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#6960587 - 10/11/12 Hard Cast Bullet Expectations
SU35 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 12032
This is the best place I can think of to ask a question in regards to hard cast bullets.

I don't cast mine own, yet. So I bought some from Double Tap for my 40 S&W. They are 200 grain bullets.

I shot some into some wet media yesterday and came up with these results. I shot them from 15' at
975 to 990 fps mv.

The bullet penetrated about 6" and
came out weighing 104 grains. Nearly half of its weight lost.

I would have thought these hardcast bullets would have given me more penetration and not lost so much weight. I noticed tiny bullet pieces in the paper I shot into. Like the bullets came apart.

Posting a pic here gives you an idea of what it looks like.

Is this to be expected from a hardcast bullet? Me thinks not?

What say you men of experience here?
Is this normal results?


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#6960797 - 10/11/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: SU35]
458 Lott Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 15311
Loc: Conundrum, Alaska
The problem is "hard cast" is a general term, and doesn't indicate what alloy was used to make the bullet. A bullet that is hard but brittle will come apart as you found. A bullet that is made of a more ductile alloy will not come apart. If the manufacturer used linotype or a silimar alloy then the bullet they produced is hard and brittle.

The only alloy I've used to cast bullets is wheelweights, which yield either a moderate hardness alloy when air cooled, or a hard but not so brittle alloy when heat treated. I've tested my water quenched ww bullets at 1200 fps in glacial silt, and have had them shot at 1100 fps into wet newsprint. Both of those media showed only minor bullet deformation, and deep penetration.

My suggestion is to cast your own bullets out of ww's and add some tin to increase ductility. I'd consider the bullets you bought as a poor bullet, especially at the relatively sedate velocity of ~1000 fps.


Edited by 458 Lott (10/11/12)
_________________________
I'm not a gunwriter, that's 458 win. I'm just a gun-nut in Alaska.

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#6960845 - 10/11/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: 458 Lott]
SU35 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 12032
Greatly appreciate your feedback here, thank you.

I'm going to try and send them back.


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#6961565 - 10/12/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: SU35]
anachronism Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 1182
Loc: Lincoln, NE
set one on an anvil or something similar, then give it a mighty whack with a 3 lb hammer. If the bullet cracks or breaks, it's too hard. If it mashes down into a silver dollar, it's too soft.

Some companies cast from pure linotype, which can be brittle.
_________________________
Those who believe there is safety in numbers never heard of Auschwitz- Me




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#6961817 - 10/12/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: anachronism]
SU35 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 12032
I'll do that.

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#6963996 - 10/12/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: SU35]
SU35 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 12032
To be fair with Doubletap. I contacted them today and the were very alarmed that their bullet lacked penetration and lost so much weight.

They are hunters and use their own product, 40 cal 200 HC bullets on grizzly bear and large buffalo shooting 10mms.

The gentleman I talked with said he had killed a bear using the 40 S&W 200 HC. The bullet penetrating and exiting the bear.

They are sending me gratis, 50 loaded rounds of 40 S&W loaded with their 200's and paying for the return of their bullets so they can inspect them to see what is wrong.

The people I talked with there take great pride in their product and want things to be right.

They expect their HC bullets to penetrate and retain their weight.

Kudos to Doubletap for great customer service.

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#6974354 - 10/16/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: SU35]
EdM Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 9176
Loc: Between Texas & Idaho
Good on them. They are known to make top notch stuff. Another to consider is Montana Bullet Works. They do both air cooled and water quenched. High quality, hand cast and fairly priced. I use them almost exclusively.
_________________________
Conduct is the best proof of character.

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#6976437 - 10/16/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: EdM]
blammer Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 12/16/00
Posts: 9508
Loc: Asheville, NC
Wow! Let us know how the new ones turn out.

I too would have said a "hard cast" should have held together.
_________________________
Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

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#6980881 - 10/18/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: blammer]
selmer Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/04/02
Posts: 6032
Loc: Upper Midwest
Before I was casting my own I traded linotype to a guy for his cast boolits for my .454 Casull Encore barrel. They were an alloy of 2:1 lino:wheelweights - very hard. I had great accuracy and they would run big Iowa whitetails from stem to stern and keep going, no fracturing/brittleness there. Nowadays I cast softer boolits for my .357 Maximum and .30 caliber rifles and have great results as well.
_________________________
Selmer

"Daddy, can you sometime maybe please go shoot a water buffalo so we can have that for supper? Please? And can I come along? Does it taste like deer?"
- my 3-year old daughter smile

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#7010523 - 10/27/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: selmer]
Twinkletoes Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Prince of Wales Is., Ak
To the contrary Blammer, the harder the lead, the more likely it is to shatter or break, depending primarly on the hardening eliment! Lead(galina) in it's natural state is a chrystaline.
Smelting will reduce it to a soft solid, however, if you add another chrystiline as a hardner, such as antimony,in quanitys in excess of 6--8% the lead will once again become chrystaline!
On the average, wheel wieght lead is 95% lead, 2% tin and 3% antimony.
I use nothing harder then WW lead. Some times I will add a bit more tin, to make it flow better, and make it a smidgen harder, and if I want the bullet a bit harder, without altering the alloy, I will water quench.
I've had #2 bullet lead, which is 92% lead, 2% tin 6% antimony,
shot at velocitys over 2000fps, actually explode!

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#7011880 - 10/27/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: Twinkletoes]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 16056
Loc: The Hawkeye State
The more antimony, the more the alloy will shed in large fragments as impact speed goes up.

But even lino would hold together well at 40 speeds.

Some seriously suspect alloy....
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" 'Hey look at me!' Who gives a schit about YOU. There's ten other guys out there".
Dick Butkus


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#7014604 - 10/28/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: Twinkletoes]
blammer Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 12/16/00
Posts: 9508
Loc: Asheville, NC
Originally Posted By: Twinkletoes
To the contrary Blammer, the harder the lead, the more likely it is to shatter or break, depending primarly on the hardening eliment! Lead(galina) in it's natural state is a chrystaline.
Smelting will reduce it to a soft solid, however, if you add another chrystiline as a hardner, such as antimony,in quanitys in excess of 6--8% the lead will once again become chrystaline!
On the average, wheel wieght lead is 95% lead, 2% tin and 3% antimony.
I use nothing harder then WW lead. Some times I will add a bit more tin, to make it flow better, and make it a smidgen harder, and if I want the bullet a bit harder, without altering the alloy, I will water quench.
I've had #2 bullet lead, which is 92% lead, 2% tin 6% antimony,
shot at velocitys over 2000fps, actually explode!


yea, sure, whatever, lets just say you have a lot to learn.

I was just hoped the OP would follow up with what the manufacturer said. Hunting bullets are not suppose to 'shatter'.
_________________________
Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

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#7019002 - 10/29/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: blammer]
Twinkletoes Offline
Member

Registered: 10/05/12
Posts: 212
Loc: Prince of Wales Is., Ak
Indeed Blammer, if a day goes by that you do not learn something, then that day is wasted. I must admit, in my close to 80 years, I have had some wasted days. However, in my over 60 years of casting, I figure that I do know more then enuff to continue to cast!
Twink

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#7019204 - 10/29/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: Twinkletoes]
blammer Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 12/16/00
Posts: 9508
Loc: Asheville, NC
Good deal!

Keep on Casting!


Edited by blammer (10/29/12)
_________________________
Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

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#7021944 - 10/30/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: 458 Lott]
Creeker Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/11
Posts: 520
Loc: In The Hardwoods
Originally Posted By: 458 Lott
The problem is "hard cast" is a general term, and doesn't indicate what alloy was used to make the bullet.


Agree. Seems most casters using 92-6-2 call them hard cast. The alloy I get of this mix will test 15 BHN when air cooled. It passes the hammer test.

Most my casting though is done with WWs these days & the ones I mostly get are 12-13 BHN.
_________________________
Joshua 1:9

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#7063492 - 11/11/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: Creeker]
Alan_R_McDaniel_Jr Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/14/08
Posts: 3073
Loc: Goliad, TX
I've cast some straight linotype in rifle bullets (150 and 165 gr 30 cal for 30-30 and 30-06 and 8mm 175 gr) and shot them into earthen backdorps at 100 yards (speeds up to 2300 fps [by the book not chronnied]) and then dug them out. Some of them (unless they hit a rock) look like I could load them again.

My experience has been that getting the alloy too hot can cause crystallization and the bullets will shatter and can be crushed into fragments with a pair of pliers. I try to keep my pot at the lowest temp possible to keep the lead molten and fill the molds.

Alan
_________________________
Food is at the core of Hunting and Fishing - Rebecca Gray


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#7112913 - 11/26/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: Alan_R_McDaniel_Jr]
Klikitarik Online   sick
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13289
Loc: Alaska - N63º, W162º
My casting is hardly very technical; I use whatever lead alloys I can acquire locally, usually centered on the lead core from old gill-net lead lines. I add solder when necessary to get uniform fill in my molds, adding high antimony birdshot to add hardness if I need it. I expect good penetration in the spruce logs we find on our beaches for firewood, erring toward lead 'smearing' rather than crumbling or breaking up.



This is a bull I shot today with a 320 Lyman .452 from around 200 yards. The bullet launcher was a Winchester 94 Trapper in 45 Colt. The bullet struck the bull square in the left shovel, punched his chest just aft of the shoulder blade, and exited the right rear hindquarter. Lungs were quite thoroughly stirred in spite of the dowel-like holes in and out.
_________________________
I will henceforth eat vegetarian, relying only on fish, fowl, and beasts of the land to process my vegetables for me.

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#7114204 - 11/26/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: Klikitarik]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 809
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
cool
Result.
_________________________
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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#7114850 - 11/26/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: VonGruff]
blammer Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 12/16/00
Posts: 9508
Loc: Asheville, NC
I like!
_________________________
Whatever you are willing to put up with, is exactly what you will have.

When your ship comes in. ... make sure you are willing to unload it.

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#7118763 - 11/28/12 Re: Hard Cast Bullet Expectations [Re: blammer]
340mag Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 2340


Edited by 340mag (11/28/12)

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