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In my June 1957 Outdoor Life, JOC, in his SHOOTING Column writes about the 7x57. Back then he said public and industry pronounced it dead 20 years earlier. But, according to JOC, it keeps sitting up taking nourishment. Even though the ammo was limited and Winchester stopped making it for their Model 70, it will not give up. JOC traces its military history and points out that it was the 7x57 that prompted the US Military to scrap the 30-40Krag and develop the 30-06. He talks of Karamojo Bell "braining" over 1000 elephants with the 175gr. solid. Oddly enough in 1957, the only US made load was a 175gr at about 2490fps. The 139gr load was dropped before WWII. However, Dominion still imported a 139gr load from Canada. JOC was chumming around with the Prince and Princess of Iran. They were worldwide hunters with unlimited funds. JOC had Winchester build a 7x57 for the Princess and in a 1953 African safari, they both used it on 80 head of game.
They used the Remington 175gr load and the Dominion 139gr load. The Prince used it exclusively for his worlwide sheep hunts until JOC gave him a custom 270. JOC wrote quite a bit about handloading for the 7x57. His favorite load was the 160gr Nosler bullet (doesn't say Partition or Solid Base) using either 49gr of No. 4350 or 51gr. of No 4831 (doesn't say IMR or H) but I think it was only IMR back then. He cautions the handloader by saying that Remington brass was thicker than WW brass. Anyway, I thought it was interesting to get a perspective on the 7x57 from "270Jack" that was written 49 years ago!


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He wrote a chapter about the 7x57 in one of his rifle books as well. If I recall, the chapter is called "Big Punch in Little Case." The chapter mentions some of the history of the round that you have referred to and discusses various loads and applications for the cartridge. He appears to have thought quite highly of it as a very effective cartridge that is easy to shoot well.

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The magazine article and book chapter are one and the same. Jack's book THE HUNTING RIFLE was mostly a collection of previously published OUTDOOR LIFE pieces.

Actually the 4831 mentioned was Hodgdon, specifically the surplus powder so designated. IMR's 4831 didn't appeared until the early 1970's, I believe.

O'Connor liked the 7x57 so much that late in life he used it more than the .270, mostly because it kicked less.

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Harvey Donaldson was a big 7x57 fan too. I think that his favorite bullet was a 154 grain Hornady RN.

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I attended the University of Idaho, about 20 miles north of Jack's home in Lewiston. Shortly after he died, I was in a little sporting goods store there, and they had some odds and ends that they'd picked up from his estate. They even had quite a bit of his handloaded ammo. I had a 7 x 57 at the time, so I bought a couple of boxes, and also a box or two of his .270 loads. One box of 7 x 57, Winchester brass I believe, had the name "Bradford" written on it. Jack had a son named Bradford. I still have some of that ammo. I wish I had been able to buy one of his rifles. I believe they may have bought some of his guns as well. Many of his trophies were donated to the University of Idaho, and were on display in the Biological Sciences building. It's been many years since I've been there, but I assume they still have that collection. It was quite impressive.

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MD - "O'Connor liked the 7x57 so much that late in life he used it more than the .270, mostly because it kicked less."
___________________________________________________

In JOC's book, The Complete Book of Rifles and Shotguns," Harper & Row, 1961, he recommends the 7x57 Mauser for Grizzly bears and moose, too.

Also says the best all around calibers for U.S., are .30-06, .280 Rem., .270 Win. 7x57 Mauser, and .308 Win.

I have several of his books, plus the various "Gun Digests" with his articles, and over and above all, JOC stressed bullet placement.

Sounds like a plan to me.

L.W.


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Also says the best all around calibers for U.S., are .30-06, .280 Rem., .270 Win. 7x57 Mauser, and .308 Win.

[A]nd over and above all, JOC stressed bullet placement.

Sounds like a plan to me.

L.W.


Hard to argue with that line of thinking.




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When I first moved to Coeur d'Alene, I drove to Moscow just to see Jack's collection. What a huge disappointment. Mounted heads on walls that said "African Lion" Well duh ! In my opinion little had been done other than just putting the heads up and a name under the head. IIRC, there were a handful of pictures but not nearly what should have been displayed. I would have liked to see when, where, who, with what, etc. about the mounts. Pictures can do that without a lot of narrative.

Before it closed, Intermountain Sports in Merridian, ID, had a display of Elmer Keith's trophies. Lots of pictures and a general good display. Again, background was missing on the mounts but at least the photo's filled in for some of the questions about who, with what, and where.


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Say Tripledeuce, do us a favor and chronograph some of that 7x57 ammo, please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Just reading "Hunting Big Game in NA" where JOC states he used the /06 more than anything else, and thought it the best round for North America, with the 270 second.

Interesting that he got such a reputation for pimping the 270...I think 90% of it was to piss off Keith.

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Say Tripledeuce, do us a favor and chronograph some of that 7x57 ammo, please. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What an excellent idea. I wold love to know the MV of O'Connor's handloads for both the 7x57 and the 270 W.

Please do it and let us know Tripledeuce !


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Actually the 4831 mentioned was Hodgdon, specifically the surplus powder so designated. IMR's 4831 didn't appeared until the early 1970's, I believe.
I believe that this surplus powder was marketed as "4350 Data" powder. It was later called 4831. O'Connor's The Rifle Book , Second Ed., 1964, pg. 78, mentions DuPont 4350 thusly: ".., and of the powders now in use DuPont No. 4350 is the slowest burning of all."

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Well boys, don't get your powders mixed up!
Wasn't the stuff that Bruce Hodgdon sold as H4831 really 20mm canon powder called 4350Data Powder? I mean talk about ruining your day - not to mention the rifle!


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Yes, Jack did like the 7X57. Here is some of his writing about it found in the 1974 Gun Digest. It is some of my favorite writings of his. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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"For almost forty years I've been having an off-and-on romance with a sweet little cartridge known as the 7X57, the 7mm Mauser, and the 7mm Spanish Mauser. There is nothing spetacular about the 7X57. It does not have a big case. Even when the charge is tightly compressed it is possible to get only about 53 grains of 4350 or 4831 powders into the Western 7X57 case, which is roomier than Remington's. This modest little cartridge does not have a belt. It isn't a magnum. It doesn't bellow like a 105 mm howitzer and scramble the brains of the firer. It doesn't shoot through three elk, one moose, two grizzlies, and a forest ranger and then mow down a grove of jack pines on the far side. The hole in the barrel is so small that even a small, thin, underprivileged mouse would have difficulty in entering, and the cartridge itself isn't as long as a maiden's arm.

Yet I think I have seen more game killed with fewer shots from this modest little cartridge than with any other. The explanation for its deadly efficiency does not lie in blinding velocity, in big bullets, in a frightening number of foot pounds of energy. It lies in the light recoil, coupled with the excellent hunting accuracy of so many 7X57s. Those who use it are not afraid of it and, as a consequence, they tend to shoot it well-and to place their shots well. In case no one has told you, the most important factor in killing power is putting that bullet in the right spot."


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It was because of JOC's writing that when I decided to make my wife a rifle, I chose to chamber it in 7x57. I figured if it was good enough for Elenor OConnor, it was good enough for my wife. While I have several 7x57s and have enjoyed them, I've come to regret the choice for my wife. Had to do over again, there would be no second thoughts... it'd be a .308 Win. hands down. The 7x57 wouldn't even get a second thought.

There's been a whole lotta 'stuff' I accepted from JOC when I was young that I have since found was pure and simply wrong. He was great writer... I think less of him than that regarding his "gun knowledge".

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It is because of Jack O'Connor that I bought my 7x57s, including my last one. Have used the caliber on whitetail, mule deer, antelope, elk, coyote, wild hog, javelina, even a wild turkey and have nothing but praise for the caliber. It's the Energizer Bunny of the shooting world, it just keeps going, going and going! Tom Purdom <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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I've always liked the 7x57, and have owned a bunch of military clunkers in the past. I've also read JOCs comments on the cartridge. Yup, I got a Ruger 7x57 for my wife too.

If JOC preferred the 7x57 with a 160 grain, over his 270, 130 grain, I'm surprised that he even noticed the difference in recoil.

The advantage of the 7x57 over the 270, if there is one, would be the 175 grain high SD bullet at a moderate velocity. Isn't that what built the 7x57s reputation for terminal performance in the first place? Maybe I'm wrong. ???
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......... I've come to regret the choice for my wife. Had to do over again, there would be no second thoughts... it'd be a .308 Win. hands down. The 7x57 wouldn't even get a second thought.

Paul


.........and why would that be? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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"Say Tripledeuce, do us a favor and chronograph some of that 7x57 ammo, please."

It will be awhile before I can do that. I don't have a 7 x 57 any longer, and I'm also deployed to Southwest Asia. I'm not really sure what bullet those loads have in them. It seemed like Jack was not scrupulous about writing his load on the box. One of the boxes had kind of a mix and match of different bullets. Some looked like old-style Nosler Partitions with a groove in them, and some looked like Speers. I think I got to the store after his stuff had been somewhat picked over, and I unfortunately didn't get the best of what they undoubtedly had. I just bought it for the novelty of having been loaded by O'Connor himself, though I could never prove it and neither could the store I bought it from. I have no reason to believe it wasn't his stuff though.

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Smitty--

Jck O'Connor was one of the first gun writers to realize the advantages of the Nosler Partition, while many of the rest of the boys were still wallowing around shooting standard bullets. On his later safaris he often used the 140 Partition in the 7x57, because it penetrated plenty on plains game. So there was no need for the 175.

Too many of still theorize about the great advantage the 7mm's have over the .270 due the "wider bullet selection." This one reason some give for choosing a .280 over the .270. Well, gee, but I have run into a lot of .280 users over the years, and only one loaded 175's--and those were Sierras, which on average would penetrate no more than 140 Partitions. Most .280 fans use 140-150 grain bullets--pretty much standard in the .270 these days.

I have pretty much decided that if you can't kill it with one of today's modern 150-grain 7mm's in a 7x57, then you need more cartridge, not more bullet weight.

MD

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