Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Jack O'Connor wrote about the 7x57

Gitano--

Please explain the big advantages of the .308 over the 7x57. I have used both cartridges a lot and have a hard time seeing any difference in field results, recoil, etc.

I can appreciate that the .308 has more factory loads available, at somewhat higher velocities. Also that it is generally slightly more accurate, which I believe is mostly due to more consistent throat dimensions. We could also argue that it fits in a short action, saving us maybe a 1/4 of a pound.

But on big game they work the same.

MD

I've read Jack's article and books since the 50's. It was his writings that got me to buy one of the first 7X57's that Ruger made, hollow bolt knob and all. After using a borrowed 30'06 for my first deer, a cheap Marlin .35 Remington for my second and having gone through two 7 mm Remington Magnums for my next bucks, the 7X57 Ruger was quite a surprise. I found I could shoot that rifle better. Not just off the bench or on a "good day." I could consistantly shoot it better than any of the others. Some of it was a better trigger. Some of it was less recoil. Some of it was simply a nicely balanced rifle with a simple 4X scope.
I cuckled a good deal when Jack wrote of his observations during an african hunt. There were three 7mm rifles in their party. A 7X57, with Nolser Partition handloads. A .280 and a 7mm Remington Magnum were the other two. Again with good ammo. He wrote that he couldn't see any difference in how well any of them killed various african antelope. He and his pals seem to think that the critters shot with the 7X57 may have taken one or two more steps than the 7X57 vs. the other two. He concluded that his comments may have caused a magnum fiend to have a stroke, but that he said is what observed.
I no longer own that 7X57. The action from that rifle is the basis for my custom .280. Since experience has taught me that it is not necessary to get more velocity than the 7X57 to get the job done, I don't worry about getting the last 100 fps from that round. And, sure enough, that rifle does the job. It's a little heavy, 8.5 lbs., but, unlike my other two custom/customized rifles, it doesn't need any modifications done to it to make me happy. E

There was a Guns&Ammo special edition put out a year after JOC left us exclusively on his work. It covered a good range of his writing mainly reporting on a hunt, the rifle used and what happened.

Quite a good read if you can find a copy.

AGW

Lolo's Sporting Goods was the gun shop that sold some of Jack's "stuff'. Mostly ammo and reloading supplys. A couple of gun were also sold at the store, all high dollar/built by big name gunmakers--except one! I still kick myself for passing it up. A 250/3000 FN mauser with a 6X Bear Cub scope, with a rollover check piece stock. Sold for $450. I've seen pictures of it in some of 1954-55 Outdoor Life articals. Pedro

About 28 yrs ago a guy I worked with offered me a FN commercial barreled action in the white with a 6x Weaver mounted and a block of walnut that the action had been inlet into. It was in 7x57. I took it to the range and at 100 yds it shot a dime size group with his handloads. For $75 I couldnt get the money out of my wallet fast enoiugh. It seems his father had built the rifle. His father was a gun constructor at FN and escaped one hop before the nazi's arrived. In the states after the war he took a trip back to Denmark and went to visit the old FN plant where he had worked. He brought back ten actions. He gave a gunsmith 8 of them in payment for barreling two of them with 7x57 barrels, 18 1/2 long. Seems that was the preference for mountain hunting over there. He finished one for himslef with gold and silver inlays on the reciever. He started the next one for his son but died before he finished it. Large gold rose with silver leaves and tendrils on the receiver. This was the one my co-worker offered me. I finished it and it has been my hunting rifle since then. Do I like the 7x57? oh yeah, with 154 gr bullets and IMR 4895 or BLC-2 powder it is a tack driver. Oh, and by the way, the son-Eherling Hagfeldt was with Pattons 3rd army at the end of the war and was his interpretor when Patton sent the cavalry into Checoslovakia to rescue the Lipizaner horses from the Russians. Ehrl spoke fluent German.

ROLLY - "Before it closed, Intermountain Sports in Merridian, ID, had a display of Elmer Keith's trophies. Lots of pictures and a general good display. Again, background was missing on the mounts but at least the photo's filled in for some of the questions about who, with what, and where. "
___________________________________________________

Rolly, I'm acquainted with Gerry Sweet, who was co-owner of Intermountain Sports in Meridian. After they closed (Damn! I hated to see that great sporting goods store close!), I asked Gerry what happened to that fine collection of Elmer Keith's game heads, pictures, etc.?

He told me that they had been on loan from Elmer's son, so they took them back when Intermountain went belly up. Gerry didn't know what the Keiths did with them afterward.

I was in Intermountain many, many times, and always went over to the long wall and stared at those game heads and pictures. The word "envy," would not be adequate to my feelings.

FWIW.

L.W.

And



I think it first needs to be said that I have no intention of engaging in an arguement about the relative virtues of the 7x57 vs the .308 Win. There's no "discussion" there... I won't convince you, and you won't convince me. Second, I've no interest in challenging or joining a praise-fest of JOC. He's already been sainted, and who am I to suggest he isn't one. (It's a rhetorical question if course... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

That said, I'll offer the first-hand experiences I've had with both carridges. If you don't agree... well, that's what horse races are made of. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Above, Mule Deer make's my case in several areas of comparison, so without belaboring those points, I'll go straight to big game "performance" about which Mule Deer asserts "they work the same".

As I said in my initial post, enamored with JOC as a youth, when it came time to make a rifle for my wife, I chose the the cartridge OConnor chose for his wife, the 7x57 Mauser. I waffled back and forth a bit between the .308 Win. and 7x57, but in the end OConnor's influence won out, so she got a custom 7x57 built on a Ruger M77 action. She, armed with the 7x57 and me with a variety of 7mms, wandered the alpine tundra and plains of Montana after caribou, pronghorns and mule deer. Over the course of about 15 years, I got to see quite a few kills made with the 7x57.

It is probably appropriate here to mention another perspective of mine. Doing so will shed a little more light on my attitude about "performance". It will also provide further proof that my heresy is not limited simply to failure to worship OConnor and the 7x57 (or even -gasp, dare I say it - the .270 Win.) but extends far beyond that to reject even more sacred mythologies. (Heresy alert! All you high SD folks better have a seat.) Specifically, except for calibers larger than .40, I prefer light-for-caliber bullets. That preference is based on almost 5 decades of hunting in Alaska, supposedly where"big", "manly", bullets are called for more often than not. For example, I shoot ONLY the Speer 115 grain HP in every form of 7mm I own EXCEPT the 7x57. There are two reasons: first, it is the most precise bullet from those rifles, and second, it flies like a laser, and hits like a sledge hammer. (The 7x57 case however, simply can't drive that bullet to velocities that result in the type of kills I prefer, except at ranges too close for most caribou shots - about 100 yds.) Sectional Density was a relevant bullet characteristic only until we started to have available to the average hunter, choronographs and an understnding of the physics of external ballistics. Today, to put it as nicely as I can, SD is a distraction and really nothing more than a ballistic paper tiger. If you're serious about discussing a bullet's potential for penetration, then the most reliable and appropriate measurement is momentum. (I would be happy discuss this specific point at some length, but I've digressed far enough already.)

In side-by-side kills on caribou, numbering well in excess of 20, I have NEVER seen the 7x57 put one down in it's tracks. NEVER. NOT ONCE. At the same time, while the .308 Win has not accomplished "bang-flops" EVERY time, it has for more than half of them. Let me ralate a specific instance in which the 7x57 performed what would be called "perfectly" by the heavy-for-caliber/high SD crowd.

We had completed a long and exciting stalk on two caribou bulls, and they had no clue to our presence. I positioned my wife to take the closest one but that position didn't allow me to see "my" bull clearly. As a consequence, I had to move to a slightly different spot. From my shooting position, I could see neither my wife or her bull. I told her to shoot when she was ready, and I would follow her shot. My bull was 211 paces away, hers about 100. At her shot and after shooting mine, I leapt to my feet. I saw her caribou high-tailing it straight away from us. Every step that caribou took, was two I would have to carry it. My wife, a novice hunter, wasn't certain she had hit the bull, AND she couldn't reacquire it in her 'scope. I watched that bull run approximately 100 yds, wanting to give my wife every opportunity to shoot it again before I shot it. (Chivalry was paramount, but issues about "food" were a VERY close second. This was a meat hunt, and dinner was running away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Just as I was about to shoot her bull, he started to slow down, and shortly, he stopped. When he did, he had that staddle-legged stance that most experienced hunters recognize as "dead on their feet". As I looked at him closely through my 'scope, I could see "steam" coming out of both his sides. He was indeed "dead on his feet". In a moment, he rolled.

When we got to him, I saw that Susan had made a textbook, broadside shot. The 139 Hornady had gone right behind the shoulder on the right side, trashed both lungs, and exited out the left side, again behind the shoulder. I seriously doubt we "lost" an ounce of meat from that bull. My bull was a different matter. He had been quartering toward me with his head down when I shot. The point of his shoulder was a perfect aimpoint, and the 7mm 115 Speer HP in front of the necked-down 300 Weatherby case, hit precisely where I aimed. At a stepped off 211 paces, the bull folded like a wet rag. I suspect he was unconscious before he hit the ground. HOWEVER, that bullet, hitting exacty where I aimed, did its job well. When we took my bull apart, I couldn't find a piece of bone bigger than my thumbnail within 6" of the point of impact - the shoulder joint. We lost about two pounds of meat from that bull.

"Wait a minute!" you say. "What's that got to do with a comparison to the .308 Win?" Patience is a virtue. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I relate the story to present an example of the "performance" of the 7x57 that illustrates why I don't like it, not to suggest anything about the relative performance of the .308 Win. That comes next. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (Also, I have to admit, I try not to pass up the slightest opportunity to tell a hunting story. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)

The above after-the-shot behaviour of that caribou bull exemplifies the after-the-shot behaviour of almost every caribou I have ever seen shot with the 7x57. They ALWAYS run away SOME distance. Do they also always die? Absolutely. "So", you say. "What's the big deal? Dead is dead." Very true. But you know as well as I do that "dead is dead" is not the point on several levels. (A minor point is that the 7x57 is consistently extolled as "almost magic" in its "lethality". I don't consider animals consistently running around after being shot as conclusive evidence that a particular cartridge's terminal performance is "almost magic".) But there is really a much more relevant point, and it's unrelated to whether a particular cartridge is "sanctified" or not. Regardles of the number of my wife's kills, she was and still is, a "novice" hunter. This is a non-trivial point UNRELATED to her shooting skills, which are excellent. Instead it is an issue of the Hunting experience. I could go on considerably (as you may now realize) about the the internal, external and terminal ballistic performance in the above example, but that's really just fodder for internet and campfire "discussions". What was important about the above example was what my wife felt about the experience, and what role the 7x57 played in shaping that experience.

As we watched the caribou run away, first, my wife doubted her shot. Then, because she was inexperienced, she couldn't re-acquire the bull quickly in her 'scope. More stress. The competitor in her didn't want the outcome to be that I had to shoot her caribou "for her" because she either missed or couldn't "get back on it" in time. Finally, maybe it was only wounded and getting away! None of the above thoughts and emotions are present when an animal falls within a body length or so. And there's my 'rub' with the 7x57 Mauser.

Is the 7x57 an excellent cartridge? You betcha. Is it "up to the task" for caribou and a whole host of other big game? You betcha. Is it the better choice for a novice hunter, with excellent shooting skills, than the .308 Win?

No.

And multiple "bang-flops" from the .308 Win. on caribou , mule deer and pronghorn antelope (using a 130 grain HP <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) are "proof" enough for me to make that assertion.

Paul

Paul,

Excellent stories. However on an "apples to apples" basis ANYTHING punched through both lungs without touching bone or CNS will run around for a while. It is the nature of the shot.

If you hit bone and cause enough assorted trauma from fragmentation, things will B-F much more often. The trade off is you may or may not have fragged more meat. As with many things around the campfire the issue is where something was shot and with what bullet and NOT with the brass case and quantity of powder that pushed said bullet.

"Then again, I could be wrong" ... Dennis Miller

Maybe it�s just the way that I read your post, but it seems to have a bit of an unnecessary rude and disrespectful/sarcastic tone to it. Nobody challenged you to prove that the 308 was a better choice than the 7x57, they just asked why you felt that it was. And what did anybody do to deserve the "Hugs and kisses" crap?

Jeff

Sorry you're offended Jeff. Certainly wasn't my intent. In my opinion, "discussing" the pros and cons of 'favorite' anything requires a certain amount of skin-thickening by the participants.

With respect to "rude" "disrespectful" and "sarcastic"...

Rude - ain't there... Its 'existence' lies indeed in the way you read it.

Disrespectful - Hmmm. Am I supposed to genuflect to someone (other than OConnor)? Is there a hand with a ring I'm supposed to kiss? If so, please let me know the specifics, so that in the future I can exhibit the proper "respect".

Sarcastic - guilty as charged. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This often comes out in me when I see shameless fawning. (Now you see my 'trouble' with "disrepectful". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) Sorry, can't help it. It's gotten me into trouble before... but that doesn't mean it wasn't appropriate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now about the "hugs and kisses". Your response helps me make a good point. If people don't like what you say (write), there's nothing you can say, no matter how nice, that won't be taken offensively. Would you prefer the following instead?


Here's mud in your eye,
Paul

"Hugs and kisses" signatures edited out of all of my posts at 24-hour Campfire.

I've been around for a while and think that the tone of civility, collegiality, courtesy, and mutual respect of this site needs a little work, so I elected myself as the civility police.

I grew up reading JO'C and have always had a lot of respect for his body of work. He wasn't perfect, nobody is, but he was generally acknowledged as the best of an outstand crop of post-WW2 writers. He probably wasn't the best at any particular aspect of shooting, but he was a man for all seasons. Kind of like Barsness, probably not the best at any particular aspect of shooting, but he is well rounded and appears to do his research before he offers an opinion.

BTW, I�ve been shooting the 7x57 since 1970 because JO'C's chapter in The Hunting Rifle spoke to me. Based on my experience in the field with both the 7x57 and 308, I can't see that there is $0.05 difference between the 2 when all other factors are equal. Most any projectile, from most any firearms, that penetrates into the pleural cavity with a modicum of speed will produce clean kills. I can even do it with 60 grain Partitions for a 22-250, or a 95 grain SBT from a 243 WSSM, or a __ grain ______ from a _____, or a .........

Jeff

"Just for the record", you're the second to be offended by my "hugs and kisses". I'm new here at 24-hour Campfire, and I didn't realize there was some 'special', offensive meaning to "hugs and kisses". My apologies to all offended, and it won't happen again.

Paul

Paul,

Interesting post.

I on the other hand have seen not only little barren ground caribou, like those you hunted in Alaska, go down instantly on the spot with a single hit from a 7X57, but have also seen the same on our big Mountain Caribou bulls, which are the size of mature elk. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I guess we have just been lucky! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ted

You write well and appear to be a literate person, so I'm sure that you knew exactly what tone "hugs and kisses" would convey. I perceive it to be a written sneer and don't think that the people asking you to expand on your position, asked in a polite tone BTW, were due a sneer. Like I tell my Daughter, a little kindness and respect costs you nothing, but will earn you meaningful dividends.

Jeff

NOOOOOooooooooo . . . . . .

Say it isn't so . . . . . . .

How will I spend the Winter if I can't argue that the 308 is better than the 7-08/7x57?

Oh well, I guess I can tie flies . . . . .

Did you know that a Wolly Worm is better than . . . . . <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BMT

Not a Wooly Worm! Don't you know that a Hornberg will out fish any wooly worm that was ever tied?

Jeff

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BMT

Compared to many or even most of you who post here my actual hunting experience is minimal, but my reading, research and historical expertise is, let me blow my own horn, frankly, quite high. Smokess ammo with jacketed bullets has been around now for more than a century and the general experience has been that the longer the bullet, the deeper it digs.

True, but now we have X bullets, which go all the way through 98% of the time, almost, but not quite, regardless of bullet lenght.

BMT

And.....there are those of us who have used .270's 7x57's, 6.5x55's for many years....and many kills.....ans SOME of us.....have even taken a lucky Elk with a .243.........(my brother and I did that on the same day in Wyoming about 20 years ago).....so....I say....choose you weapon....and enjoy the sport!!