Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only Been testing the 12GA From Hell--

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.



Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.



Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........



Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.





2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.





3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.





4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.



Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.



Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.



Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US

Ed, I've been following this post and am very impressed with the research you have been doing. I bought a savage 212 two years ago and was very impressed with the gun itself and the speed and accuracy of both hornady ssts and the federal Barnes tipped expanders. That is until I've read whet you have been doing. With this gun in stock form do you have any recommendation of other shekels to try. Both are accurate at 200 yards but I I can get more speed I may be able to get some more distance. Thanks Ryan.

Ryan- We are working toward getting accuracy at
longer ranges, which means more speed needed. Rob on
AR can make you fullbore spitzers, but to get speed
you must use more slower powders and change barrel
to handle pressures.
So with present barrel, got to use lighter sabots,
unfortunately Federal, Hornady, Win , Rem won't
sell us their hotshot components that works good.
That is why we are trying to get a good sabot run
a going. That are sabots of the right size OD and
using resonable priced bullets.


And most sabot guys only accomplish decent groups
at 100yds. So you are ahead of the game a little.
If you want to do the mag work the 212 magazine
can be lenthened to handle 3.5" and you deepen chamber
then you can get more speed easier with our slower
powder loads. Then get sabots out of shorter loads
to start with, like I do with testing.

It is a pain in the ass problem right now for many
thousands of shotgun hunters...Ed

Thanks a lot Ed. Not ready to modify the gun yet! Is there and sabot slugs lighter and faster than the 300 grain hornady sst? Keep up the good work and please keep us up to date on what your doing. Thanks again. Ryan.

There are no factory loads any faster than Hornady.
All the companies top loads about the same. We
could reload the undersize sabot(33 cents ea) and load up
with 300gr Hornady/Speer/etc bullets and get 2500 or
more with hopped up loads in 3" case, but it won't
group for crap. Won't be as good at 30yds as you are
already getting at 200yds. And the the worst
part is the factories know how relatively good their stuff
is and they keep running the prices on up higher.
Some factory loads are over 4 bucks each.
We think that a good sabot can be made for 20 cents
shooting available 40-60 cent bullets, and get
good groups that the shooter would be confident with..Ed

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.



Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.



Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

really do wish i was closer to you or atleast was passing through to take a look at these projects hands on......really cool stuff Ed....

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.



Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.



Some stuff about sabots. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why, they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.



Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.



Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.





Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".




Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....


Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.






Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.





Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.



In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..



Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed