. I prefer to compare the 444 to .348 in real life performance on big game. Speer's 270 grain "Deep Curl" bullet performs amazingly well when mated to the mighty 444!

Sherwood

BULL CHIT...

I think the .444 is better off with 300 grain or heavier bullets, if twist supports it. That will allow use on the largest game. I can't see boring a huge hole in a barrel and then using a bullet with poor sectional density.

It loses performance rapidly, compared to the .348, when you start getting on out there, but so does the .45-70. The .348 relatively flat shooting compared to the other two.

Yes, the .45-70 is a handful with 400+ grain bullet in the high teens! And it will smash bones with aplomb. I still have a rifle in this caliber and use it every year, but only for deer, and black bear if the opportunity arises.

I have owned and taken game with all three, and I don't see one iota of difference in terminal performance with similar bullets on deer, black bear, or pig, and would hunt big bear with all three, given appropriate bullets.

Basically, I like both the .444 and the .45-70, and when someone mentioned the .348, I felt like I got that dreamy look in my eyes remembering it......and wonder why in the hell did I sell it?

I totally agree....the 444 is a close range weapon. Period. But man what a weapon she is close! I do not own a 45/70 but I do not understand how it is superior to the triple 4.

Well, it can shoot some pretty heavy bullets at a fair pace, and I have run 300 grain HPs along at 2200 fps, and that not being listed as a max load. Getting into the heavier weights, the .45-70 will start to show an advantage, but the .444, twisted right, is a perfectly capable big game cartridge.

It does have a diameter advantage, much like the .45 LC vs the .44 Mag.

If they had twisted the .444 in the beginning with a 1/20" instead of 1/38, I believe you would have seen a lot more development in the heavy-bullet department with this round. In my thinking, it begs for heavy bullets. That round has real potential to be a thumper.

As I said earlier, in the field, I've not noticed a real difference between all three cartridges. I've noticed a bigger difference in discussion, each camp staunchly defending it's choice.

I would hunt with any of the three.

.45-70 has more load options, and heavier bullets available.

.444 is lighter recoiling, has lighter bullets, and a better trajectory.


I'm a .45-70 shooter myself. I find .45-70 brass much easier to stumble across than .444, and better .458" bullet selection too.

I constantly push my .45-70 to max numbers with 405 cast bullets and have not gotten a single pressure sign in probably 100-150 rounds at max loads. Just don't go over board, and work your loads up carefully. Stick to loads recommended for the Marlin 1895, and you'll be fine.

Get which ever one you can find that fits the budget, and roll with it.

read this and enjoy the 444
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/44

There are pictures on the internet of blown up .45-70, 1895 Marlins. Check it out and if you don't find any, I'll post some.

I'm a .45-70 fan, owning around 5-6 in different configurations, a couple are 1895's. I own no .444's and am not in the market for one.

The .444 round is slimmer than the .45-70, resulting in more steel surrounding the ctg, especially at the weak point of the 1895 receiver, ahead of the ejection port, right side of the barrel.

I've never seen a .444 blown up. There may be fewer of them out there, or the set up may be stronger due to the smaller diameter of the .444 case.

I wonder what Marlin did to strengthen the .450, 1895 receiver/barrel at the weak spot. The .450 case may be stronger than the .45-70 case, but I don't see how the gun could be strengthened at that spot. The design is what it is and those two rounds have the same case body diameter.

DF

The only difference in the two rifles (.450, .45-70) is the threads, v-shaped vs square.

The most popular picture of an 1895 kaboom was done because the wrong powder was used. That much of that type of powder would have blown anything up.

I would have no problems whatsoever with a steady diet of loads in an 1895 running at 38.5 Kpsi, but I have found that to get more than enough performance only requires 35 K.

Unfortunately, that's not the only picture, just one of a group.

DF

Like I said, all the performance you need is at 35 kpsi. I don't know why people have to try to run them at 50 kpsi.

You are correct in that the .444 is stronger due to it's smaller diameter. Something else to consider is the reduced bolt thrust.

I have several rifles chambered for both rounds and they are both heavy hitters. I will always have a soft spot for the .444 and would pick it in a " keep only one" situation. I keep stocked up on components but in my area the only 45/70 bullets (jacketed) a fella can find are the 300 grain Hornadys. It's almost impossible to find the 400 or 405's. Would love to find some more of the 300 Speers that Vic loves.

To my understanding the .444 was developed as a throwback to the old express type cartridges that used the lighter flatter shooting bullets. I find it hilarious that most people that griped about the .444 needing heavier bullets probably never shot anything bigger than deer or the occasional Black Bear. Just about any jacketed bullet from 240 to 300 grains will handle that with repeatable boredom, and bigger critters too.

I love em both but never understood all the bitchin about bullets.

paint, my way of thinking is that, though it's nice to use the lighter, flatter shooting bullets, you leave a lot on the table by not being able to utilize the heavies. It should be an option if you so choose, and the .444 is capable of taking quite large animals if so twisted.

It is a very versatile round if it can use them, and I just don't understand why Marlin didn't twist it tight enough for the 330+ grain bullets. Much in the same manner as the 1984 in .44 mag, or the current crop of .22-250s that still have 1/14 twist.

You're right Vic, I don't understand it either. The faster twist would work better, but driven fast enough there are several 300 grain plus bullets that work well. My favorite is the 300 grain Speer in the 444.

My favorite in the 45/70 is the 405 Rem but I've had rotten luck finding them and have been using the 300 grain Hornady on deer and its great. I would love to find some 300 grain Speers for it but been SOL there too. Been trying to hold back on using my 400 and 405's.

I've killed a couple of deer with some of Beartooth's hardcasts in both the .44 mag (300 grain WFN) and .45-70 (Piledriver Jr), and they seem to work pretty good with less meat damage than the jacketed bullets. Keep that in mind if you continue to have a problem finding your favorites. The performance seems to be on par with the expanding bullets in regards to how far the animal goes after the shot, and there is absolutely no concern about hitting bones! I tried some of them after getting concerned about future supplies, and they do work.

That 300 grain Speer, in both .429 and .458, is a real sleeper of a bullet. It is simply a very reliable bullet and suitable for game larger than deer.

This is my go to for 444 and 44 mag Lee's C430-310-RF gas check. These are heavy hitters in both and I've started casting em a tad on the softer side so they come in at almost 320grs.They feed flawlessly and put deer down with authority.

Ooohhhh, dem things have a big ol' flat nose!!

I bet you don't have to worry about penetration.

Excellent penetration and I have to be careful not to fill a second tag if you get my drift.

Gotta love a good cast bullet!! Nice.

Not cast by me, but the ones I use:

.44 Mag rifle, about 1570 fps


.45-70, 1800 fps


Woody, those are some nice ones you've cast.

Thanks fellas I enjoy casting almost as much as shooting and wouldn't think of getting rid of the 444..not a better chambering for cast bullets in the heavily wooded river sloughs I hunt unless it would be a 45/70.

Vic those are great looking bullets in both chamberings.

Those are made by Beartooth Bullets.

I have had excellent results with them. It seems that Marlins seem to want .460" bullets in their .45-70s, and most Ruger firearms tend to run a little big on bore size also, so I use .432" in both rifle and pistol loads.

The little 77/44, which is not particularly known as an accurate rifle, shoots darn good groups at 100 yards using the 300 grain WFN GC, hovering down around 1�". I use Lil gun as the propellent.

I hope to be smacking some deer in the next two weeks with that .45-70, I've already put meat in the freezer with the .44 mag.

They both kill pretty equal. A few things to keep in mind are the two diff twist rates afforded to the 444 depending on the year, the selection and constant improvement of 45/70 cartridges.

I'd take a 45/70

I have the greatest respect for the 45/70 since shooting its bigger brother the 45/110 as heavy 44 or 45 cal bullets at moderate velocities absolutely dispatch game with authority.

This comparison mirrors my handgun hunting experience with the 41 and 44mag for critter killing perimeters as I feel confident choosing either for most hunting scenarios.

If you compare Marlin rifles in 450M and 45/70 side by side you will notice that the ejection port and load port are smaller in the case of the 450. The 450 has a smaller rim and the mag tube is smaller than a 45/70 tube mag, which leaves more metal in the critical area between the bottom of the barrel and the top of the magazine. Marlin also changed the thread type in the 450 (Vee vs Flat thread), again leaving more metal in this critical area. Most examples of blow ups of Marlin rifles as far as I can recall have been 45/70's and have given way at the bottom of the barrel and the side just like in the example posted earlier.

Loaded sensibly a 45/70 is fine but the 450 has more margin for error.

I know the .450 makes one helluva conversion for a bolt rifle chambered in one of the WSM cartridges. At 50 Kpsi, it's a serious thumper.

Don't ask me why, but today I bought a 444 Marlin. The 'SS' model, JM marked, true Marlin, not a Remlin. 1999 mfr date best I can tell (S/N #01XXXXX) It was priced "extremely right". I need it like I need another hole in my head. I have an 1895 45/70.

Probably use the newly acquired 444 as trade material for a 336 SC in 35 Rem . . . .

Ive owned marlins in 44 mag, 444 , 45/70 and 450 marlin,
I still own a marlin in 44 mag and a BROWNING BLR in 450 marlin which each in my opinion are the best choices in 40 caliber or larger lever actions
the 44 mag because its a light,accurate fast handling deer rifle thats a joy to hunt with and carry , I load 310 grain cast gas check bullets over 21 grains of h110, sized .430,low recoil and excellent accuracy.
the 450 BLR because its exceptionally accurate very effective and will flat out stomp most big game at reasonable ranges loaded with those 405 grain remington bullets over 50 grains of IMR3031,(roughtly 1850fps) the 450 marlin caliber BLR feeds better than the 45/70,marlin and its more accurate and having a front locking bolt its stronger, allowing a bit more safety margin

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sea...26&header=.45+Caliber+Reloading+Data


Re: 450 marlin handloads.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 250 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 57.0 2,288
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 60.0 1,970
Remarks: 1.95 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 62.0 2,091
Remarks: 1.80 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 51.5 1,751
Remarks: 2.25 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 53.0 1,869
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 54.0 1,990
Remarks: 1.90 group
300 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 50.0 1,982
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon H-4198 48.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.60 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 59.0 1,770
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 61.0 1,821
Remarks: 1.70 group
350 Kodiak FP IMR IMR-3031 56.0 1,827
Remarks: 1.55 group
350 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-335 60.0 1,872
Remarks: 1.20 group
400 Speer FN Hodgdon H-4895 56.0 1,773
Remarks: 1.75 group
405 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-322 52.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.50 group
405 Magma cast IMR IMR-4198 32.0 1,332
Remarks: 2.00 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 48.0 1,875
Remarks: 1.80 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 50.0 1,960
Remarks: 1.45 group

300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 38.7 1,928
Remarks: start chg
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 43.0 2,096
Remarks: max chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.0 1,716
Remarks: start chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 40.0 1,865
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.2 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 48.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 52.2 2,198
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 58.0 2,389
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 54.9 2,217
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 61.0 2,410
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 58.1 2,226
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 64.5 2,420
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 60.3 2,214
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 67.0 2,407
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 59.4 2,001
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 66.0 2,175
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 56.7 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 63.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 39.4 1,813
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.8 1,971
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 46.1 1,919
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 51.2 2,086
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 50.0 2,030
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 55.5 2,207
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 55.8 2,067
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 62.0 2,247
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 55.8 2,010
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 62.0 2,185
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 54.9 1,892
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 61.0 2,057
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 55.8 1,982
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 62.0 2,154
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 55.8 1,719
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 62.0 1,869
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.9 1,688
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 41.0 1,835
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 41.4 1,732
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 46.0 1,883
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 47.3 1,883
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 52.5 2,047
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 49.9 1,877
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 55.4 2,040
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 54.0 1,909
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 60.0 2,075
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 49.5 1,689
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 55.0 1,836
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 53.1 1,875
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 59.0 2,038
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 53.1 1,620
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 59.0 1,761
Remarks: max chg; compressed load


300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-3031 52.5 1,870
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-4198 44.2 2,000
Remarks: 39,000 psi
300 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-3031 57.0 2,100
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-3031 56.0 2,030
Remarks: 38,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-4198 45.0 2,050
Remarks: 40,000 psi
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-3031 50.8 1,860
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-4198 40.0 1,820
Remarks: 40,000 psi

A lot of you guys are shooting deer with these big boys. Not quite sure what the argument between the two is about if you're shooting deer. Likely at modest range, where a handgun-weight bullet at handgun speed would work just as well.

The utility of both the 444 and 45-70 is in the big and heavy bullets for big and heavy game. Short-range? For some. Most arguments about range on the fire would call 300 yds unethical for a scoped bolt gun. Shooting a 400gr 44 cal bullet in the middle teens will take BIG game at half a mile. Put a 500+ in the 45-70, and you can stretch much farther than that. Not that it would be today's version of ethical, but it would be effective.

For the uninitiated, these are brush guns for modest ungulates. For the enlightened, these are hunt-the-globe-and-yes-even-dangerous-African-game-guns.